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Not sure what receiver is good enough.... possible separates? - Page 2

post #31 of 103
You're missing the most important point of the Amplifier FAQ;
Even if a receiver puts out 50wpc at best, it might be all you need for your speakers and listening distance to get to the SPL you want cleanly.
post #32 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

You're missing the most important point of the Amplifier FAQ;
Even if a receiver puts out 50wpc at best, it might be all you need for your speakers and listening distance to get to the SPL you want cleanly.
This most certainly true...but some people will crank it up to insane levels, and that is where clipping comes into the picture, with a low watt AVR. Or if a room is really dead, requires more power compared to a room that is on the live side.
post #33 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

You're missing the most important point of the Amplifier FAQ;
Even if a receiver puts out 50wpc at best, it might be all you need for your speakers and listening distance to get to the SPL you want cleanly.
This most certainly true...but some people will crank it up to insane levels, and that is where clipping comes into the picture, with a low watt AVR. Or if a room is really dead, requires more power compared to a room that is on the live side.

 

If it's clipping it isn't "all you need". The point is, if your current amps aren't clipping, then you don't need anything else and the AVR amps, even at 50 wpc, are enough. 

post #34 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Or if a room is really dead, requires more power compared to a room that is on the live side.

Only if you're trying to get it to where it clips, but even in a treated room 90db is still 90db. I won't seem as loud because you wouldn't have all the standing waves and excess reverberations.
post #35 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Or if a room is really dead, requires more power compared to a room that is on the live side.

Only if you're trying to get it to where it clips, but even in a treated room 90db is still 90db. I won't seem as loud because you wouldn't have all the standing waves and excess reverberations.

 

I think what he means is that a treated room requires more amp power for a given SLP (because you have removed energy from the room by absorption).

post #36 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think what he means is that a treated room requires more amp power for a given SLP (because you have removed energy from the room by absorption).

Sure, you can reduce room gain, but that's dependent on how much absorbtion and where. Still the most important parameters to determine power requirements are speaker efficiency and distance to the listening position. That requirement is often way less than people think.
post #37 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think what he means is that a treated room requires more amp power for a given SLP (because you have removed energy from the room by absorption).
Exactly the point. In a really live room, it does not take much power at all, before it gets too loud.
But in a dead room (and I've heard a few) it takes a lot more power to get to the same SPL.
Quote:
If it's clipping it isn't "all you need". The point is, if your current amps aren't clipping, then you don't need anything else and the AVR amps, even at 50 wpc, are enough.

That is not telling the whole thing. There can be a difference in amps, as to how they sound. I say can b/c some amps do sound the same. But move up to an amp that has much better circuitry, components with tighter tolerances, you get better sound.
The same thing with speaker XOs, there is it gets the job done XOs, and then there are Biased XOs with upgraded components.
That is a whole different level.
post #38 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Good speakers are definitely a great starting point.

But, take the best speakers in the world, slap them in the middle of an empty room and they'll sound like crap. Everything you do from there is addressing room acoustics, like positioning them, adding carpets, drapes etc., all of which will enhance their performance.

It's a pretty dramatic example, but it's valid, you can get a lot of milage out of decent speakers if you address how they interact with the room and listening position.

The best way to get a good end result is to look at the whole picture, not just the amp or the speakers or any miracle pill for that matter.

Yes, that is correct. I myself have a treated dedicated room to watch HT.
But remember, the OP wasn't asking how to treat his room. He was asking questions about gear.
Judging from the last 10+ posts, this thread is off course... shocker eh...
post #39 of 103
Thread Starter 
If I had an amp that was 200 watts for all 5 channels of constant power, like Emotiva claims, would that be too much for a speaker that is only rated at 100-150 watts?
I do like the Emotiva stuff but room correction would be nice too. I have read about some that will make proper adjustments for low volume levels too. Can't remember which one though, I gotta find it again. And it seems like if more power is desired, that is only available with more channels added, like from 5.1 to 7.1 or even 9.1. So something like the Marantz SR6007 states that it is a 7.2-channel AV receiver with 110-watt per channel fully discrete amplifiers. It will deliver 110 watts all the time to all channels? How can you tell?
I know great speakers are the key to a good sound system but I have heard a couple of friends and some of them added an amp or purchased a new A / V receiver and that changed the sound dramatically! I thought hey had purchased a whole new system. I couldn't believe it would make such a difference.
post #40 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonomaComa View Post

