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Is D65 neutral gray or just a tinge blue - Page 2

post #31 of 66
Now that's annoying. smile.gif

PM me if you want to say anything to me. It will remain private.

My intent is not to hurt the calibration community in anyway and I won't take any action to do so..
post #32 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

No. Many of the old line calibrators are getting fairly old and do not have great vision any longer.But the calibrator can respond to what the customer says. It looks too blue. It looks too yellow. In my case he could add blue with me telling him when enough. And it would be fairly repeatable.

Your position is inflexible and the best you can say is get your single display calibrated so you will look at the same dis[lay colors as the artistic team looked at even though you will see them GROSSLY WRONG but you will see them that way too if outdoors under d65 conditions. Perfect. No thanks. That's what you want me to buy equipment, programs, and take classes to do or hire a Pro to do that. I realize I have all that already and can do it myself.

But that's your position and you are stcking too it saying that's tough, there nothing a calibrator can or should do.

That my friend is where we differ. Going beyond the meters amd the standards to take the customers vision into account as the customer perceives it is far better than the customer living with gross color errors as he perceives thing. Better, far better, and a better use of science or whatever, to get the thing off the ground. To let the customer fly instead of being stuck in the control tower with a dogmatic calibrator.

We're not inflexible. The issue is that this is YOUR problem and it is NOT widespread... something difficult to keep in perspective when you have the issue. As I've posted before, in all the calibrations I've done, every single one of them has produced extremely positive customer feedback using d65 as the aim point... all of them. And I've done quite a few displays for customers in their 60s and 70s. So just because YOU have the issue, doesn't mean it is common or widespread or even something to be worth your constantly bringing it up in thread after thread. Deal with it on your own. It's not a problem for most people. I've even tested my 84-year-old mother's vision, and she has cataracts, and d65 looked neutral to her while d58 looked too yellow and d75 looked too blue. So even having cataracts doesn't guarantee there will be a color offset involved. So, really, you need to drop the constant reminders about your issue because it is NOT something affecting too many people... repeating it ad infinitum doesn't help anybody.

The fact that you've been contacted by some other AVS members means little because there are thousands of AVS users (maybe 10s of thousands). If a handful of them have an issue... you started a thread to discuss it and that's really all we need. We don't need to see your posts on the topic spreading like a flesh eating virus to almost any thread that has anything to do with calibration. Enough already!
Edited by Doug Blackburn - 3/7/13 at 7:31pm
post #33 of 66
I think I will reread one of your recent reviews. It will boost my spirits knowing that it is your professional work product and it is by the same man who wrote the above post. I am sorry that you are so angry but its your problem, isn't it. At least it proves that you still have some spunk. Every person i have talked to who has had one caterac replaced has commented how drastically different the colors look out of the new lens eye and how wrong they had been seeing colors. Your conclusions are specious at best, You are wrong and you are misleading others. I know its what you believe and i am not condemning you because you expound them. It is a widespread problem but hey your conclusions are yours and you are free to expound them. If I would raise what I am saying here to any of them, those who would or have gotten a display calibrated, they would fully concur. Make the colors right for my eyes. Fortunately, many get a second lens and the problem goes away. A book calibration makes it right for them The issue isn't me with one clear lens, Its the population with heavily yellowed two lenses and the medical literature is resplendent with the incidence of such for each age. Most don't know how much their color perception has changed. I didn't either. Your conclusion doesn't help them. There is no problem. In reality, if the don't perceive the colors correctly, so what? Its easy to live with. And if we can sell them a calibration what the hell. Who does it harm. They think they will get to see the colors the wae way the director intended. Its only what they think that counts. If they don't know they won't bitch. So you are right. Just like someone dying or a desease with symptoms only at the end, There is no problem. Atta boy. I look forward to reading more of the insightful conclusions in your WSR reviews. They are invaluable.
post #34 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

George. I don't know about the color of my dreams. Adding compensating color filters to ones eyes eats up too much of the light coming off the screen. I tried it with filters sent me by a poster in this forum.

