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JTR Noesis 228HT - The best speaker you never heard of for ~ $1200 pricepoint. - Page 5

post #121 of 454
2/26/13 at 8:23am
I will say this though, my friend build a pair of SEOS Tempest speakers with 12 inch drivers, the speaker was about the same size as my old eD Cinema 12's and the sensitivity was around 4 dbs less than the eD's. The frequency response in my room was incredible. We measured them to below 30hz in here!!! So I guess it's possible, the Tempest must have had 95ish sensitivity or something real close to that. Running them full range was extremely impressive for a speaker that size.




So maybe we are wrong? Maybe it is possible to be flat to 20hz with 98 db sensitivity in a speaker that size?
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post #122 of 454
2/26/13 at 9:04am
I don't see why it isn't possible or why they would have compression/nonlinearity issues. They are using two pro 10" woofers and three supposedly custom tweeters in a massive ported box. As Carp said, the Jeff Bagby designed Tempest and Zephyr dig down into the 30's in a 2cuft box with only one 12" woofer and are 95-96db sensitivity and 8ohms. You can get the complete kit for a Tempest for $388 each shipped and put it together yourself with some glue, clamps and a drill. Not a bad deal at all.
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post #123 of 454
2/26/13 at 10:06am
Quick question. The Pendragon reviewer said that when listening to music he could tell that one performer was sitting down and the other was standing. He implied that is was something special about the speaker that made this possible.

Is it even possible with 2 channel music to convey information about the differential height of music source?
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post #124 of 454
2/26/13 at 1:19pm
Thread Starter 
No

Well I suppose so with a ridiculously designed speaker. Say you had one driver aimed down covering frequencies a tuba would play,and one driver faced up covering frequencies a flute would play..... you might get that sense, but that'd be a very odd design with atypical complex specifically designed crossovers that would be very specific to eccentric design and use case.

Simple answer - no.
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post #125 of 454
2/26/13 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

No

Well I suppose so with a ridiculously designed speaker. Say you had one driver aimed down covering frequencies a tuba would play,and one driver faced up covering frequencies a flute would play..... you might get that sense, but that'd be a very odd design with atypical complex specifically designed crossovers that would be very specific to eccentric design and use case.

Simple answer - no.
It kind of makes me question the validity of an otherwise reasonable review.
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post #126 of 454
2/26/13 at 2:04pm
It's an interesting question. There are definitely spatial cues contained in sound. For example, with a good pair of speakers and a recording with the right information sounds can be either towards the front or rear of the soundstage and in the middle or off to the sides. I wonder if his brain was picking up on the distance between the two singers and putting one higher than the other where someone else might picture one deeper in the soundstage than the other.
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post #127 of 454
2/26/13 at 2:14pm
Thread Starter 
You need three of anything to make reliable 3d space references.

Center Soundstage in stereo listening is really tricks of the mind based on the proper alignment of the time domain.

Take any set of stereo speakers with an awesome center soundstage presence and delay the left or right channel independently and the center soundstage comes unglued. I've been playing with this a lot lately. It's pretty cool to get that center channel sound in stereo when not in the traditional center of the equalateral triangle by properly adjusting distances and channel levels! Of course it's only good for one seat but it can be done. As to height differences...impossible to reliably send that effect in different rooms and setups with traditional front facing speakers.
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post #128 of 454
2/26/13 at 2:38pm
Submitted for your approval.


http://www.stereophile.com/features/772/index.html

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php
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post #129 of 454
2/26/13 at 2:49pm
Thank you. Interesting read. When I get my systems unpacked and back up and running, I'll test it out. I'll try with some Magnepan 3.7's and some Philharmonic 3's and some SEOS designs when I get them built. I'm tempted to buy some Pendragons too just to see what the hype is about.
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post #130 of 454
2/26/13 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Thank you. Interesting read. When I get my systems unpacked and back up and running, I'll test it out. I'll try with some Magnepan 3.7's and some Philharmonic 3's and some SEOS designs when I get them built. I'm tempted to buy some Pendragons too just to see what the hype is about.
I bet that the reviewer would have been just as excited or even more excited by the Noesis 228HT's if that is what he was sent to review.
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post #131 of 454
2/26/13 at 3:02pm
Possibly. There's an easy way to find out. Jeff could send some speakers out for review somewhere. Some published reviews/measurements would be useful to many. I wish the Pendragon reviewer had posted some measurements. I'm curious how well the Noesis image as the T8's I had were not very good in that regard but the Noesis could be better. I'm also curious how the Noesis compare to the SEOS designs.
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post #132 of 454
2/26/13 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I'm also curious how the Noesis compare to the SEOS designs.

