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JTR Noesis 228HT - The best speaker you never heard of for ~ $1200 pricepoint. - Page 6

post #151 of 536
Quick jump in for a few comments. There are most certainly cues for height. The shape of our ears plays a part in how sounds from different directions are heard slightly differently, and thereby there are some spectral (frequency response) changes and reflection interactions which we perceive to equate to changes in height. It is obviously a much weaker perception than our ability to distinguish lateral image locations. Some recordings will capture or manufacture aspects of this, and some setups skew images higher or lower, sometimes differently for different frequency ranges.
Edited by Mark Seaton - 2/27/13 at 9:53am

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #152 of 536
In addition to the actual science, there is a lot of "magical thinking" in audio. rolleyes.gif
post #153 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

What I was mostly responding to:

Technically #130 which is dismissive of someone's excitement.

"I'm guessing that there will be gobs of compression as the volume increases. I cant imagine everything will remain linear as you push them."

But perhaps I am just over-reading. It can be very hard to read inflection accurately in text... perhaps harder than making good 3D imaging out of two speakers wink.gif

That was me, and I'll explain. These Pendragons are claiming flat frequency response from 20hz-30khz. With power handling of 200W, they're saying these speakers will hit around 120db at 1m. Do you see what I'm getting at here? How many subwoofers with 10" drivers can do that cleanly? And subs are generally crossed over around 80hz. These 10" drivers are going to have to cover at least a few hundred hz (around 1000hz most likely), and we're expected to believe they'll play at those levels with little to no compression and stay linear? I don't think so. I'm positive they can hit the low notes at moderate volumes, but not cleanly when being pushed aggressively. It's just basic science.

Well there you go expecting specifications to occur simultaneously. wink.gif A full range speaker driven with pink noise will probably see 1/10th-1/6th of that power in the range where excursion is an issue, where such a rating makes sense for musical power handling. The incorrect jump is the readers expecting a speaker will take a 200W sine wave at any frequency in the range, or even further expecting it to handle that within linear limits with no indication from the manufacturer that this is the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Are you talking about Andrew Robinson?
Yes, he seemed to be having a reaction similar to my own, when I first heard the JTR's. However, since he has undoubtedly heard many other speakers of the same quality as the Pendragons in his line of work, I think it was some of that reaction coupled with disbelief that they cost so little. I think he would feel similarly about the JTR's based on other owners who have compared them so favorably to other much more expensive speakers. There does not seem to be much out there in this niche other than JTR, Seaton, Danley and possibly Tekton.

They are very similar designs. My older model T8's even use the same brand woofers as the Pendragons, although I do not know what Jeff is using now. I conceptually like Jeff's implementation better for use as an HT speaker, but I am sure the Pendragons are amazing as well.

There are some distinct differences between the designs from JTR, Danley, myself and others vs. Tekton. Tekton has obviously made efficiency a priority in most all of their products, but the driver and physical layouts also make it clear that directivity, off axis consistency and power response are a very low priority. So while it is inevitable that they will be compared, remember they are contrasting approaches and alternates, and not equivalents.

Back to the sideline in this JTR thread...
post #154 of 536
Jonathan - We'll have to chat/catch up on more of your thoughts of the 228's soon! These do seem like a great buy for sure.
post #155 of 536
Thank you Mark. Your posts are always very educational.
post #156 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

There are most certainly ques for height.
This is the second time in the past 5 days you have used "ques" for "cues" and it is bothering me. tongue.gif You have used it as far back as 2001 in response to a post by Dennis Erskine in which he used "cues" four times. Now I'm curious if you are using "ques" for "cues" intentionally? biggrin.gif
post #157 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

There are most certainly ques for height.
This is the second time in the past 5 days you have used "ques" for "cues" and it is bothering me. tongue.gif You have used it as far back as 2001 in response to a post by Dennis Erskine in which he used "cues" four times. Now I'm curious if you are using "ques" for "cues" intentionally? biggrin.gif