Wouter the problem afflicts many and I have been in communication with many AVSers who have the same problem. The hostility to my suggestion only comes from tha calibration community. If it bothers you discussing it here, and this thread was not started by me but by someone who saw gray being blue tinged. i suggested a fix. And Sotti esculated the discussion. That was his choice. If Sotti says its OK, I will take this to the projector threads to elucidate very clearly that a calibration does not necesarily mean one will see the colors as the director and colorist perceived them. i have attempted to contain the discussion herein to this forum where consumers seeking calibrations, an ISF calibration, generally don't populate. My comments are on point in this thread as well as the other one. I will continually respond to post such as yours. If you want the thread to end for whatever reason you and others simply can cease to respond. I am not trying to win a popularity contest. My position is valid despite what the majority of the calibration community thinks. Sotti understands my points and in numerous posts has recognized the problem. He does find fault with my solution but can't come up with a better one. My point, if its the best one has and one has the problem you might as well try it.

I find many of the responses here annoying but I choose to suffer through them. Just the kinda guy I am. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The bloody issue is how one sees it when it, the display, has been calibrated correctly. Depending on your eyes you could see it being other than gray but display wise it isn't tinged. Only your eyes are screwed up and you perceive it as tinged blue. You will find this forum very sympathetic to this issue but they will claim there is nothing they should do or in good conscience should do. My solution for personal viewing is to just click down the b gain until the grayscale looks gray to you. The only thing in the end that counts is how the colors look to you and not the meter. If its wrong, its wrong, but you are seeing it wrong anyway after calibration if it appears blue tinged.

"The bloody issue?" Sounds escalating to me.

I'm a bit surprised you have forgotten a very fundamental issue in imaging science. You have rehearsed some of your training and exposure over the years in a few threads in this area of the forum. The answer to the OP's question has been addressed adequately by others in this thread, but not by you. The technically "neutral" white point in color space is the "E" (equal energy) point, x- 0.333 / y- 0.333, approximately 5400K. The D65 white point for gray scale is "very slightly blue."

The reported history of how a 6500K color temperature (D65 white point) was decided early on by video engineers who standardized the video system is this. A slightly blue gray scale made white look brighter on CRT displays without elevating light output into the range of non-linearity. The engineers reasoned that it was a blue-white, just short of the threshold where most viewers would recognize it as actually blue. Later, TV manufacturers engaged in their brightness wars in competition on the retail show floor for the brightest looking product, and introduced blue-er and blue-er color temperatures. This screwed up the appearance of skin tones and was compensated for by "red push" in color decoding circuits and "flesh tone" compensation features. US consumer televisions were a mess until Joe Kane started his mission promoting the return to standards for consumer displays.

Another fundamental principle in imaging science that applies to most viewers is the ready adaptability of the human visual system. This can apply to both color vision and the perception of white. Here is a quote from Poynton that illustrates this principle of adaptation:

"Monitor white reference: In additive mixture, the illumination of the reproduced image is generated entirely by the display device. In particular, reproduced white is determined by the characteristics of the display, and is not dependent on the environment in which the display is viewed. In a completely dark viewing environment, such as a cinema theater, this is desirable; a wide range of chromaticities is accepted as “white.” However, in an environment where the viewer’s field of view encompasses objects other than the display, the viewer’s notion of “white” is likely to be influenced or even dominated by what he or she perceives as “white” in the ambient. To avoid subjective mismatches, the chromaticity of white reproduced by the display and the chromaticity of white in the ambient should be reasonably close." from Charles A. Poynton's, 'Digital Video and HDTV Algorithms and Interfaces'

This adaptation occurs primarily in the visual cortex of the brain, not in the physiology of the eyes. Video calibration avoids this adaptation phenomenon by using reference standard test signals and objective instrumentation. Image fidelity is preserved from mastering to exhibition by having displays that all play by the same rules. Consumers typically have no idea what a video program is supposed to look like. The white point of the natural world is constantly changing, due to how the color of sunlight is never constant. Neither the natural world, nor commercial cinemas, fully match the color capabilities of video. Visual memory is also notoriously fickle. Just ask any experienced criminal trial attorney how widely eye-witness testimony of an event can vary.

Video program production, mastering, and distribution are not conducted with any regard for the wide variation of color vision among the eventual viewers. I doubt seriously any video colorist is going to last long in the industry if their color vision is seriously skewed. They are not the only professionals involved in final image analysis and approval. Are there exceptions to this, or mistakes made on relatively rare occasions? Of course! How would a consumer know if the program they are watching is askew or as intended? They can only guess. Our only hope for a system that retains image fidelity is through the current display industry calibration process. This system works amazingly well for the vast majority of viewers. Of course, this is the focus of this area of the forum. Promoting other methodologies has resulted in annoying distractions at best.

