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post #151 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

But it's an opinion backed up by some pretty solid science. You ought to try to learn that science.
And you should try the anti cable...its backed up by its users...smile.gif
post #152 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Yes there are many forms of distortion...and no my contacts and binding posts were not dirty...good recommendation though.
Dirty-is something that is not always easily seen.

Poor connections can look very clean to the common eye and the simple action of "wiping" (by removing a cable and inserting a new one) may be all that is need to "clean" them.

It is very common knowledge that you can improve a connection simply by removing and inserting a jack or wire several times.

i am not discounting that this is all that happened and THAT is very believable-as I have done it very many times myself.
post #153 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Dirty-is something that is not always easily seen.

Poor connections can look very clean to the common eye and the simple action of "wiping" (by removing a cable and inserting a new one) may be all that is need to "clean" them.

It is very common knowledge that you can improve a connection simply by removing and inserting a jack or wire several times.

i am not discounting that this is all that happened and THAT is very believable-as I have done it very many times myself.
I too have read that...but again no my connections were not dirty.
post #154 of 331
Quote:
And you should try the anti cable...its backed up by its users...
Who are clueless, as we can plainly see.
post #155 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Who are clueless, as we can plainly see.
I like your signature...smile.gif
post #156 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

I have. It is obvious you haven't, or you are intentionally ignoring the facts. But in case the former is the case., and for the benefit of others...

A perfect wire would have no resistance, capacitance or inductance. A practical wire has all three. We just want to keep the values low enough that they have no audible effect.

Resistance doesn't have an audible effect, expect for volume, as long as the resistance of the speaker cables doesn't exceed say 5% of the lowest impedance of the speaker. So assuming that you have an adequate size wire to start with, ETP or OFC won't make a difference. The difference in resistance between ETP and OFC is less than 1%.

Inductance is primariiy a function of the length of the wire. Wire gauge and cable construction can make some difference. But unless you have a very, very long cable, the inductance of a cable won't have an audible effect.

Capacitance is a function of cable geometry and the type of insulation. It isn't generally a problem, except in some boutique cables.

So lets look at some numbers:

Level 3 Belden
anticable 5000UE
R(ohms/foot) 0.0016 0.0016
L(mH/foot) 0.0003 0.00015
C(nF/foot) 0.048 0.024

Gee, two 12 AWG wires have the same resistance per foot to four significant digits even though one is ETP and one one is OFC. And the Belden 5000UE has half the capacitance and inductance per foot of the anticable. The Belden 5000UE measures superior to the anticable. But the relevant fact is that both measure low enough that you won't hear a difference between them because of RLC.

So, it is obvious RLC is not an argument one can use to explain the audible superiority of anticables.
More likely a large discrepancy will be found in dielectric absorption, as the Belden cable uses PVC, which is one of the worst insulators in this regard, while the anticable folks seem to have put a little more thought into that matter, for one. The use of solid core wire vs stranded will also make a difference. Of course the only way to really tell is to compare the two in a real world situation rather than looking at stats.
post #157 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

More likely a large discrepancy will be found in dielectric absorption, as the Belden cable uses PVC, which is one of the worst insulators in this regard, while the anticable folks seem to have put a little more thought into that matter, for one. The use of solid core wire vs stranded will also make a difference. Of course the only way to really tell is to compare the two in a real world situation rather than looking at stats.
I agree...thanks for the input.
post #158 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

...its a fact I can hear differences but most disagree.

