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How to get the low bass notes

post #1 of 19
2/18/13 at 3:01pm
Thread Starter 
Hey guys I am running a pioneer elite vsx30 to a cleanboxpro and then to a crown xls1000 that will be powering 2 Dayton audio RSS460HO 18"s in a sealed enclosure. What other piece of equipment do I need to get the low bass frequencies????both the receiver and crown X-over go down to 50HZ.

Thanks
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post #2 of 19
2/18/13 at 3:41pm
Have you measured your room using a room analyzer?
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post #3 of 19
2/18/13 at 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Have you measured your room using a room analyzer?

That seems to be your standard answer for everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIESEL758 View Post

Hey guys I am running a pioneer elite vsx30 to a cleanboxpro and then to a crown xls1000 that will be powering 2 Dayton audio RSS460HO 18"s in a sealed enclosure. What other piece of equipment do I need to get the low bass frequencies????both the receiver and crown X-over go down to 50HZ.

Thanks

Well I hate to tell you, but you need to upgrade your amp first. The problem with the Daytons is they are single 4 ohm VC's, so you have 3 wiring options. You can choose from 1 or 8 ohm bridged, or 4 ohm stereo. Well the 1000 isn't capable of 1 ohm bridged (I know of no amps that are), and 8 ohm won't pull any power at all. So your only other option is wiring for 4 ohm per channel. Rated power per channel on that amp at 4ohms is 350watts.

Now compound that with your sealed setup, and you are going to have serious output issues. The only way to make sealed setups play loud and low is multiple drivers, and/or big power. What reasoning do you have behind going sealed? You would be much better off going ported. You will easily gain 3db's (probably more) from the ported setup around port tune. Now sealed will play lower as you don't have issues with drivers unloading after tune, and needing a HPF in place. Once again though, this is with proper power, etc.

If you are dead set on going sealed, I would highly recommend upgrading to an amp capable of at least 700wpc. You can cheat the power game a bit by building a larger cab, lowering the qtc and gaining output; but if you decide to go this route and add more power down the road, you run the risk of bottoming drivers due to the enlarged airspace.

I'd recommend you download winisd and play around with different configs, so you familiarize yourself with what you can expect from each design. JMTC.

Oh and P.S. That xover on your receiver is an LPF, not HPF. wink.gif
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post #4 of 19
2/19/13 at 5:46am
Thread Starter 
Sorry I guess I should of stated I will be adding another crown xls1000 to power the other sub. The box is built already they are 4.2ft^3 each box. Should I throw in a DSP to handle the duty for low frequency??

My original setup was two 12s with the crown xls1000 and then decided to upgrade to two 18s. Iam guessing that two of these amps bridged would be just fine at 1100 watts @ 4 ohms each.
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post #5 of 19
2/19/13 at 5:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

That seems to be your standard answer for everything.

And well it should be, cause if one is not measuring their room, then the reader has nothing empirical to base a reply on. Without room readings, one is guessing.

If poorly placed and poorly dialed in, at the main listening position, one can and will get anemic bass. But I guess one can do a sub crawl, with an uncalibrated sound meter and hope multiple subs, Audyssey and well placed suggestions will pick up the slack of not having benefit of a room analyzing program.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/19/13 at 6:13am
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post #6 of 19
2/19/13 at 8:36am
Sigh. Room correction programs are absolutely worthless if you aren't starting with the right recipe.

I can analyze the piss out of the performance of a Volkswagon Beetle, but if I bought it to race in Nascar; no amount of tweaking is going to make it competitive. Analyzing problems doesn't fix them, it just let's you know you have them. So go ahead and tell him to forge forward, and your magical room analyzer will make all well.

Thanks for Beeman'ing another thread. rolleyes.gif
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post #7 of 19
2/19/13 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Sigh. Room correction programs are absolutely worthless if you aren't starting with the right recipe.

I can analyze the piss out of the performance of a Volkswagon Beetle, but if I bought it to race in Nascar; no amount of tweaking is going to make it competitive.

