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PlayStation 4 - Page 6

post #151 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post


RAM is the only real limit on Wii U versions of games, and even then it is only a factor once games stop being made for the 360 and PS3. That won't happen for several years as it is cheaper to make a 360 game and port it everywhere else.

I'm wondering, as we're in uncharted waters. PS360 games are still very expensive to dev, and getting games up and running on the new consoles (and porting to PC) is going to be relatively simple and cost effective. Downgrading them to get them to both run on the old consoles architecture, and also fit in their RAM limitations is going to be pricey.

Honestly, I expect the "old" generation to die much more quickly this time around, Unless it becomes much more easy to make those conversions. Especially as consumer expectations have increased exponentially for what is a good game, vs what is not; you just can't release shovelware and expect it to be worth it like the PS2/XBox days where it was very easy to create much simpler games that people felt were good enough.

I guess well see, but it's well known Nintendo already is having major issue with 3rd party developers yet again. Add in developer aversion to the costs of Power PC development...
post #152 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

I'm wondering, as we're in uncharted waters. PS360 games are still very expensive to dev, and getting games up and running on the new consoles (and porting to PC) is going to be relatively simple and cost effective. Downgrading them to get them to both run on the old consoles architecture, and also fit in their RAM limitations is going to be pricey.
The down-ports will probably be quick and dirty, as always in the transitional years. It will also take a while before multiplatform development figures out how to accommodate more than just a few processing cores. So for the first year or two, it'll be a trivial thing to have current and past gen versions released alongside one another.
Quote:
Honestly, I expect the "old" generation to die much more quickly this time around, Unless it becomes much more easy to make those conversions. Especially as consumer expectations have increased exponentially for what is a good game, vs what is not; you just can't release shovelware and expect it to be worth it like the PS2/XBox days where it was very easy to create much simpler games that people felt were good enough.
The problem though is that the big console publishers have grown incredibly conservative in their business strategies. So they'll probably hedge their bets by supporting the large consumer base of the old consoles. In the past, publishers generally push the newer platform, and it was mostly just the yearly sports franchises and movie tie-ins that continued to support old consoles (with a few other outliers here and there from publishers like Atlus). But this could be the first generation where we see a lot more cross-generation releases.

The only thing we know is that we're entering uncharted territory. This generational transition is unlike any in the recent past. The tech isn't a huge leap. There are some major alternatives to console and portable gaming. The business models have changed radically. And money is tighter than ever.
post #153 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

RAM is the only real limit on Wii U versions of games, and even then it is only a factor once games stop being made for the 360 and PS3. That won't happen for several years as it is cheaper to make a 360 game and port it everywhere else.

The problem is that 3rd party developers aren't even supporting the Wii U NOW. I would have bought the Wii U versions of Dead Space 3, DmC and Metal Gear Rising, if they had existed, just to support the console. Similarly, other upcoming games that I'm interested in, like Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite, are also MIA.

The only Wii U game that looks significantly better than current PS3/360 offerings is Monolith Soft's Project X. For an open world game, it looks pretty awesome -- unfortunately, there isn't even a hint of a release date. Sadly, there is only one game I'm planning to buy for my Wii U this year, and that's Wind Waker HD. I'm not disappointed (I was planning on using it as my Nintendo exclusive box), but am a little concerned for the Wii U's future. I read that this is the first console that Nintendo is selling at a loss, so I don't know if an early price cut will turn things around (like it did for the 3DS).
post #154 of 15144
The lack of Wii U support is odd, I feel that something happened behind the scenes to cause the lack of support. The Rayman fiasco really supports that as well. We do know there is some form of used game lockout on the PS4, that probably has something to do with it. (The Wii U has no such lockout)
post #155 of 15144
I've read on a few posts in other places that their could have been a deal with Microsoft in that if it's not released at the same time as the 360 version, then it wont be allowed on it. I don't know if it's just people joking or if their being serious. It's hard to tell.


Still, I did read this that made me think about those posts I read.
Quote:
No, I think it's safe to say we're done now with Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath HD - that includes the chance of doing an Xbox 360 version, the last of which we heard was Microsoft will not touch the title, unless we did a direct sequel to it.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-oddworld-vs-playstation-vita

OK, doing some more research just now, I came across this article.
http://www.nintendo-nation.net/microsoft-policy-rayman-legends-delay/

Now here's the old article.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-24-why-microsoft-wont-publish-psn-firsts

On the other hand, the newest Ninja Gaidan is going to the PS3 and 360 so it could be select games that Microsoft choose.
Edited by Paulo Teixeira - 2/24/13 at 4:38pm
post #156 of 15144
The policy does exist, but it isn't set in stone and it was meant moreso for digital releases than retail games, but it can be used that way if they truly wanted to.
post #157 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

We do know there is some form of used game lockout on the PS4, that probably has something to do with it. (The Wii U has no such lockout)
We do? I haven't heard that they are definitely locking out used games.
post #158 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by americangunner View Post

We do? I haven't heard that they are definitely locking out used games.