Not even close. You have a claim with no credible evidence to support it. So, just another anecdote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

What do you know?...that there will be no difference between your thin 24 AWG cable to 12 AWG anti cable?...that's laughable seeing as a few post up you admit there are differences
Unfortunate that you cannot read and understand what is written. Why is that????
Since I don't have 24 ga cable, but something equivalent you youir pride, it would be a waste of time, no differences.
post #159 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Not even close. You have a claim with no credible evidence to support it. So, just another anecdote.
Unfortunate that you cannot read and understand what is written. Why is that????
Since I don't have 24 ga cable, but something equivalent you youir pride, it would be a waste of time, no differences.
Your opinion...continue to use what you have if your satisfied...you seem content on the wire you use so it wont benifit you to try something else...if you don't believe in the conversation then don't weigh in on it...simple
Edited by josh6113 - 2/24/13 at 10:13pm
post #160 of 331
May not be relevant but what is the point of spending so much on speaker wire when the speaker wire inside the actual enclosure might just be sound cheapo wire?
I don't see how wires than could help with that?
post #161 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

May not be relevant but what is the point of spending so much on speaker wire when the speaker wire inside the actual enclosure might just be sound cheapo wire?
I don't see how wires than could help with that?
One thing I've noticed with others that believe in certain wire is they own very revealing speakers.Speaker cable can and often are system dependant. If you own fairly high end speakers the difference in wire might be more noticeable where as a lesser speaker one might have a tougher time or not hear anything at all...this is my opinion of course...but its tough to explain unless you have heard it yourself.
post #162 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

More likely a large discrepancy will be found in dielectric absorption, as the Belden cable uses PVC, which is one of the worst insulators in this regard, while the anticable folks seem to have put a little more thought into that matter, for one.
Maybe at the lower end of the poly dielectrics, but far from bad. Brenneman's cap tests show measurements nowhere near audibility. He tested actual caps, not cables, and I've not seen a PVC dielectric cap.

Still, for supposedly looking into different dielectrics, purportedly better than PVC, they still manage twice the capacitance of a decent commercial product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

The use of solid core wire vs stranded will also make a difference.
Given a reasonable length in domestic use, and the same total CSA in copper, how will it make a difference? Feel free to exclude some pathologically bad like a 10ga single core where it's conceivable that there could be a slight loss of HF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

Of course the only way to really tell is to compare the two in a real world situation rather than looking at stats.
Yes, double blind. Or you could understand how electronics work.
post #163 of 331
Thread Starter 
A9X-308...since your talking double blind tests...explain to me what is your ideal test?
1)if there are any sonic differences between cable A and B
or
2)if people can identify which cable is which between A and B

Pick one of the 2 and list the steps in which you would concider a valid test...I'm interested in what you will say.
post #164 of 331
Well Josh, sine you've already determined to your satisfaction that Monoprice 12 gauge causes distorted bass, you should be able to reliably identify it and your anticables under appropriate conditions. For something like a 95% confidence level, just get it right 18 out of 20 attempts. Use the approach that you feel most comfortable with. Go back and forth as many times and for whatever length of time needed before you make a decision.
post #165 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

More likely a large discrepancy will be found in dielectric absorption, as the Belden cable uses PVC, which is one of the worst insulators in this regard, while the anticable folks seem to have put a little more thought into that matter, for one. The use of solid core wire vs stranded will also make a difference. Of course the only way to really tell is to compare the two in a real world situation rather than looking at stats.
I agree...thanks for the input.

Dielectric absorption is generally not an issue in common analog circuitry for audio no matter what you may have read.

Here is a common-sense discussion of the issue from a true and genuine world-class expert:

http://electronicdesign.com/analog/whats-all-soakage-stuff-anyhow

"So, I replied to my concerned friend, that the "expert" who thinks that speaker cables will sound "different" or "better" if they are made with low-DA materials, will probably have a very thin chance of telling any difference."

PVC is not spectacularly bad for DA. If you want bad DA numbers, well read the article. ;-)
post #166 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

May not be relevant but what is the point of spending so much on speaker wire when the speaker wire inside the actual enclosure might just be sound cheapo wire?
I don't see how wires than could help with that?

The interconnecting wire lengths inside the cabinet are usually less than a foot as compared to the 10 or more feet that are common in the listening room.