Well, the next time I want to run a Volkswagon Beetle in our living room for bass reproduction, I'll keep you in mind. In the meantime, I stand by my comment cause if one doesn't know what the problems are, even if one has an uncalibrated sound meter in hand, they won't be able to fix the problems and the best they're doing, is guessing.

No measuring program, no soup.

If one doesn't want to recommend measuring programs, don't and I won't fault them. And if I want to recommend measuring programs, I will and quid pro quo, if I recommend measuring programs, I can depend on others telling others to ignore me. And if one doesn't care about getting the best out of their system and they don't mind throwing their low bass notes away, that's on them. I've done my participatory part recommending the best way to get the best out of their system; using a measuring program for what it has to offer. And yes, then I expect the user of the measuring system to do, to the best of their ability, what they can to take advantage of what the measuring program is showing them. Which in this case is.......Move those subs and change those parametric settings.

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Edited

-.
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/19/13 at 10:15am
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post #8 of 19
2/19/13 at 8:59am
OP, if you would like some real help; feel free to PM me or someone else and we'll steer you in the right direction.
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post #9 of 19
2/19/13 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

This helpful message will repeat itself in five minutes. tongue.gif

I hope it does not because it is really not helpful: why don't you let the other members continue on here please

posts will be deleted or edited: thanks
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post #10 of 19
2/19/13 at 10:04am
I'm also going with dual sealed Dayton 18's, and I would be interested in reading how everything turns out.

I'm leaning towards using the a inuke3000 for power, but I'm still trying to decide on whether to buy the DSP model, or buy a separate minidsp. I currently have a couple powered 12" subs, and it's likely that I'll be keeping at least one of them in the mix.
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post #11 of 19
2/19/13 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I hope it does not because it is really not helpful: why don't you let the other members continue on here please

posts will be deleted or edited: thanks

Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanglo View Post

I'm also going with dual sealed Dayton 18's, and I would be interested in reading how everything turns out.

I'm leaning towards using the a inuke3000 for power, but I'm still trying to decide on whether to buy the DSP model, or buy a separate minidsp. I currently have a couple powered 12" subs, and it's likely that I'll be keeping at least one of them in the mix.

First off, might I recommend posting in the DIY speaker forum. There are a lot of knowledgeable guys over there who can offer a lot of help. I as well as them would love to respond to your question there. smile.gif
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post #12 of 19
2/19/13 at 10:36am
Thread Starter 
The room analyzer I have is the one on the pioneer elite (MCACC). I dont know if that really helps. I have a funky game room with the stairway door opening to my back right of listening position also to the front right is the hallway and 3 bedrooms and bathroom. I have played around with sub placement for about 3 months, I have found that if I stack my two 12s and corner load them to my left front listening position that is where I get the best sound not only for me but other listeners as well. I have chosen to build one single cab the will enclose two 18s but separated so they have there own 4.2ft^3 of space each. They will be standing upright at 44" tall.

Also would one recommend stuffing the enclosure or leave it, if stuffing should be put in how much??

Please keep in mind iam new to the DIY stuff and also using pro amps. If I need to buy another crown xls1000 to power the other sub then I will but at a later date so what I have I will have to make work for a little while. Maybe bridging and running 4ohm till I can get another amp.

Thanks for all the help it is greatly appreciated!!!!!!!
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post #13 of 19
2/19/13 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIESEL758 View Post

Hey guys I am running a pioneer elite vsx30 to a cleanboxpro and then to a crown xls1000 that will be powering 2 Dayton audio RSS460HO 18"s in a sealed enclosure. What other piece of equipment do I need to get the low bass frequencies????both the receiver and crown X-over go down to 50HZ.

Thanks

This might help
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/subwoofer-placement-the-place-for-bass-part-1
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf
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post #14 of 19
2/19/13 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIESEL758 View Post

The room analyzer I have is the one on the pioneer elite (MCACC).

The analyzer in your AVR is an auto EQ program type of application where as a separate room analyzer let's you see what the room analyzer sees so you can make changes to allow for what the analyzer shows you.