If I had an amp that was 200 watts for all 5 channels of constant power, like Emotiva claims, would that be too much for a speaker that is only rated at 100-150 watts?
I do like the Emotiva stuff but room correction would be nice too. I have read about some that will make proper adjustments for low volume levels too. Can't remember which one though, I gotta find it again. And it seems like if more power is desired, that is only available with more channels added, like from 5.1 to 7.1 or even 9.1. So something like the Marantz SR6007 states that it is a 7.2-channel AV receiver with 110-watt per channel fully discrete amplifiers. It will deliver 110 watts all the time to all channels? How can you tell?
I know great speakers are the key to a good sound system but I have heard a couple of friends and some of them added an amp or purchased a new A / V receiver and that changed the sound dramatically! I thought hey had purchased a whole new system. I couldn't believe it would make such a difference.

Generally, more speakers are damaged by too little power, than too much power.
There are many brands of 2, 3 channel amps with 200w or more.
imo, some of the best amps are Parasound Halo series. the better sound quality has to be heard.
post #41 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonomaComa View Post

If I had an amp that was 200 watts for all 5 channels of constant power, like Emotiva claims, would that be too much for a speaker that is only rated at 100-150 watts?
I do like the Emotiva stuff but room correction would be nice too. I have read about some that will make proper adjustments for low volume levels too. Can't remember which one though, I gotta find it again. And it seems like if more power is desired, that is only available with more channels added, like from 5.1 to 7.1 or even 9.1. So something like the Marantz SR6007 states that it is a 7.2-channel AV receiver with 110-watt per channel fully discrete amplifiers. It will deliver 110 watts all the time to all channels? How can you tell?
I know great speakers are the key to a good sound system but I have heard a couple of friends and some of them added an amp or purchased a new A / V receiver and that changed the sound dramatically! I thought hey had purchased a whole new system. I couldn't believe it would make such a difference.

you have some great questions and I'm not the best one to answer them... But the question about emotiva being to much power, the fast answer is no.

sufflok112000, " Judging from the last 10+ posts, this thread is off course... shocker eh..."

ZOOM ZOOM "does this happen at AVS?? lol"
some day I need to figure out the multi quote feature.confused.gif
post #42 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOOM ZOOM View Post

you have some great questions and I'm not the best one to answer them... But the question about emotiva being to much power, the fast answer is no.

sufflok112000, " Judging from the last 10+ posts, this thread is off course... shocker eh..."

ZOOM ZOOM "does this happen at AVS?? lol"
some day I need to figure out the multi quote feature.confused.gif

LMAO... smile.gif
post #43 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Generally, more speakers are damaged by too little power, than too much power.
There are many brands of 2, 3 channel amps with 200w or more.

+1...!
post #44 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think what he means is that a treated room requires more amp power for a given SLP (because you have removed energy from the room by absorption).

Sure, you can reduce room gain, but that's dependent on how much absorbtion and where. Still the most important parameters to determine power requirements are speaker efficiency and distance to the listening position. That requirement is often way less than people think.

Absolutely.

post #45 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

 
If it's clipping it isn't "all you need". The point is, if your current amps aren't clipping, then you don't need anything else and the AVR amps, even at 50 wpc, are enough.

That is not telling the whole thing. There can be a difference in amps, as to how they sound. I say can b/c some amps do sound the same. But move up to an amp that has much better circuitry, components with tighter tolerances, you get better sound.
 

 

I totally disagree with that, but I have argued it a million times and don't feel like doing it yet once more. There are dozens of threads on AVS about whether modern SS amps, working within spec and not clipping sound different to each other. I am in the camp that they do not sound different to each other in those circumstances.