To say that you have "been in communication with many AVSers who have the same problem" is no surprise to me. There is no shortage of members of this forum who have no clue about imaging science principles and how they work within the context of human visual perception. It's a constant challenge to correct the misunderstanding and confusion between our standardized video system and viewer preference and/or anecdotal perceptions.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
Edited by GeorgeAB - 3/25/13 at 10:29am
post #35 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Now that's annoying. smile.gif

PM me if you want to say anything to me. It will remain private.

My intent is not to hurt the calibration community in anyway and I won't take any action to do so..

Sometimes you have to come to the realisation that there is no point to it, it's not worth the effort.

That you find that annoying really is your problem, not mine, isn't it.
post #36 of 66
Hi George,

I completely agree with everything you said above. It was complete and very well said and incredibly to the point.

I did want to bring up one point about our trial subject Mr. Haflich. Having one bad eye and one good eye is an easy way to short circuit the brain's adaptive models, since you can rapidly change between two distinctly different versions of reality. With Mark's ability to rapidly switch one good eye to one bad eye, he could effectively color match D65 with his good eye to whatever his bad eye sees and likely do it reliably. Of course only Mark can do that. As soon as Mark leaves the room, all the repeatability is gone with him. Which I can understand makes this so frustrating for him.

But the choice to alter the signal to his vision has implications that bring up a rabbit's hole of what ifs. What if you video tape a birthday party in the kitchen with the blueish white counter top (because she saw the neutral tiles as off white) and watch it on your compensated TV. Is the counter is really as blue as it would look in the video? if it does and you wanted white, then you picked the wrong counter. If the counter is the correct color white for you, then shouldn't the video tape be adjusted to reproduce the counter as white? Making that choice means that one of your two choices is wrong. These kinds of consistency issues are exactly what Calibration resolves.
Edited by sotti - 3/7/13 at 11:11pm
post #37 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Making people aware of a problem and getting them to think about it should not be perceived as aggravation. That is not my intent. If it causes aggravation so be it..

But that's the whole point. WE HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT! We've given you our thoughts on the subject, you just don't like the answer(s) we have given.

Some of us have even given you a couple or three jumping off points to attack your specific issue ...

It's not that we don't care, it's just that we don't have a solution that can pass scientific review.

Your "solution" to the problem (tinkering with the white-point) is really no better than those who claim they can "calibrate" by eyeball alone.

Even if you manage to find a magic white point, you still haven't shifted the rest of the gamut ... (deep) blue will never be blue enough because (in most cases) you'll run into the physical limitation(s) of the display gamut.

So in summary, yes we have thought about it. smile.gif Perhaps you should spend a little more time thinking about it too.

In your case, I suspect the only real solution/resolution will come in a year or two when your eye doctor feels it is safe to replace your other (yellowed) lens.

PS: At least with hearing issues (loss of high frequencies etc,) there's a scientific way of determining just how bad the problem has become ... this is the crucial missing link ... without that starting point, it's just the blind leading the blind.
Edited by HDTVChallenged - 3/7/13 at 11:26pm
post #38 of 66
Thanks George and Sotti.
post #39 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Making people aware of a problem and getting them to think about it should not be perceived as aggravation. That is not my intent. If it causes aggravation so be it..

But that's the whole point. WE HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT! ......

In your case, I suspect the only real solution/resolution will come in a year or two when your eye doctor feels it is safe to replace your other (yellowed) lens.

PS: ......without that starting point, it's just the blind leading the blind.
"The blind leading the blind!" A marvelously apt summation! "Brevity is the soul of wit." William Shakespeare
post #40 of 66
George. Exactly what do you manufacturer?

You write a well thought out post and then your inner child comes out and you disparage in a follow up.

Exactly how many paid calibrations do you do a year? Today with the right conversion program that audibly gave numerical readings, a calibrator could be color blind. He would accomplish the same color results as a calibrator with perfect eyes. (setting sharpness, brightness and contrast reqwuires visual observation and vertain skills) And that's a good thing. There is no place for subjectiveness in color calibration.

I understand where by the book calibration stops. How much a great and wonderful thing it is. And it is for many purposes. How much benefit it is to a HT owner, getting exact colors on his display is another thing.

Getting a 3D lut yada yada, it just not that critical for HT use. A cheap meter and DIY with Calman or Chromapure.