Of course there may be 100 feet or more of very common copper wire with insulation that was most definitely not chosen by audiophiles for low DA in the speaker driver voice coil(s) and probably also in the crossover.

Most of the capacitors in speaker crossovers are electrolytics, especially for the lower frequencies.
post #167 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Agreed.
I don't agree with the "any". Many changes in sound quality come from the poor quality of the tests that naive audiophiles perform. Most such tests are performed by means of manually swapping cables. It takes 10 or more seconds to swap a set of cables under the most ideal conditions. In that time period two things have happened:

(1) The music being listened to progresses through the natural changes that happen all the time in music, and it becomes a somewhat different piece of music. The last thing listened to was a verse and now we are listening to a chorus. The intensity of the music builds and enough time has passed for it to build up significantly. It's a different verse. The pace may have changed.

(2) As others have pointed out, our brains only maintain a detailed image of sound for a few seconds at the very most. So now our sonic comparison of cable A to cable B becomes a comparison between faded memory and a fresh memory. This might be the "change in sound quality (that) comes from the listener's mind" mentioned above, but to me it is more of a change in sensation than a change in perception.
Agreed. Another meaning of the phrase "change in sound quality (that) comes from the listener's mind" may have taken place. Things like self-affirmation. The excitement of believing that a significant change has been made.
I think you may be referring to the confusion that some people have over the word test A test involves a comparison to a reliable and fixed reference. This implies a back-and-forth comparison between two items or experiences. Most audiophiles seem to do one-way evaluations. They have their old system, they change something, and then they give a review of what they think has changed based on their memory (which I have already shown to be inherently defective) of their old system. There is no reliable fixed reference that they are comparing the new system to.
Agreed.
I agree that speakers are among the last areas where you can spend more money wisely, and get better sound. It still costs money to build a powerful subwoofer, for example.
Sure we can pick apart that conclusion from one source...doesn't mean anything...and topics like this start simple enough but ALWAYS go the way of long drawnout science claims and speculation....instead let's get to the basics of this thread...try the anti cable in your own system and compare it to what your using now...use any material you wish and post your findings here...I am talking about one cable...the anti cable...not cables in general...and not blind or double blind tests...all we have been doing is going back and forth not proving anything and we can debate this till were blue in the face.

The above response appears to be a complete and total avoidance of the critcial issues that I posed.

For the record I've personally done good speaker cable DBTs and no surprise, my mates and I were reduced to random guessing.
Quote:
I bet no one will...the point is how the anti cable does in your system compared to what your using now.That is the challenge.

You seem to have zero appreciation for the fact that some of us have tested a boatload of magic this and magic that including speaker wires, interconnects, amps, and DACs. The results of those tests is that there is no magic. At this point I don't think I could get anybody I know, even the crazier and more speculative of them to sit through a speaker cable test because of all the past frustration.

Please explain to me what's different about your hobby horse cables as compared to the 40 or more years of magic cables that have come before them.
post #168 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The above response appears to be a complete and total avoidance of the critcial issues that I posed.

For the record I've personally done good speaker cable DBTs and no surprise, my mates and I were reduced to random guessing.
Yointrigued to have zero appreciation for the fact that some of us have tested a boatload of magic this and magic that including speaker wires, interconnects, amps, and DACs. The results of those tests is that there is no magic. At this point I don't think I could get anybody I know, even the crazier and more speculative of them to sit through a speaker cable test because of all the past frustration.