Here you go, I've heard the Tempest in my room very impressed. Not on the same level as the 212 Noesis but not a fair comparison at that price point.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450390/l-r-seos-tempest-build-jeff-bagby-design/30#post_22821055
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post #133 of 454
2/26/13 at 3:12pm
Oops, meant to post this link but it's in the same thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450390/l-r-seos-tempest-build-jeff-bagby-design/30#post_22821716
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post #134 of 454
2/26/13 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

It kind of makes me question the validity of an otherwise reasonable review.

Not to derail but a week ago I was at a friends house who has a completely treated room + Triad LCR Golds and I could've sworn I could hear (or my mind was) some notes playing "lower" than others. Good imaging?
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post #135 of 454
2/26/13 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Not to derail but a week ago I was at a friends house who has a completely treated room + Triad LCR Golds and I could've sworn I could hear (or my mind was) some notes playing "lower" than others. Good imaging?
You have only two ears.

There's no position you can hear in reality you cannot fake in headphones.

Being in the room (and less control of isolation) makes that a bit harder for speakers; but you can image quite a bit with a good setup.
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post #136 of 454
2/26/13 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Not to derail but a week ago I was at a friends house who has a completely treated room + Triad LCR Golds and I could've sworn I could hear (or my mind was) some notes playing "lower" than others. Good imaging?

From dryeye's post above. Apparently it is possible to discern height information from a two channel system.
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post #137 of 454
2/26/13 at 3:22pm
I've never heard the Tekton. I've never heard the JTR. To hear other people who have never heard the Tekton poo-poo the speaker and bash other's reviews while saying how much better their speaker must be really makes me far less likely to seek out a JTR speaker in the future.
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post #138 of 454
2/26/13 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

I've never heard the Tekton. I've never heard the JTR. To hear other people who have never heard the Tekton poo-poo the speaker and bash other's reviews while saying how much better their speaker must be really makes me far less likely to seek out a JTR speaker in the future.
Actually I think that people were pretty impressed with the Tekton based on the specifications, which are pretty much identical to the specifications of the speaker that this thread is about, at a similar price. I think there was some reasonable discussion of the speaker and the review. Including discussion of differences in design such as horns, compression drivers, front versus rear porting and bass extension. I mentioned something in the review that I did not think was possible and someone corrected me. I do not think anyone "poo-pooed" the speaker or the review. Should we have all said that we want to sell our speakers and change to this other similar speaker?
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post #139 of 454
2/26/13 at 3:56pm
I must have missed the poo poo too.
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post #140 of 454
2/26/13 at 4:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I must have missed the poo poo too.

What I was mostly responding to:

Technically #130 which is dismissive of someone's excitement.

"It kind of makes me question the validity of "

"I'm guessing that there will be gobs of compression as the volume increases. I cant imagine everything will remain linear as you push them."

But perhaps I am just over-reading. It can be very hard to read inflection accurately in text... perhaps harder than making good 3D imaging out of two speakers wink.gif
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post #141 of 454
2/26/13 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

You have only two ears.

There's no position you can hear in reality you cannot fake in headphones.

Being in the room (and less control of isolation) makes that a bit harder for speakers; but you can image quite a bit with a good setup.

I'm sorry but I'm not getting what you are saying?
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post #142 of 454
2/26/13 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

What I was mostly responding to:

Technically #130 which is dismissive of someone's excitement.

"It kind of makes me question the validity of "

"I'm guessing that there will be gobs of compression as the volume increases. I cant imagine everything will remain linear as you push them."

But perhaps I am just over-reading. It can be very hard to read inflection accurately in text... perhaps harder than making good 3D imaging out of two speakers wink.gif
Well, I guess it was my fault then.

What I was getting at in that post, was that the reviewer seemed to be getting his first taste of high efficiency speakers and their effortless dynamics. Had they been JTR speakers, I think that he would have felt the same. My comment about him possibly being more excited about the JTR's had to do with the fact that I think the horns may image better than the array of tweeters. Just an opinion and an attempt to get the thread back on to the topic of the speakers it was started for rather than a competitor, however worthy that competitor may be.

The other quotes were corrected or disputed by other forum members, many of whom are also JTR fans or owners.
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post #143 of 454
2/26/13 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

You have only two ears.

There's no position you can hear in reality you cannot fake in headphones.

Being in the room (and less control of isolation) makes that a bit harder for speakers; but you can image quite a bit with a good setup.
It makes sense, now that you say that. I guess I have just never tried to listen for height information before. I will have to pay attention to see if I can pick it out.
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post #144 of 454
2/26/13 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

Well, I guess it was my fault then.

What I was getting at in that post, was that the reviewer seemed to be getting his first taste of high efficiency speakers and their effortless dynamics. Had they been JTR speakers, I think that he would have felt the same. My comment about him possibly being more excited about the JTR's had to do with the fact that I think the horns may image better than the array of tweeters. Just an opinion and an attempt to get the thread back on to the topic of the speakers it was started for rather than a competitor, however worthy that competitor may be.