Wow, I missed that completely. Thank you so I can stop that. I suspect this comes from wrestling with suppliers and vendors all day to figure out where products are in the que to be built or delivered! I will be sure to take the cue and keep them sorted. redface.gif
post #158 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Wow, I missed that completely. Thank you so I can stop that. I suspect this comes from wrestling with suppliers and vendors all day to figure out where products are in the que to be built or delivered! I will be sure to take the cue and keep them sorted. redface.gif

This is either pure comedy or I have to call you out one more time smile.gif It is "queue" ...I suggest you stay with making fantastic speakers and leave the posting to the professionals tongue.gif
post #159 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Wow, I missed that completely. Thank you so I can stop that. I suspect this comes from wrestling with suppliers and vendors all day to figure out where products are in the que to be built or delivered! I will be sure to take the cue and keep them sorted. redface.gif

This is either pure comedy or I have to call you out one more time smile.gif It is "queue" tongue.gif

Both! redface.gif I chalk it up to lazy/fast typing and a bad co-mingling of the homophones. At least I usually keep there, their and they're straight! Fortunately spelling/grammar is a lesser requirement in designing speakers and subwoofers. rolleyes.gif
post #160 of 536
Thread Starter 
post #161 of 536
Hi Everyone,

I have an opportunity to pick up a set of 2012 T8s that I could use for my LCR. The other option is to order 3 228s.
The T8s will be about about $1000 less since they are pre-owned.

Are the 228s worth a $1000 more? Willing to pay more if it is well worth it.

I have not heard these speakers yet and would love to hear everyone's opinions.

My room is 15 x 14 x 10 and it will be primarily be used as a home theater.

Thanks!
post #162 of 536
That's really a tough question to ask as there's only a very small handful of guys that have heard the new 228hts. And how speakers sound to one person compared to another is very subjective. Really the first page of this thread I believe has the impressions of how these compare to the Triple 8HT and those guys are the only people that have heard the new 228ht's as far as I know.
post #163 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerky View Post

Hi Everyone,

I have an opportunity to pick up a set of 2012 T8s that I could use for my LCR. The other option is to order 3 228s.
The T8s will be about about $1000 less since they are pre-owned.

Are the 228s worth a $1000 more? Willing to pay more if it is well worth it.

I have not heard these speakers yet and would love to hear everyone's opinions.

My room is 15 x 14 x 10 and it will be primarily be used as a home theater.

Thanks!
Basically, I think all the people who have listened to both speakers said that the 228's sounded better than T8's, but they had heard the T8's at a different time, and some in a different setting. 2012 T8's at $1000 less than the presale price for the 228's is a phenomenal deal.
post #164 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerky View Post

Hi Everyone,

I have an opportunity to pick up a set of 2012 T8s that I could use for my LCR. The other option is to order 3 228s.
The T8s will be about about $1000 less since they are pre-owned.

Are the 228s worth a $1000 more? Willing to pay more if it is well worth it.

I have not heard these speakers yet and would love to hear everyone's opinions.

My room is 15 x 14 x 10 and it will be primarily be used as a home theater.

Thanks!

Hearing both the 888's and 228's in my room (not at the same time unfortunately) I thought the 228's were smoother, less fatiguing, and had just an overall more pleasing sound than the 888's did. I'm not saying I didn't like the 888's, I just liked the 228's more. If it were me I would pay 1000 more, but I listen to my system all the time so for me it would be worth it.

However, you say music won't be played much and for me the differences between speakers become much more apparent for music than movies.
post #165 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Well there you go expecting specifications to occur simultaneously. wink.gif A full range speaker driven with pink noise will probably see 1/10th-1/6th of that power in the range where excursion is an issue, where such a rating makes sense for musical power handling. The incorrect jump is the readers expecting a speaker will take a 200W sine wave at any frequency in the range, or even further expecting it to handle that within linear limits with no indication from the manufacturer that this is the case.
There are some distinct differences between the designs from JTR, Danley, myself and others vs. Tekton. Tekton has obviously made efficiency a priority in most all of their products, but the driver and physical layouts also make it clear that directivity, off axis consistency and power response are a very low priority. So while it is inevitable that they will be compared, remember they are contrasting approaches and alternates, and not equivalents.

