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Lets talk AntiCables...;) - Page 9

post #241 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post


Lack of lots of engineering stuff doesn't mean he's not an EE. It probably means he doesn't want to put his viewers to sleep. I see no reason for him to spout EEspeak and just confuse guys like me.
jn

Oh but he does post lots of engineering stuff on his site. It's haphazard way it's put together (cut and pasted) as well as the lack of relevance to audio signals that gives him away as a fraud.
post #242 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

John, what do you think about taking that coated wire and subjecting it to some LN2 cryo treatment?

As long as he keeps a large radius of curvature, the insulation should be ok. LN2 isn't that cold, so I suspect even formvar may survive. Polyimide certainly would be great even through liquid helium, I do that a lot. In fact, polyimid is the only plastic known which remains a little flexible at 4.5K.

If I were to do it however, I'd first inspect the surface for crazing. Copper's TCE is 16ppm/C and all the coatings are in the 60 to 90 range, so a thick enough film may not survive. I've never dunked magnet style wire after twisting however, nor twisted after dunk, so can't say if it's a reasonable thing to do. When I say "dunk", I really mean a slow and gentle cooling process.. If you drop it into LN2, after the initial vaporization which occurs without contact, the liquid will touch the surface of the insulation and that is when the lack of thermal conductivity of the plastic will cause cracking of the outer surface. Between LN2 and LH2 temperatures, the heat capacity of the wire dissapears so this is not a big problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

From what I have read you cannot cryo coated copper like that or it will chip...the cro process needs to be done before hand.
It can be done, but you have to really make sure you do not create excessive tensile stress on the outer side of a bend. Hence my statement of keeping the loop very large.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Oh but he does post lots of engineering stuff on his site. It's haphazard way it's put together (cut and pasted) as well as the lack of relevance to audio signals that gives him away as a fraud.
Too harsh and too wide a brushstroke for my taste. Web design and public speaking were not taught during my undergraduate studies, so I personally couldn't lambast anyone for presentation. I'll stick to engineering facts and point out errors.

jn
post #243 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

smile.gif...look your dragging this out way to much....

My favorite quote of the thread smile.gif
post #244 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

My favorite quote of the thread smile.gif
Mine too...smile.gif
post #245 of 331
Who's getting lots of snow tonight? We have 3" new and expect 5" or more. From Howell mich.
post #246 of 331
Thread Starter 
This test was done with Audiodiffmaker...I tested the Anti cable and cerro solid core cable...both are 12 AWG.I will post the wav files and also a DIF file you can load into Audiodiffmaker.I tested with the Dark knight rises bluray.

First is the reference track:
http://www.2shared.com/fadmin/49070777/e231adec/dark_knight_wire_1.wav.html

Now I changed wire and made another recording:
http://www.2shared.com/fadmin/49070813/b85a894e/dark_knight_wire_2.wav.html

This is the difference track comparing the 2:
http://www.2shared.com/fadmin/49070857/db5b8853/dark_knight_wire_2-dark_knight.wav.html


Now here is the DIF file to load into Audiodiffmaker so you can see it in the program:
http://www.2shared.com/fadmin/49070896/e9f7c9/NewDiffPkg_of_dark_knight_with.dyf.html

Here is a link to the program:

http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm

Have at it
Edited by josh6113 - 3/16/13 at 5:33pm
post #247 of 331
Thread Starter 
I also want to point out that if there isn't a difference the difference track comparing the 2 would be silent.This is a quote from the diff maker site:


Changes detected by Audio DiffMaker are not necessarily audible changes for any given person.* Some changes will not sound different, and some are too weak to be heard when accompanied by the unchanged part of the program material.* But a silent difference track can only result if the two tracks being compared are unchanged (the same).
post #248 of 331
Thread Starter 
Another way to look at the test I did is listen to track 1 that used the Anti cable...then listen to track 2 that used cerro wire and try to note the difference.My bet is you can't as doing it this way is how DBT's are setup and why me and others say they are flawed from the beginning.Now from using this program and having it detect any difference from the change and in this case a simple swap of wires you are left with the difference track that let's you hear the changes made from the swap.Instead of going back and forth trying to pick out the change.What I've done is kept it simple and the program analyzed the change.As it states on the Audiodiffmaker site if there wasn't a change the difference file would be silent but that isn't the case...
post #249 of 331
Links in 246 don't work.
post #250 of 331
Thread Starter 
I'll fix that...thanks...fixed..smile.gif
Edited by josh6113 - 3/16/13 at 5:33pm
post #251 of 331
The software can detect a difference between the files, but your ears can't. Why does any of this suggest a flaw with DBT's?
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Another way to look at the test I did is listen to track 1 that used the Anti cable...then listen to track 2 that used cerro wire and try to note the difference.My bet is you can't as doing it this way is how DBT's are setup and why me and others say they are flawed from the beginning.Now from using this program and having it detect any difference from the change and in this case a simple swap of wires you are left with the difference track that let's you hear the changes made from the swap.Instead of going back and forth trying to pick out the change.What I've done is kept it simple and the program analyzed the change.As it states on the Audiodiffmaker site if there wasn't a change the difference file would be silent but that isn't the case...
post #252 of 331
Besides, who knows how this test was actually performed. I suspect he'd get a difference from the initial file if he switched back to the first cable. But, based on josh6113's posts at the blu-ray.com forum, this test was set up, run, uploaded, and posted in an hour or two, hardly time to do any kind of controlled testing. I think you'll find that this poster ignores factors such as expectation bias and brings no scientific rigor to the project.
post #253 of 331
Because it won't let you hear what is obviously there!

Some will probably never understand what a controlled test is or means.
post #254 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Another way to look at the test I did is listen to track 1 that used the Anti cable...then listen to track 2 that used cerro wire and try to note the difference.My bet is you can't as doing it this way is how DBT's are setup and why me and others say they are flawed from the beginning.Now from using this program and having it detect any difference from the change and in this case a simple swap of wires you are left with the difference track that let's you hear the changes made from the swap.Instead of going back and forth trying to pick out the change.What I've done is kept it simple and the program analyzed the change.As it states on the Audiodiffmaker site if there wasn't a change the difference file would be silent but that isn't the case...

I believe that you have just established a method for evaluating cables known as sighted evaluation that is well known to be highly flawed due to its generation of a host of false positives, as your gold standard for all other tests.

You have further criticized an alternative method that solves this major problem of sighted evaluations, on the grounds of speculation, not actual testing.

I shouldn't stop you - you are well on your way to discrediting your ideas in the eyes of any reasonable person.
post #255 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I believe that you have just established a method for evaluating cables known as sighted evaluation that is well known to be highly flawed due to its generation of a host of false positives, as your gold standard for all other tests.

You have further criticized an alternative method that solves this major problem of sighted evaluations, on the grounds of speculation, not actual testing.

I shouldn't stop you - you are well on your way to discrediting your ideas in the eyes of any reasonable person.

Audiodiffmaker was suggested on here so I used it and posted my test...questioning my methods is part of the fun.Nothing was moved during the test just a swap of wire.If my simple little test showed anything its that the sound did change from the wire swap.We can argue varibles...sure but this wasnt an absolute controlled test...just something that was done in my listening room.I found the ourcome interesting atleast.
post #256 of 331
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Besides, who knows how this test was actually performed. I suspect he'd get a difference from the initial file if he switched back to the first cable. But, based on josh6113's posts at the blu-ray.com forum, this test was set up, run, uploaded, and posted in an hour or two, hardly time to do any kind of controlled testing. I think you'll find that this poster ignores factors such as expectation bias and brings no scientific rigor to the project.
After I do an initial test I would have no problem retesting the first cable again...if interested let me know.
post #257 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

...if interested
I doubt any person properly informed on audio cables would be. It's not like there is something new to be expected after so much has already been done by experts and wannabes.
post #258 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Audiodiffmaker was suggested on here so I used it and posted my test...questioning my methods is part of the fun.Nothing was moved during the test just a swap of wire.If my simple little test showed anything its that the sound did change from the wire swap.We can argue varibles...sure but this wasnt an absolute controlled test...just something that was done in my listening room.I found the ourcome interesting atleast.
Well, I don't think it did show that but it did show that you perceived a change. Now, one needs to find out if that perception is reality or just a brain fooling the person into a false reality, an imagined one.
post #259 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

This test was done with Audiodiffmaker..
Have at it
Boy, that is one hideous file sharing site. At every chance it tries to dump some other programs onto your machine, going out of its way to confuse you on what the real download link is. I believe AVS allows such enclosures. Can you try using that or some other cleaner site? I am interested in listening to your tests but won't try use the sources you provided. smile.gif
post #260 of 331
......oh boy....here we go again.....sigh...
post #261 of 331
The thread had been dead for nearly a week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

......oh boy....here we go again.....sigh...
post #262 of 331
It will never die!!!
post #263 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Besides, who knows how this test was actually performed. I suspect he'd get a difference from the initial file if he switched back to the first cable. But, based on josh6113's posts at the blu-ray.com forum, this test was set up, run, uploaded, and posted in an hour or two, hardly time to do any kind of controlled testing. I think you'll find that this poster ignores factors such as expectation bias and brings no scientific rigor to the project.