 

EDIT: this thread is the most recent one where I have posted my own views on this topic. The thread is only 18 pages and is a 'fun' read....


Edited by kbarnes701 - 2/25/13 at 4:56am
post #46 of 103
+1
post #47 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I totally disagree with that, but I have argued it a million times and don't feel like doing it yet once more. There are dozens of threads on AVS about whether modern SS amps, working within spec and not clipping sound different to each other. I am in the camp that they do not sound different to each other in those circumstances.

EDIT: this thread is the most recent one where I have posted my own views on this topic. The thread is only 18 pages and is a 'fun' read....
When it comes to how amps sound, for me its a split decision. As I said above, many amps do sound the same, or close enough you could not pick them in a blind test.
But that in no way means all amps sound the same. There is a lot to be said about circuit design and the quality of components used.
I think we have all heard about the guy who says he will put up $10k to anyone who can pick a given amp in 3 amp blind tests. If the challenger constantly picks the same amp, he gets the $10k. But, the test is rigged in the favor of the guy putting up the $10. For you just know he did his homework before hand and made sure he picked 3 amps that do sound the same.

Now, if the challenger wants to pick the amps used, then he also has to put up $10K....the reason is he knows the challenger is going to put in a ringer...one amp that does sound different to the other two.
post #48 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I totally disagree with that, but I have argued it a million times and don't feel like doing it yet once more. There are dozens of threads on AVS about whether modern SS amps, working within spec and not clipping sound different to each other. I am in the camp that they do not sound different to each other in those circumstances.

EDIT: this thread is the most recent one where I have posted my own views on this topic. The thread is only 18 pages and is a 'fun' read....
When it comes to how amps sound, for me its a split decision. As I said above, many amps do sound the same, or close enough you could not pick them in a blind test.
But that in no way means all amps sound the same. There is a lot to be said about circuit design and the quality of components used.
I think we have all heard about the guy who says he will put up $10k to anyone who can pick a given amp in 3 amp blind tests. If the challenger constantly picks the same amp, he gets the $10k. But, the test is rigged in the favor of the guy putting up the $10. For you just know he did his homework before hand and made sure he picked 3 amps that do sound the same.

Now, if the challenger wants to pick the amps used, then he also has to put up $10K....the reason is he knows the challenger is going to put in a ringer...one amp that does sound different to the other two.

 

There are literally thousands of ABX double blind tests on the net and they all point to the same conclusion: modern SS amps working within spec and not clipping cannot be distinguished one from another. Some of the tests will be flawed, of course, but not all of them. When the same sort of tests come to the same sort of conclusion hundreds and hundreds of times, I trust that conclusion.

post #49 of 103
If there are say half dozen amps all manufactured on the same production line, meaning they are probably using the same components, if not designs...then they should sound the same.
And anyone wanting to prove all amps sound the same are going to be using like amps, although different brands, for their DB tests.
Its just that simple.
post #50 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

If there are say half dozen amps all manufactured on the same production line, meaning they are probably using the same components, if not designs...then they should sound the same.
And anyone wanting to prove all amps sound the same are going to be using like amps, although different brands, for their DB tests.
Its just that simple.
THat's just plain silly. Certainly the stereophile test in whidc Bob Carver made a solid state amp sound just like a tube amp (by adding a resistor to mimic the tube amp's higher output impedance) did not involve two of the same amp.

Just silly to suggest this, IMO. Or perhapw the testers all meet on the grassy knoll to pre-identify amps that are the same thing in different skin before they begin testing.
post #51 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Generally, more speakers are damaged by too little power, than too much power.

Although i used to believe this, too, for a number of years, it is utterly incdorrect. None of my speakers have blown when no power is applied, for example. Moreover, even if clipping the amp creates enough high frequency harmonics to blow the tweeter, what has happened is the tweeter was subjected to TOO MUCH POWER by the added power inherent in the clipped output.