Please explain to me what's different about your hobby horse cables as compared to the 40 or more years of magic cables that have come before them.
That is one point I've made...that over the years the cable guru's have tainted the hobby with very expensive exotic cables.In a lot of testing with the very exspensive cables differences have been noted by users but not to justify there multi hundred or multi thousand dollar price tag.The one thing that intruged me about the anticable was it touted close to the same performance of the exspensive cable but without the crazy cost...user views add more credit the this.So I tried them myself and in my comparisons I found I liked what the anticable did for my system that I didnt care for with the other cable ive used.If you are happy with your cable now and dont feel your missing a thing dont move up the chain...continue with what you have and rock on...smile.gif.If at all your curious about the anticable or havent used solid core before it might be a fun exsperiment to try and come to your own conclusions.like ive mentioned before I used to be a cable skeptic...but that has changed from my tests...if I didnt like the anticable or thought I didnt hear a difference I would of promply sent them back...but my exsperiment paid off for me so they are staying.
post #169 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The above response appears to be a complete and total avoidance of the critcial issues that I posed.

For the record I've personally done good speaker cable DBTs and no surprise, my mates and I were reduced to random guessing.
Yointrigued to have zero appreciation for the fact that some of us have tested a boatload of magic this and magic that including speaker wires, interconnects, amps, and DACs. The results of those tests is that there is no magic. At this point I don't think I could get anybody I know, even the crazier and more speculative of them to sit through a speaker cable test because of all the past frustration.

Please explain to me what's different about your hobby horse cables as compared to the 40 or more years of magic cables that have come before them.
That is one point I've made...that over the years the cable guru's have tainted the hobby with very expensive exotic cables.In a lot of testing with the very exspensive cables differences have been noted by users but not to justify there multi hundred or multi thousand dollar price tag.The one thing that intruged me about the anticable was it touted close to the same performance of the exspensive cable but without the crazy cost...user views add more credit the this.So I tried them myself and in my comparisons I found I liked what the anticable did for my system that I didnt care for with the other cable ive used.If you are happy with your cable now and dont feel your missing a thing dont move up the chain...continue with what you have and rock on...smile.gif.If at all your curious about the anticable or havent used solid core before it might be a fun exsperiment to try and come to your own conclusions.like ive mentioned before I used to be a cable skeptic...but that has changed from my tests...if I didnt like the anticable or thought I didnt hear a difference I would of promply sent them back...but my exsperiment paid off for me so they are staying.

They want something like $13 a foot for what appear to be pretty ordinary speaker cables, not even tightly twisted for minimum inductance.

If someone wants a speaker cable that measures to have critical parameters that are strongly superior to ordinary wire, they should try this at about a buck a foot:

http://www.rfparts.com/old_site/coax.html#2l2590

Belden RG213/U commerical spec YR41156

You should fall in love with its foamed polyethylene low DA insulation. ;-)
post #170 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

They want something like $13 a foot for what appear to be pretty ordinary speaker cables, not even tightly twisted for minimum inductance.

If someone wants a speaker cable that measures to have critical parameters that are strongly superior to ordinary wire, they should try this at about a buck a foot:

http://www.rfparts.com/old_site/coax.html#2l2590

Belden RG213/U commerical spec YR41156

You should fall in love with its foamed polyethylene low DA insulation. ;-)
Anticable is 6 bucks a foot...looks like I saved money...smile.gif
post #171 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

They want something like $13 a foot for what appear to be pretty ordinary speaker cables, not even tightly twisted for minimum inductance.

If someone wants a speaker cable that measures to have critical parameters that are strongly superior to ordinary wire, they should try this at about a buck a foot:

http://www.rfparts.com/old_site/coax.html#2l2590

Belden RG213/U commerical spec YR41156

You should fall in love with its foamed polyethylene low DA insulation. ;-)
Anticable is 6 bucks a foot...looks like I saved money...smile.gif

Saved money over what? How does $6 a foot beat just over $1 a foot for a technically superior cable?

BTW if you don't try my recommended cables, it makes everything you said about people who don't try new stuff into something besides heartfelt truth. ;-)
post #172 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Saved money over what? How does $6 a foot beat just over $1 a foot for a technically superior cable?