CLEAR!!!

I'd say controlled test parameters to include ambient temperature, atmospheric pressure (for the drivers), amplifier case temp, etc. are a necessity. Where you stand in the room during the test will make a difference. Microphone placement, quality, mounting, airflow, etc. are paramount for an objective test. These tests must be made in an audio room that is free from room harmonics/feedback. I'd actually venture to say that laser imaging of the speaker drivers would give you the best results as opposed to a microphone.

Wouldn't you have to run the test multiple times with each cable. Alternating the cables between tests to ensure the transistors (or tubes) temps are not affecting the amplification of the signals. This is a very hard test to run and get the same results twice. Even in the most controlled environment. There are far too many variables to consider.

If you buy the cables, do you like them? Be happy. LOL

I do have a question that I have never really been able to nail down. When speaking on the topic of stranded versus copper wire (supposing they are both of adequate gauge for the signal run), do the twists in stranded wire act differently at higher freqs than low freqs? I know high freqs tend to travel along the "skin" or outside of the wire (hence waveguides for microwave freqs) but audio doesn't go that high.

With solid wire, aren't I going to get more or less inductive cancellation at certain freqs, thus changing the audio output? Twisted wires are going to oppose the rapid change in polarity more than solid would, right?
post #264 of 331
Hi Climber,

This is my understanding:

Solid and stranded cable are almost identical, electrically. The twists in the strands are not electrically relevant, because the electrons do not restrict themselves to any single strand. In fact, stranded copper wire would behave the same as a solid copper wire that had voids within, assuming that the voids are arranged such that they don't affect the gauge, as they are in stranded copper.

Typically, there is no difference in inductance between stranded and solid copper.
post #265 of 331
Appreciate the reply brother. I was thinking not of the electron flow with stranded, but with EMF and the opposing/aiding lines from strands in the twisted strands.

You know what, now that I think about it, I'm an idiot. Stranded wire would only have EMF cancellation if the individual strands were insulated from one another... Stranded simply has more surface area. I feel kinda dumb. rolleyes.gif
post #266 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber07 View Post

Appreciate the reply brother. I was thinking not of the electron flow with stranded, but with EMF and the opposing/aiding lines from strands in the twisted strands.

You know what, now that I think about it, I'm an idiot. Stranded wire would only have EMF cancellation if the individual strands were insulated from one another... Stranded simply has more surface area. I feel kinda dumb. rolleyes.gif

It turns out that insulating the strands all by itself has almost no effect at all because the voltage drop along identical strands identically tightly wound into the same bundle have the same voltage at all points along them. If they are tightly wound then their magnetic fields couple well, and they tend to act just like a large solid conductor.

If you study the technology of large diameter (high current) interconnects for high frequency signals (mostly radio transmitters, large switchmode power circuits, etc.) the strands are not only insulated but also significantly physically separated from each other.

http://www.osco.uk.com/products/cable/litz-wire

These pictures illustrate both modern and traditional ways to make this kind of cable:









It turns out extensive technical studies have shown that type 4 through 6 is the stuff that really works.

http://thayer.dartmouth.edu/inductor/papers/litzj.pdf
post #267 of 331
Hey, I found the solution. JPS labs has cables for only about $10,100 per 8 foot cable... They have power cords too. They're much more reasonable at $3,400 per 2m cable. eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
post #268 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber07 View Post

Hey, I found the solution. JPS labs has cables for only about $10,100 per 8 foot cable... They have power cords too. They're much more reasonable at $3,400 per 2m cable. eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

Its that last 1.5 feet that is so darned expensive, $6700/ Maybe they can cut it off and sell it for the same? wink.gifbiggrin.gif
post #269 of 331
You know what is ironic about all these cable arguments is that they say you can convince yourself subconsciously that there is a change, you can also just as easily convince yourself that there is no change by dismissing what you actually hear. If you can't hear the difference, stick with your monster cable...
post #270 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Well yes it is sound...my point is the anti cables don't add or take away anything from the signal....

You mean like every other cable?
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