The other quotes were corrected or disputed by other forum members, many of whom are also JTR fans or owners.

Are you talking about Andrew Robinson?
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post #145 of 454
2/26/13 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Are you talking about Andrew Robinson?
Yes, he seemed to be having a reaction similar to my own, when I first heard the JTR's. However, since he has undoubtedly heard many other speakers of the same quality as the Pendragons in his line of work, I think it was some of that reaction coupled with disbelief that they cost so little. I think he would feel similarly about the JTR's based on other owners who have compared them so favorably to other much more expensive speakers. There does not seem to be much out there in this niche other than JTR, Seaton, Danley and possibly Tekton.

They are very similar designs. My older model T8's even use the same brand woofers as the Pendragons, although I do not know what Jeff is using now. I conceptually like Jeff's implementation better for use as an HT speaker, but I am sure the Pendragons are amazing as well.
Edited by Jedirun - 2/26/13 at 6:49pm
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post #146 of 454
2/26/13 at 6:41pm
and Genelec, JBL, Procella, Pi, CHT, Klipsch & Gedlee....

not to mention the DIY designs
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post #147 of 454
2/26/13 at 6:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

and Genelec, JBL, Procella, Pi, CHT, Klipsch & Gedlee....

not to mention the DIY designs
Yes, but many of those and probably Danley as well are in another price bracket, and DIY takes skills that many of us do not possess.
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post #148 of 454
2/26/13 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

What I was mostly responding to:

Technically #130 which is dismissive of someone's excitement.

"I'm guessing that there will be gobs of compression as the volume increases. I cant imagine everything will remain linear as you push them."

But perhaps I am just over-reading. It can be very hard to read inflection accurately in text... perhaps harder than making good 3D imaging out of two speakers wink.gif

That was me, and I'll explain. These Pendragons are claiming flat frequency response from 20hz-30khz. With power handling of 200W, they're saying these speakers will hit around 120db at 1m. Do you see what I'm getting at here? How many subwoofers with 10" drivers can do that cleanly? And subs are generally crossed over around 80hz. These 10" drivers are going to have to cover at least a few hundred hz (around 1000hz most likely), and we're expected to believe they'll play at those levels with little to no compression and stay linear? I don't think so. I'm positive they can hit the low notes at moderate volumes, but not cleanly when being pushed aggressively. It's just basic science.
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post #149 of 454
2/26/13 at 7:59pm
Thread Starter 
I just tried the links at the following URL
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

The 228HT has great stereo imaging - sounds like the center speaker is on in Stereo. But I'd have to willingly swallow a placebo pill to believe I was hearing the things exactly as described in that link. I wagered you'd be just as likely to confirm the sounds were going down as up if you were told in the accompanying reading that they were supposed to be doing so. So I called my Wife down to do a little test. I had her sit in the sweet spot and I played all five tracks for her telling her they were tracks that would move speaker to speaker and that she should draw what the sound did.

The first one she drew left to right
the second right to left
3rd she drew an arch (interesting because that is correct)
4th she drew a straight line (also correct)
5th she drew below the speakers

I asked her to identify the last three separately again blind in random order. She missed 2 and got one right in the retest. Oddly enough the one she got right was the arched one.

So there is some sort of trickery going on with arch in my limited testing with my wife as the subject.

If you can do height - then you should be able to depth, but I don't see demos of that - even in binaural recordings. Binaural tracks with headphones are very cool, but even that doesn't really do height that I've heard. And that's very much not what the mention of spacial height recognition was talking about in that review --- they were talking about a regular recorded track having height imaging - - not a binaural recording specifically recorded with many mics and custom made to offer a surround sound like experience on your headhones. Regular/typical recorded music containing height information ---- shouldn't be happening.


I'm thinking of the requirement of triangulation being required to pick out an object (sound) in 3d space. Perhaps that's not appropriate - but that's what originally came to my mind and why I said three sources required for true 3d spacial recognition.
http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/positioning.htm
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post #150 of 454
2/26/13 at 9:13pm
My guess would be that if you are hearing height, it is an interpolation or invention of your mind. The brain has a powerful influence over our senses and is great at filling in the gaps. If you expect a helicopter to fly over your head as it pans to the surrounds, it will probably sound like that to you.

Most sounds come from a single source, so it wouldn't make any sense to need 3 sources to pinpoint a sound. The triangulation comes in to play at the sensory side. We only have two ears, so it's not perfect, but we use a combination of visual correlation and intuition to locate the source of a sound. Most people will look in the right direction when a loud noise suddenly happens because the brain knows how source location affects the sound. Sounds off to one side will hit one ear before the other, things behind us sound different probably because of how they interact with the ear lobe and skull, etc. I'm sure there are cues for height as well, but I don't know very much about how this stuff works.
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