Anyhow I degress. The blind leading the blind. The ignorance of so many. The color impaired don't have a problem. They just don't undestand what calibration is.
You are a long time internet friend and we have agreed on many points over the years. We have spoken on the phone. Your long post was so invaluable and then you spoil it and make me question exactly what you are and why you say what you say. Did it make you feel good or gain you stature in the community?

Open your eyes. There is a problem and in making things better for the color impaired they may have to be led by the color impaired. Unfortunately, there is a place for subjectiveness in compensating for color impairment. There is no other choice right now. It works for me and it works well and Sotti God bless him understands that.

Learn from Sotti. There is nothing wrong with getting or doing a calibration and doing whatever one feels makes it better for his/her color impairment. It won't denegrate on many of the benfits or calibration. My criticism is limited to the benefits of color display accuracy for the HT owner. On the obsession the calibration community has on obtaining vanish des over a zillion points. For years, all we had was 2 point gray scale calibration with only expensive probes for doing it. There were no CMS controls. Perhaps you don't remember, but we had to change a resistor in rear projection Pioneer sets to make the color decoder more accurate. A calibrator needing a soldering iron. I remember customers saying Oh Wow when it was done. Its all so much better now and so easy and inexpensive to do.

Try to remember a non insulting slogan. To earn respect one must give respect.
post #41 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

George. Exactly what do you manufacturer?

Perhaps you could respond to the post you really have issue with, instead of further antagonizing a third party??? rolleyes.gif

When you solve the problem of how to scientifically measure the degree to which one's eyes have degraded/yellowed then you can 'start to make it better.'

Otherwise, what you advocate is no different than arguing that one can set greyscale/whitepoint by eye alone. I honestly don't understand how you don't understand that.

Please don't make me invoke the "T-word." FWIW, I suspect that whatever "respect" you've earned over the past 13(ish) years in the forum is being cashed in at a rapidly accelerating rate.

PS: For my part, I'm impressed with how patient, restrained and thoughtful George, Doug and Joel (et al) have been in responding to you.
Edited by HDTVChallenged - 3/8/13 at 10:30am
post #42 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

....To earn respect one must give respect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

2/9/13

You are entitled to your opinion.

No customer who pays for a calibration in his HT does it because he wants the colors to be different than whoever in the movie production chain wanted them to lo to the ewatcher of a movie.

For a normal viewer calibrating to the mastering standard will do that. Some of the colors will have been moved by the colorist from their true location to one within rec 709. Hopefully, within a few years we will have much wider color spaces and longer bit lengths yada yada,

No my scientific calibrator friends. I want to see the colors as the movie production team intended. That was probably in their right location within the DCI space but will let it go ad say the miserable limited rec 709 space. Yea. Your color God sucks. But a new day is coming slowly.

Now the customers should say, I want to se it as they intended me to see it. Duh. that's why the 3D customer says, calibrate through the glasses PLEASE, offset those filters in the glasses.
WTF does it make that th customer has filters in his eye instead of in his 3D glasses. Not the NORMAL assumed filters of the standardized observerer.I can't do that. i use a meter not your eyes. Imposssible Good bye.
I am here to make it consistently wrong for you, Consistent as you would see it wrong on the set assuming it was shot under d65 light, yea right, or as you would see them under d 65 light. I am Fing Holy and I calibrate to make your display look like all other calibrated displays within your and their display limitations.There is no objectively rigght color for your eyes. Just for displays and then displayes viewed under ideal conditions.h

I've done my job and I am freekin great. Pay me. Goodbye.


Everyone thinks I will get used to the color inbalance. I never said I wasn't used to it. I have no problem seeing with it. My brain, to the extent I have one, melds the two different call them data streams coming from each eye and I see a color spectrum halfway or so between the two.

My problem here is knowing that what I see is not what was intended and how that can be fixed.

Years ago i and those at FP projector factories actually used our eyes to calibrate. WTF. No. Tell me no. No meter. What would you do. Go home?

No. We hade 6500 degree comparators. Joe Kane sold one. I once had a box with a 6500K flurescent bulb, through holes drilled on a board pannel to stimulate varies stimulus levels, 20, 80 etc, I don't rember the three exactly and then through a piece of diffuse glass or plastic. Every technician that calibrated at the factory used that box as his gray scale calibration tool, that and his eyes.