Back to the sideline in this JTR thread...
Reading your response again and looking at the specifications of some of the audiophile speakers that the reviewer from Hometheaterreview.com, I feel even more strongly that had the reviewer's first experience with high efficiency home speakers been with your designs or JTR's, he would have been even more impressed than he was with the Tektons.

I am sure that specifications do not tell the whole story, but it is amazing to me how much better speakers from JTR and Seaton Sound look on paper than speakers costing 10's of thousands of dollars. I wonder how many of these so called expert reviewers, have never really experienced what designs like yours can deliver.
post #166 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

Reading your response again and looking at the specifications of some of the audiophile speakers that the reviewer from Hometheaterreview.com, I feel even more strongly that had the reviewer's first experience with high efficiency home speakers been with your designs or JTR's, he would have been even more impressed than he was with the Tektons.

I am sure that specifications do not tell the whole story, but it is amazing to me how much better speakers from JTR and Seaton Sound look on paper than speakers costing 10's of thousands of dollars. I wonder how many of these so called expert reviewers, have never really experienced what designs like yours can deliver.

The JTRs will be tough to impress Andrew as he has experience with the Meyer X-10s and JBL pro gear in his mixing room now lol. I'm sure he would still definitely be impressed by the costs of the JTRs; easily the best bang for your back imho. JTR should've gotten to him first!!
post #167 of 536
How do you guy's think these would compare to the Adam GTC 77's, which have a similar price point.
post #168 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post

How do you guy's think these would compare to the Adam GTC 77's, which have a similar price point.
Going by specifications only, having never heard the Adam speakers, they are not really in the same league.
post #169 of 536
Jedi,

Why do you feel they are not in the same league?
post #170 of 536
Well for starters I would have to say with a sensitivity of only 88db and the JTR's would be a whole lot more dynamic then the GTC 77's.
post #171 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post

Jedi,

Why do you feel they are not in the same league?
Yeah, like jbrown15 said. While sensitivity isn't everything, without it, you will need more power and are likely to run into compression and distortion when turning things up. With higher efficiency designs, both the amp and the speaker are operating far from their limits, leading to distortion free sound, as loud as you would care to listen.
post #172 of 536
Ever though the review claims, "no dynamic compression"
post #173 of 536
I am sure Andrew Robinson is aware of JTR speakers. Has Mark sent in a pair for him to review ? What about sending a pair to other prominent reviewers ? I started looking at tekton after Andrew's review. After more research I ended up buying them and am very happy. I bought HSU sub based on expert reviews as well. For the ID speaker companies i would never buy their product just on AVS forum boards. I look at dozens of reviews from expert reviewers and see which person tastes in products are similar to mine. THen i also look at forum posts. It would be nice to get someone from audioholics, or home theater to do a review.
post #174 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

I am sure Andrew Robinson is aware of JTR speakers. Has Mark sent in a pair for him to review ? What about sending a pair to other prominent reviewers ? I started looking at tekton after Andrew's review. After more research I ended up buying them and am very happy. I bought HSU sub based on expert reviews as well. For the ID speaker companies i would never buy their product just on AVS forum boards. I look at dozens of reviews from expert reviewers and see which person tastes in products are similar to mine. THen i also look at forum posts. It would be nice to get someone from audioholics, or home theater to do a review.
I would not be surprised if he has not heard of them. I think there are fewer out there than their presence on the forums would suggest. JTR is pretty much a 1 man operation and no matter how hard Jeff works, he can not equal the output of larger operations.