Moreover, if clipping destroyed speakers there would be no Hendrix/Clapton/Eddie Van Halen, and you could not play back their recordings on your stereo. FWIW, most guitar players reportedly will consider a (typical tube) amp at 10 % distortion to be clean-sounding. It's a lot of distortion when it starts sounding different/better.
post #52 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

If there are say half dozen amps all manufactured on the same production line, meaning they are probably using the same components, if not designs...then they should sound the same.
And anyone wanting to prove all amps sound the same are going to be using like amps, although different brands, for their DB tests.
Its just that simple.

 

The thing is, they are ALL alike. Google the tests and you will be convinced - thousands of ABX tests can't all be wrong.

post #53 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

If there are say half dozen amps all manufactured on the same production line, meaning they are probably using the same components, if not designs...then they should sound the same.
And anyone wanting to prove all amps sound the same are going to be using like amps, although different brands, for their DB tests.
Its just that simple.
THat's just plain silly. Certainly the stereophile test in whidc Bob Carver made a solid state amp sound just like a tube amp (by adding a resistor to mimic the tube amp's higher output impedance) did not involve two of the same amp.

Just silly to suggest this, IMO. Or perhapw the testers all meet on the grassy knoll to pre-identify amps that are the same thing in different skin before they begin testing.

 

:)  Quite. Amp design is really easy. The Class A/B amps most of use haven't basically changed in decades. Component quality has improved to the level that the components all easily exceed any audible levels of distortion - further improvement beyond that is not possible. And these components are now cheap too, so they find their way into even low priced kit. 

 

Anyone saying component quality makes a difference in decently designed amps just reveal they don't understand the subject IMO.

post #54 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Generally, more speakers are damaged by too little power, than too much power.

Although i used to believe this, too, for a number of years, it is utterly incdorrect. None of my speakers have blown when no power is applied, for example. Moreover, even if clipping the amp creates enough high frequency harmonics to blow the tweeter, what has happened is the tweeter was subjected to TOO MUCH POWER by the added power inherent in the clipped output.
 

 

Yes, it is true that once clipping sets in the amp can deliver way beyond its rated power, and so it is the power itself that fries the tweeter. But I think the point being made was that underpowered amps are more often driven into clipping than overpowered amps, and so they (the underpowered amps) tend to wreck more speaker drivers than the overpowered amps.

post #55 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

THat's just plain silly. Certainly the stereophile test in whidc Bob Carver made a solid state amp sound just like a tube amp (by adding a resistor to mimic the tube amp's higher output impedance) did not involve two of the same amp.

But w/o that resistor added the SS amp and the tube amp would not sound the same!!! You just proved my point!
Its in the circuitry design as to how an amp will sound.
Much the same with speaker XOs, change the values or circuit design and the resulting sound will be different.

Once again, I did not say all amps sound different. In fact I said most amps will sound the same.
But not all amps sound the same. You obviously can not get your head around those two statements co-habitating in the same world.
post #56 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Its in the circuitry design as to how an amp will sound.
 

 

You're misunderstanding the purpose of an amplifier. The amplifier is meant to take an incoming signal and pass it untouched, other than in amplitude. If the output signal is different in any way, or changed in any way, from the input signal then it is, by definition, distorted. Modern amplifiers have distortion levels so low they are always inaudible.

 

If amps did what you say and were 'designed' to have a particular sound, then they are, by definition, distorting the output signal. If modern amps do NOT distort the output signal then it follows that they cannot 'sound different' one from another.

 

It is easy to give an amp a particular 'sound' (as the Bob Carver experiment proved) and this is called 'using the amp as tone control'. Properly designed modern amps do not function as tone controls - they simply pass the input signal unchanged. And that is why nobody can distinguish one from another in those thousands of ABX tests.

 

Think about it - would you really want your amplifier to be adding a 'sound' of its own to the source material you are listening to? Or do you want it to be totally transparent to the source and simply enable you to hear whatever is on the source BD, CD or whatever?

post #57 of 103
I bought an HK AVR 1700 last month.. I returned it 3 days after I bought it, which was about a day and a half longer then I wanted it heheh. I ended up spending a bit more to get the NAD T748. It's got much more power than the hk does. The osd is not as nice as the hk, but outside of that the NAD is just plain better. I dislike Onkyos, Denon is ok once you get past their lower end offerings. If you have a NAD dealer nearby go for an audition, I'm certain you will be impressed
post #58 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You're misunderstanding the purpose of an amplifier. The amplifier is meant to take an incoming signal and pass it untouched, other than in amplitude. If the output signal is different in any way, or changed in any way, from the input signal then it is, by definition, distorted. Modern amplifiers have distortion levels so low they are always inaudible.