Don't tell me about calibration and solutions , idiotic solutions, to maintain the error I see. I guess some of you are so stuck, you are meter and standard guys and that's the goal.

It may be when a display job is to exactly be the sme as another display.but you guys should not be allowed in a customer's HT. And you shouldn't be brain washing consumers. I want the calibrator who understands his job is to make the HT produce the best picture it can for the customer. The most accurate through the eyes, not before it. Who knows when to put his meter away and make it look it better to the viewer. The calibrator who makes it the best looking despite it not meeting all standards, because of display limitations, a primary color not having enough saturation, a screen being too big, the lighting or ewalls not being ideal..You know the fecal an expert calibrator of HTs, who has enough business to list it as his primary occupation deals with every day.


What this thread was about was the filtering in the eyes of old people, something I was unaware off. How much my eyes had yellowed and how to deal with one clear eye and one yellow now. How to make the colors i se right and not how to make them consistentl wrong. Can you grasp the concept. And we are dealing with two different filters. Finding the yellow one that matches my bad eye and putting it on the meter won't help.

i appreciate the posting but you I am afraid can't get around the system to find a workable solution. Just say its normal and there is no actual standard for what you see. BS. The standard is the display standard unde ideal viewing conditiions and by niormal eyes. Its absolute. Its what I want. The concept is devising offsets to calibrate for the last step, not where the meter measures, before the eyes, but through the eyes. If it could be done by some sort of meter, you guys would do and shout to the customer probably making him deaf that you did it. But no. Your tools are limited, you can't do it with a meter, a chart, a ptrogram, so belittle trying to do it. I think I will call you it is what it is guys

I have raised a real world problem Calibrating for the eyes the customer has..

Edited by GeorgeAB - 3/8/13 at 12:36pm
post #43 of 66
I asked him because his avatar says he was a manufacturer.

I wan't deprecating him with that question. I didn't know he was a manufacturer.
I don't know you and frankly I have no respect for you or for that matter any disrespect unlike George who I have known for years and most always respect.

Your posts are of a nature that I choose not to respond to except this one where you ask me a question. BTW The only T word I can think of is troll. If that's what you think I am, so be it. Tell you what. I will add you to my ignore list. Than I won't see your posts unless someone quotes them.

Sotti is a successful business person in the calibration support industry.That is why he has patience with the posts of one of his customers and posts constructively. I continue to learn from him.

Doug and George I have know for years though I have never to my rememberance ever have met George personally. I am quite surprised at some of their actions. I will challenge them head on and they know it and expect it.

Doug I know believes what he has said and his perception of a non problem. George I just don't know why he acts in some of his post as a good guy and then as an insulting bad guy to me. I tried to convey my feelings to George. I have complemented him on a great post of which he spent considerable time in drafting. At least for me it won't destroy my friendship with George or Doug. How they feel after this thread is their business. As for you, frankly Charlotte I don't give a damn.

You may be great at what you do and you may be a great guy. I wish you no ill will. i do not want to attack you. That would be against forum rules and would be in bad taste. But to me, based on your posts here, you are nothing to me as I am to you except for being a troll.

i hope that explains why I didn't respond to you. I wish you nothing but success and I hope you continue to contribute and take benefit from the forums as well. Best of luck.
post #44 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post


George my position has evolved since that post mostly do the excellant knowledge conveyed by Sotti, Your long constructive post helped too.. You seem by your quote of an old post to be saying mommy he hit me first so its OK how I act.

I ain't perfect. I expect you to be. smile.gif

I have to go out for awhile. Actually to the paint store to get some chips matched using their spectroradiometer. Man do the paint companies charge a bundle for that tool. But its idiot proof. But post away. I'll be back later.
Edited by mark haflich - 3/8/13 at 2:27pm
post #45 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post


i hope that explains why I didn't respond to you. I wish you nothing but success and I hope you continue to contribute and take benefit from the forums as well. Best of luck.

Looky ... a quote ... that's how we can tell who is responding to whom in the forum.

For the record, the reason I might seem a bit aggressive here is that there's is a obvious fatal flaw in what you propose as a solution. When this flaw has been has been pointed out (repeatedly across several threads, now, ) you either choose to ignore it a/o double down on your proposal.

I've directly asked you several times," How do you propose to measure the (color) response of your degraded eye(s.)" You've yet to respond.