I have always wished that Jeff would send some speakers to a professional reviewer, but that may not be something he can do or even wants to do. Sometimes, growing too fast can be worse than growing too slow.

This is not a dig at Andrew Robinson because I have only read his review of the Pendragons which seemed well thought out, and I have no doubt that they are excellent speakers. However, I have stopped going to sites to read the reviews of "expert reviewers". This is because it is very rare to read a negative review, and they often seem to push things like overpriced electronic sources and cables. In any event, I think that there is an incentive to write a positive review, so that people will keep sending you gear to evaluate. Because of this, I actually prefer the opinions of fellow gearheads on the forums over the experts. Even with ownership bias thrown in.

Auditioning gear for yourself is even better, but, of course, it can be impossible with Internet direct companies.
post #175 of 536
Jeff comes out with different designs and upgrades to current designs so often that if he did send one out for review that by the time the review came out it would already be outdated with his latest design or upgrade. biggrin.gif
Chris
post #176 of 536
Jeff has said he would like to have all of his products measured/reviewed by a 3rd party. It is a time and resource issue. It isn't like there are professional speaker reviewers out there who have the equipment and expertise to do this correctly just sitting around waiting for speakers to measure/review. They need to be paid for the service unless they are doing this for a magazine or a website and since these products do not have mass appeal that dog won't hunt.

Jeff was going to send a CAP1000 to Josh Ricci for measurements but I think there were bandwidth issues that pushed it back. I would have loved to have him send the OS just so folks would stop conjecturing about the OS's performance. Basically, it is a lot more complicated than folks think and that is why Seaton, Danley and JTR have not done it.
post #177 of 536
Andrew Robinson uses 14 dollar monoprice cables so I don't think he is one of those snooty reviewers. Tekton is no bigger then jtr . You call the number and you talk to the owner. If they wanted a review they could get one or take their product to a tradeshow. I am sure at some point they will and they will probably get a great review . Sounds like a solid product . I love internet companies because I think you get way more bang for your bucks.
post #178 of 536
Andrew Robinson uses 14 dollar monoprice cables so I don't think he is one of those snooty reviewers. Tekton is no bigger then jtr . You call the number and you talk to the owner. If they wanted a review they could get one or take their product to a tradeshow. I am sure at some point they will and they will probably get a great review . Sounds like a solid product . I love internet companies because I think you get way more bang for your bucks.
post #179 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Andrew Robinson uses 14 dollar monoprice cables so I don't think he is one of those snooty reviewers. Tekton is no bigger then jtr . You call the number and you talk to the owner. If they wanted a review they could get one or take their product to a tradeshow. I am sure at some point they will and they will probably get a great review . Sounds like a solid product . I love internet companies because I think you get way more bang for your bucks.
Again, I have nothing against Andrew Robinson. He has Crown Pro Amplifiers. biggrin.gif clearly he is an exception.

I am making a generalization about the inherent conflicts in the review industry.
post #180 of 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

I am sure Andrew Robinson is aware of JTR speakers. Has Mark sent in a pair for him to review ? What about sending a pair to other prominent reviewers ? I started looking at tekton after Andrew's review. After more research I ended up buying them and am very happy. I bought HSU sub based on expert reviews as well. For the ID speaker companies i would never buy their product just on AVS forum boards. I look at dozens of reviews from expert reviewers and see which person tastes in products are similar to mine. THen i also look at forum posts. It would be nice to get someone from audioholics, or home theater to do a review.

I take most "professional" reviews with a grain of salt, no one every really knows if someone is getting their pockets greased or not and I'd rather hear back directly from the people actually buying the speakers. I also know that anyone who buys a certain brand will usually have a little bias in regards to what they say about their speakers but you can get a pretty good feel how if one person thinks a certain brand is amazing and no one else does. One or two guys drinking that coolaid is one thing, but when end user after end user has nothing but great things to say about a specific brand they're usually onto something.
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