BTW if you don't try my recommended cables, it makes everything you said about people who don't try new stuff into something besides heartfelt truth. ;-)
smile.gif...look your dragging this out way to much....am I forcing you to buy the anti cables?..no...am I recommending them?...yes...are you happy with what your using?...if yes then continue...if you like to experiment then try the anti cable.You are beating this topic to death...the only thing left is to try them if you wish...or don't...up to the individual. If it bothers you that I've found a cable that works for me then so be it...it shouldn't....relax and don't partake in the topic if you don't believe or more importantly you haven't used the anti cable so all you have to go on with it is what you have read...not your personal use of it....and regarding you post of the 13 dollar a foot cable...anti cable is cheaper than that...and you can recommend the Belden...but have you personally used it?..smile.gif
Edited by josh6113 - 2/25/13 at 8:10am
post #173 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

You missed my point in saying the test can still be hidden without being blindfolded...can be done behind a curtain or wall where as the people won't SEE what is being done WITHOUT being blinded.

I assume you are serious with this comment. Blind or double blind testing does not mean that either the testers or the testees cannot see anything. IMagine testing an intraven=eous cancer drub while the Dr and nurses are blindfolded. Ludicrous. What you described is a blind test. "blind standing in for e concept that "you cannot tell what it is you are listening to." So if you put on a blindfold and the tester hollers out "this is the Arcam" or th"This is the Parasound", even if you have on a blindfold, it's not a 'blind" test in the technical sense. Might be helpful to google double blind testing just to get a feel for what it's all about. Because your comment is frankly just hilarious.
post #174 of 331
All this talk of speaker wire making a difference is meaningless unless you first get the right power cord. That's where the big differences can be heard.

PS: I also move within a mile of my nuclear reactor to minimize the effects of miles of electric lines that can distort the sound. Not only did this make a HUGE difference in my sound quality, the added radioactive electrons have completely evened out the high frequencies in ways I didn't think possible.
post #175 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

All this talk of speaker wire making a difference is meaningless unless you first get the right power cord. That's where the big differences can be heard.

PS: I also move within a mile of my nuclear reactor to minimize the effects of miles of electric lines that can distort the sound. Not only did this make a HUGE difference in my sound quality, the added radioactive electrons have completely evened out the high frequencies in ways I didn't think possible.

Following that logic, the best SQ should be obtained by hooking your equipment directly up to a gasoline-powered AC generator using a high end power cable, thus eliminating the losses inherent in regenreation of AC power. ;-)
post #176 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

All this talk of speaker wire making a difference is meaningless unless you first get the right power cord. That's where the big differences can be heard.

PS: I also move within a mile of my nuclear reactor to minimize the effects of miles of electric lines that can distort the sound. Not only did this make a HUGE difference in my sound quality, the added radioactive electrons have completely evened out the high frequencies in ways I didn't think possible.
Nothing constructive to add I see
post #177 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Following that logic, the best SQ should be obtained by hooking your equipment directly up to a gasoline-powered AC generator using a high end power cable, thus eliminating the losses inherent in regenreation of AC power. ;-)

Yes, but, you have to be careful with this. Unless you can obtain 93 octane or better, it will muddy the mid-range.
post #178 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsdms View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Following that logic, the best SQ should be obtained by hooking your equipment directly up to a gasoline-powered AC generator using a high end power cable, thus eliminating the losses inherent in regenreation of AC power. ;-)

Yes, but, you have to be careful with this. Unless you can obtain 93 octane or better, it will muddy the mid-range.

Allays use Avgas or racing fuel. If you avoid properly routing the exhaust from the generator, you may experience a dark kind of listener break-in.
post #179 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Nothing constructive to add I see

Please see post 172 for an example of that.
post #180 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Allays use Avgas or racing fuel. If you avoid properly routing the exhaust from the generator, you may experience a dark kind of listener break-in.
You misspelled always...smile.gif...and you are going way off topic...stop trolling the thread and posting about information that isn't realavent... Your fueling the fire...please show some maturity and let it go.
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