Being realtime in nature, one can set up, run the program to get a base line, move their sub to what they think is a more desirable location and get immediate feedback as to how the move impacted the subwoofer's integration into the room's acoustics. One can also change a parametric setting and get immediate feedback as to how this parametric change impacted the acoustics at the main listening position. This cannot be accurately done by hand with a sound meter and one's hearing.
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post #15 of 19
2/19/13 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIESEL758 View Post

I have chosen to build one single cab the will enclose two 18s but separated so they have there own 4.2ft^3 of space each. They will be standing upright at 44" tall.

I'll start by addressing the build, as this is where it will all start.

If possible, can you build 2 separate cabs? This will help immensely with room nodes, and evening out the FR.

You don't need to separate the subs out in a single enclosure. Just build the enclosure to 8.4 cf.
Quote:
Also would one recommend stuffing the enclosure or leave it, if stuffing should be put in how much??

Yes, this serves 2 purposes. It will help with the acoustic resonance as well as "tricking" the subs into behaving as if they are in a larger enclosure.
Quote:
Please keep in mind iam new to the DIY stuff and also using pro amps. If I need to buy another crown xls1000 to power the other sub then I will but at a later date so what I have I will have to make work for a little while. Maybe bridging and running 4ohm till I can get another amp.

Pro amps work great. As mentioned earlier, the drivers can only be wired so many ways. 4 ohm SVC's can be wired for either a 1, 2, 4, or 8 ohm load. If using just one amp, the only way to wire it would be each driver on it's own channel. You will definitely want more power than that amp is capable of if running sealed so you will definitely want to add another. I'm not sure what power it actually puts out, but it it's anywhere close to the rated specs of 1100 watts, that will mate up nicely. I would model this driver with that power and make sure that cab size won't have an over excursion issue in the lower frequencies. 4.2 will be pretty close to optimal sizing though.

I'm at work so I apologize if I've skipped around.
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post #16 of 19
2/19/13 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Thank you.
First off, might I recommend posting in the DIY speaker forum. There are a lot of knowledgeable guys over there who can offer a lot of help. I as well as them would love to respond to your question there. smile.gif

Thanks, I cruised over there and the last few pages of Gorilla83's multiple sealed 18's thread answered half of my questions.
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post #17 of 19
2/19/13 at 12:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I'll start by addressing the build, as this is where it will all start.

If possible, can you build 2 separate cabs? This will help immensely with room nodes, and evening out the FR. I have tried two separate subs and I have found that they are better on top of one another. I don't have a lot of space anyways right know so that is why I decided to build one tall enclosure because I already know what it sounds like. If not I will scrap it and build two separates.

No I can't as iam putting the finishing touches on the box already (primer,paint).

You don't need to separate the subs out in a single enclosure. Just build the enclosure to 8.4 cf.
I did not know you can leave them open, I thought it would be better to have its own space. O well live and learn. This is just a temp box to get me by till the end of the year when I will have my own dedicated room.

Yes, this serves 2 purposes. It will help with the acoustic resonance as well as "tricking" the subs into behaving as if they are in a larger enclosure.
Pro amps work great. As mentioned earlier, the drivers can only be wired so many ways. 4 ohm SVC's can be wired for either a 1, 2, 4, or 8 ohm load. If using just one amp, the only way to wire it would be each driver on it's own channel. You will definitely want more power than that amp is capable of if running sealed so you will definitely want to add another. I'm not sure what power it actually puts out, but it it's anywhere close to the rated specs of 1100 watts, that will mate up nicely. I would model this driver with that power and make sure that cab size won't have an over excursion issue in the lower frequencies. 4.2 will be pretty close to optimal sizing though.

I'm at work so I apologize if I've skipped around.
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post #18 of 19
2/19/13 at 12:44pm
No worries. We all have to work within our own limitations. HT is all about compromises. If you can add another amp, you will definitely be impressed with what the Daytons' are capable of.

With pro amps, you definitely need to make sure you setup a gain structure to both maximize and protect your system.

We all love build pics, so feel free to post up a few. smile.gif
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post #19 of 19
2/19/13 at 2:50pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the help!!! I will post pics as soon as I can. The subs will be in on Friday so hopefully I will have them up and running by Saturday. Looks like next week I will go ahead and order another amp to feed these beasts. Until then the one will have to work.
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