You can't correct for something you can't measure, it's that simple. There's no need to proceed further until you/we can solve the first step. Others have simply chosen to be more "gentle" in their thoughts.

And that's just the first problem ... I see several more down the line.

And yes as George pointed out, it doesn't help anything when you essentially accuse an entire "profession" of being "snake-oil salesmen." Not a good place to start.
post #46 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

. I am sorry that you are so angry but its your problem, isn't it.

It is your problem because you keep hijacking threads with your own agenda. You started a thread to alert people to the issue and people who have the issue or calibrators who happen across a customer who has the issue can ALL discuss the issue and how to best deal with it in the ONE THREAD YOU STARTED. Making a crusade out of it, cross-posting in many threads where there is no reason to do so is the ONLY problem here. Nobody is saying your point isn't valid. I said your point is not the huge issue you are making out of it and that your personal issue with it is causing you to do things that are annoying to forum participants.

There are forum rules and online etiquette about NOT hijacking threads with your own agenda. We're annoyed because you are being annoying. Period. Somebody has to say it... may as well be me. Nobody is saying you can't discuss the issue... we're saying you can't keep bringing it up in thread after thread. Keep the topic in the thread you started about it. Period.

You have a point. You made it. You started a thread to discuss the issue. There is no easy answer. There is no easy solution. Move on. You are very welcome to keep obsessing about it IN THE THREAD YOU STARTED where anyone reading it is interested. You seem to be obsessed with keeping the discussion going with people who want you to stop. Do you understand how annoying that is? If not, you need to take some steps back and think about it. Heck, some day I may run into a situation where I need to see what the current thinking is on the topic. I never said it wouldn't happen. I said IT HAS NOT HAPPENED (yet) and has not been an issue FOR ME... ever. If it does become an issue for me at some point, I'll happily go back to your thread and catch up on the discussion. What we don't need is for your (apparent) obsession/crusade overflowing into other parts of the forum. I'm not saying your wrong about ANYTHING (except about how widespread the issue is). I'm saying you're being annoying about it by bringing it up in unrelated threads in spite of forum rules and general online etiquette. If you think I'm wrong, PLEASE ask that a moderator have a look at the thread and comment on whether I'm being off-base here (keeping in mind that this is not the only calibration thread you've posted in about your issue). Of course you could just dismiss the moderator's comments as being specious if they agree with those of us who are asking you to stop. That's always an easy side step.
post #47 of 66
HDTV.

The point is a problem exists and any solution to try and alleviate the problem is IMNSHO is better than saying there is no solution, live with it.. As Sotti notes because of having one non filtered eye and being somewhat skilled, I can match comparatively to make boith eyes together see what my good eye sees alone. For one with two filtered eyes the only tool that person has is his two eyes and his memory of what white looked like. It ain't a great solution but its better than throwing up ones hands and saying live with it.

Is it not like saying there is no cure and trying something experimental and unscientific. It doesn't cost anything to try. If the person feels the results are better, whites don't look yellow tinged, what is the harm. Surely you can understand this.

The average person who seekks a caibration, thinks wrongly that a calibration will get him the colors the artistic chain perceived. That won't necessarily happen for a variety of reasons. All should know this going in and older viewers should be especially made aware of this. We here know it, calibration won't give you that if you have filtered vision.

None of this should be taken as a condemnation. Calibration makes your display the same colors as are displayed in the artistic chain. If you know your vision is color impaired, you can do something non scientific that may make it more accurate for you. No guarantees.
post #48 of 66
Doug. I do not keep hijacking threads. Comments are in two threads. Two. That's it.

I made a comment in this thread as to if one saw a gray scales a being too blue it being slightly blue under the standards. Sotti responded and the subject of the first thread continued in earnest here. The discussion of the color of the gray scale ended and continued in a different vane here. So what? Much valuable information was added. A bad thing? Two threads a bad thing? Come on my friend.
post #49 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Doug. I do not keep hijacking threads. Comments are in two threads. Two. That's it.
Sorry, this is simply not true. A simple search shows you have posted of this "problem" in at least 4 threads. These threads:

If you are over 65 and have impaired color vision due to cataract yellowing you may want to... (YOUR ORIGINAL THREAD)
AND
Question about color temps and "correct" looking whites
AND
Is D65 neutral gray or just a tinge blue
AND
Who cares about 4K? I want local dimming based projectors!