If amps did what you say and were 'designed' to have a particular sound, then they are, by definition, distorting the output signal. If modern amps do NOT distort the output signal then it follows that they cannot 'sound different' one from another.

It is easy to give an amp a particular 'sound' (as the Bob Carver experiment proved) and this is called 'using the amp as tone control'. Properly designed modern amps do not function as tone controls - they simply pass the input signal unchanged. And that is why nobody can distinguish one from another in those thousands of ABX tests.

Think about it - would you really want your amplifier to be adding a 'sound' of its own to the source material you are listening to? Or do you want it to be totally transparent to the source and simply enable you to hear whatever is on the source BD, CD or whatever?

I am not misunderstanding anything. I never said anything about something being added, like Carver likes to do...make a SS amp sound like a distorted tube, which I have never liked.

I'm telling you a few amps will provide a more life like sound, as a more in detailed soundstage. Even more transparent, as if you were listening to live music.
post #59 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I'm telling you a few amps will provide a more life like sound, as a more in detailed soundstage. Even more transparent, as if you were listening to live music.

I have no dog in this fight. But what amps are you referring to that provide an "Even more transparent, as if you were listening to live music" quality over other amps?

Bill
post #60 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You're misunderstanding the purpose of an amplifier. The amplifier is meant to take an incoming signal and pass it untouched, other than in amplitude. If the output signal is different in any way, or changed in any way, from the input signal then it is, by definition, distorted. Modern amplifiers have distortion levels so low they are always inaudible.

If amps did what you say and were 'designed' to have a particular sound, then they are, by definition, distorting the output signal. If modern amps do NOT distort the output signal then it follows that they cannot 'sound different' one from another.

It is easy to give an amp a particular 'sound' (as the Bob Carver experiment proved) and this is called 'using the amp as tone control'. Properly designed modern amps do not function as tone controls - they simply pass the input signal unchanged. And that is why nobody can distinguish one from another in those thousands of ABX tests.

Think about it - would you really want your amplifier to be adding a 'sound' of its own to the source material you are listening to? Or do you want it to be totally transparent to the source and simply enable you to hear whatever is on the source BD, CD or whatever?

I am not misunderstanding anything. I never said anything about something being added, like Carver likes to do...make a SS amp sound like a distorted tube, which I have never liked.

I'm telling you a few amps will provide a more life like sound, as a more in detailed soundstage. Even more transparent, as if you were listening to live music.

 

If you believe an amp should do more than simply take an input and pass it unchanged other than in amplitude then you are misunderstanding what the purpose of an amp is.

 

If you believe that an amp should do no more than simply take an input and pass it unchanged other than in amplitude, then there can be no differences in sound between them. 

 

Soundstage is not really a function of the amplifier - it is more a function of the speakers, the room and the room-speaker interaction. Amps just take an input signal and squeeze it out the other end, but louder.

 

Transparency means that the source is revealed exactly as it is, with nothing added and nothing taken away and nothing enhanced and nothing obscured. How would an amp that is passing the input undistorted to the output (which all modern SS amps do - check the specs) be more 'transparent' than any other doing the same job?

 

There is no voodoo to amp design, no secret sauce, no magic - it's just really simple electronic engineering. So simple that nowadays they are perfected and thus all sound the same, when working within spec and not clipping. Components are not an issue - they all behave well within the limits of human audibility wrt to distortion and they are so cheap these days that you will find them in even $300 receivers. Once a component measures beyond what we can hear, there is no point (other than marketing) in improving it further - so 0.05% THD is no different to 0.01% THD, other than for the sales brochure.

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