IMO the original thread would suffice.
post #50 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Doug. I do not keep hijacking threads. Comments are in two threads. Two. That's it.

I made a comment in this thread as to if one saw a gray scales a being too blue it being slightly blue under the standards. Sotti responded and the subject of the first thread continued in earnest here. The discussion of the color of the gray scale ended and continued in a different vane here. So what? Much valuable information was added. A bad thing? Two threads a bad thing? Come on my friend.

Make that three:

2/17/13
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

I have to say I'm pretty confused about what color temperature you should use to get the most accurate results. I understand about 6500k, so I'm assuming you would want to use whatever setting is closest to that, and it usually happens to be one of the warmer settings? Also, I'm curious what whites should actually look like if the temp is set properly. On my current LCD that I'm replacing, a pure white background on the warm setting looks yellowish, normal looks slightly off-white, and cool looks like 255 white. I'm assuming warm can't be right, but I don't really know which white is correct out of the normal and cool setting. I'm also confused about the 16-235 scale of blacks and whites that you would set your display to using a gray-scale from a calibration disk.

Does that mean that the TV doesn't differentiate between blacks below 16 and whites above 235? If white is naturally supposed to look closer 235 and not 255 then that would lead me to believe the blinding bright white I get from the cool setting might not be accurate. I understand the cool setting can look too blue if it's over 9,500K, but I don't see any hint of blue in a full white background nor do I see any hint of bluish grays. I'm guessing the entire set is probably on the warmer side for all settings, (lower temps) but as I said I'm replacing it. I'm just trying to wrap my head around all this for when I have to set up the new TV. Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand all this before I get my new TV or it will drive me crazy.

I don't have the exact image for reference, but In the link below my TV definitely looks closer to the middle picture on the Cool setting.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20064010-1/what-is-tv-color-temperature-and-why-does-it-matter/


How old are you. when my displays are calibrated precisely the whites look somewhat yellow because one of my eyes has a cataract that has considerable yellowed. The other eye has a new lens and is essentially clear. Using both eyes the result is a yellow whiute about halfway between what each eye sees. Most older people eyes have yellowed considerably and calibrating to the standards which are based on an assumed normal vision will not yield you the results the artistic chain intended for you.

But you see the purpose of calibration is not to achieve that result for you. It is to make your display consistent with all other calibrated displays so matter where yo go you wull se it consistently wrong. The calibration industry which is dependent on the salke of probes, programs, and cailbration services will try to defend this. Admittantly there is no real scientific way for them to provide otherwise. Expensive eye tests could be conducted on you by certain opthamolgists who soecialize in color blindness etc and a correction factor to offset the yellow coloration could be more or less scientifically derived.

To keep my calibrator friends happy, and most of them are a fundamentally unhappy lot, I would stasrt with a calibrastion and store it away. Then I would say to the calibrator. The whites don't look white to my eyes. They look somewhat yellow. If he starts to say something, tell him he works for you and to shut up. Then have him crank in some blue gain and tell him to stop when the whites look white to you. Or you can do all this yourself if you are the calibrator.
post #51 of 66
Sorry three. And sorry for the typoes.

The third thread definately is a hijack. No it isn't! I responded to a problem. Whenever in the future a problem like that is noted I will just just roll over. No point in offering a suggestion that doesn't past the Congregation's muster. Sorry Sorry Sorry. I have offended the calibration Gods.


Mark roll over because we told him too? I don't think that's a reality. He's not the type to roll over on his beliefs.

Next time someone posts about a color perception problem, I'll buy a ticket, strap myself into my chair, turn off my cell phone, and post.


Till then. You guys can have the last word. just don't assume I agree with what you will say by not responding. Its time this thread ended. But posting last should make you feel good and that's the least I can do for you. smile.gif Sorry post and then let's let this thread die. The subject will be raised by others in new threads and I will be there.
post #52 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The subject will be raised by others in new threads and I will be there.

You really need to take your issue to an ophthalmology forum.

If I were to walk into your theater room and access your spiel I would say "Thank you. No calibration. No charge."

I suggest you adjust Brightness, Contrast, Color, and Tint until it looks right to you. Done.
post #53 of 66
I don't understand why Sunrise is around 2000k which is warmer Temp,but I don't see much red at that time.It looks blue in morning too me...and at noon I see more red ,yet noon is 6500 k which is more blue temp. Is it just my eyes or can someone explain ?
post #54 of 66
Geography?
post #55 of 66
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

I don't understand why Sunrise is around 2000k which is warmer Temp,but I don't see much red at that time.It looks blue in morning too me...and at noon I see more red ,yet noon is 6500 k which is more blue temp. Is it just my eyes or can someone explain ?

The eye and brain have a large capacity to color correct.

I can't say for certain what the color temperature of "your" sunrise is without measuring it but consider an alternate example. How yellow red does your incandesent light appear at night? Then set your digital camera white balance to "daylight" and snap some photos. That is the amount of correction your eye/brain is doing.

Now that makes it sound like there's no point in calibrating as the brain will fix it. What I've found is if I'm consciously thinking about it, I'll see many more color errors than if I'm just casually watching TV. You also have other cues such as knowing what color a particular football jersy looks like and know whether it is or isn't what you're viewing on your display.
post #56 of 66
If your asking where I am it's around Vancouver bc
post #57 of 66
Jim I find I have to take a few days or more break from calibrating..It works better that way for me..Then eventually I spot the next error to be corrected(it usually takes a few days or more of tv watching to spot errors)- knowing that perfection will never be fully achieved
post #58 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

I don't understand why Sunrise is around 2000k which is warmer Temp,but I don't see much red at that time.It looks blue in morning too me...and at noon I see more red ,yet noon is 6500 k which is more blue temp. Is it just my eyes or can someone explain ?
Unfortunately, too many people calibrating displays have either never been taught certain imaging science fundamentals, or have forgotten them. This is less common among professionals who have been formally trained. Comprehensive understanding is built over time. If a solid foundation is not laid in imaging science principles, concepts can be misapplied and errors made when attempting to solve problems. Calibrating a display device by following certain prescribed steps, and knowing which controls to turn up or down, may result in the right graph or numerical value target. However, the goal is not a set of correct numbers on one device.

Display calibration must be understood as display system calibration, if the proper goal is to be achieved. We calibrate television displays because we want the most authentic depiction of a moving picture program. As Joe Kane has persisted in saying, "It's all about the art." Every component in a video system must be considered when aligning it for the best viewing experience of a reproduced program. Those components include the display, the video signal, interconnecting methods, the source device providing the program signal, the viewing environment conditions, and last but not least- the viewer. All these parts contribute to the whole viewing experience. Frequently, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This "whole" begins first in the comprehension of the individual composing the system. The "whole" of how the system performs comes from the "whole" in the head of the system designer.

Never forget that there is a difference between theory and practice. Saying daylight at sunrise is around 2000K, and noon is 6500K, is theoretical. In practice, the color of daylight is subject to a vast array of variables, even at a given time of day. Not taking those practical variables into account can result in a half-vast understanding of what to expect. When you say that what you see at these times of day is a certain way, what are you specifically looking at- the sky, the sun, the surface of an object? Your answer will be helpful in determining why you have the dilemma you describe.
post #59 of 66
I'm looking at reflections off white objects.. not sky or sun..I just thought if sunrise is around 2000k I should be seeing a lot of red,yellow at that time, but I don't. I see more reds and yellows at noon... I guess I'll chalk it up to the changing eyes.

It doesn't matter too me if it's purple. I'm just wondering if anyone has any explanation.I know if you don't have enough red in the gains the picture does Not look as rich.ive always found it hard to get the red gain right on this tv and other tvs(This one only has 2 point) ,as the brightest brights always are leaning blue.I've finally got it about good enough though..if only the flesh control would not leave the red Color in the ears,cheeks,lips when reducing it I could crank up the color more. Oh well I've still got a good tv up to this point.
Edited by Vic12345 - 3/20/13 at 1:00am
post #60 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

I don't understand why Sunrise is around 2000k which is warmer Temp,but I don't see much red at that time.It looks blue in morning too me...and at noon I see more red ,yet noon is 6500 k which is more blue temp. Is it just my eyes or can someone explain ?

There's a reason photographers refer to the hour after sunrise and the hour before sunset as "the golden hour."
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP 
How yellow red does your incandesent light appear at night? Then set your digital camera white balance to "daylight" and snap some photos. That is the amount of correction your eye/brain is doing.

Excellent example ... another version of that experiment is to use high speed film under incandesent light without any flash. Marvel at how brownish the picture will appear compared to your "live" perceptions.

Reason number 1001 why you simply can not trust your eyes (or "memory".)
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