The way that Sony has carefully worded their comments left room for some type of lockout. Used games will work, but they may be locked in various ways. As they said, the extent is left up to publishers.
post #159 of 15144
You just made it sound like it was already a given. Maybe you shouldn't read in to things.
post #160 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by americangunner View Post

You just made it sound like it was already a given. Maybe you shouldn't read in to things.

Sony said it is up to publishers, there is obviously a universal system in place to make it easier to impliment and manage. The extent of what the lockouts will be is to be decided on a game by game basis.
post #161 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The way that Sony has carefully worded their comments left room for some type of lockout. Used games will work, but they may be locked in various ways. As they said, the extent is left up to publishers.

So no change? That functionality is already in the PS3, and even used with MP of some games.
post #162 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The lack of Wii U support is odd, I feel that something happened behind the scenes to cause the lack of support. The Rayman fiasco really supports that as well. We do know there is some form of used game lockout on the PS4, that probably has something to do with it. (The Wii U has no such lockout)
It's really very simple. Wii U sales are bad and getting worse. Projects that were underway have been scrapped or changed or delayed, and publishers are pulling support in general. There's no behind-the-scenes conspiracy at work. The console side of the industry has grown too risk averse to gamble on a new platform that isn't delivering in the marketplace. That's not a judgment of the quality of the console or its current games, but simply a statement of the state of the industry.
Quote:
The way that Sony has carefully worded their comments left room for some type of lockout. Used games will work, but they may be locked in various ways. As they said, the extent is left up to publishers.
I've seen nothing other than unsubstantiated or unreliable rumors. The only hard evidence I've seen is a two-year-old patent that recently went public (which is what happens to patents). Tech companies devote huge amounts of time to filing patents that they never intend to produce or implement (because patents generate huge amounts of money through lawsuits and settlements).

Sony has said very clearly and publicly that they won't do anything to lock out used games. They'd be in serious trouble with investors and with gamers if they reneged on that assurance.
post #163 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

So no change? That functionality is already in the PS3, and even used with MP of some games.

It sounds like they standardized it and gave publishers more freedom on what they could lock. Nothing new, but an evolution of the current system in place, we just don't know how extensive the new system will be.

So long as it is limited to multiplayer, I won't mind it one bit.
post #164 of 15144
Wii U projects started having issues before launch, well before any sales data came in. When the decision to delay Rayman was considered the Wii U was enjoying one of the best launches in history with 1.9 million units sold in just 43 days. The January slump of 250k worldwide doesn't explain the support that dissapeared months ago.
post #165 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Wii U projects started having issues before launch, well before any sales data came in. When the decision to delay Rayman was considered the Wii U was enjoying one of the best launches in history with 1.9 million units sold in just 43 days. The January slump of 250k worldwide doesn't explain the support that dissapeared months ago.

It's probably that games not being made by Nintendo have no hope on the platform.
post #166 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Wii U projects started having issues before launch, well before any sales data came in.
Exactly. And it was always sales related. Market research was not looking good close to launch (poor recognition among consumers, poor purchasing intent, etc). That began accelerating through the holidays when sales weren't as strong as Nintendo had projected. Then, by the time DICE hit early this month, being part of a scrapped Wii U project was a running joke among developers. It's always been about poor sales. There's no secret behind-the-scenes reason for publishers pulling support. And it's definitely not anything to do with some rumored PS4/720 used game lockout.

Nintendo can easily turn their ship around, but as always, it will depend entirely on releasing strong first-party titles.
Edited by confidenceman - 2/24/13 at 8:11pm
post #167 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

It sounds like they standardized it and gave publishers more freedom on what they could lock. Nothing new, but an evolution of the current system in place, we just don't know how extensive the new system will be.

So long as it is limited to multiplayer, I won't mind it one bit.
I still think you're reading to much into what Sony said. I don't think they've changed or standardized anything. Right now, if they want to, publishers could require a one time use code to unlock the entire game but they don't because they know there sales would decline. The console that tries to limit the use of used games or rentals is the console I refuse to buy. If they both decide to walk that path then I guess I'll hold onto my 360 and when it's support dries up, I'll be done with gaming.

I can resale anything in my house and the original manufacturer/publiser doesn't get a dime. This includes my movie and cd collections, which are industries that also have plenty of stores that legally buy and sale used merchandise. Why do game designers think they should be treated differently and that they deserve a cut of every resale or rental? That's rhetoric, I know the answer... It's called greed.
post #168 of 15144
http://www.bradfordtaylor.com/insert-blank-press-start/ps4-vs-the-great-discord/ a good read on how you can't compare the PS4 specs to a high end gaming pC.

There is not an 8 core APU for purchase. Most people are just running a quad core setup. Not to mention the PS4 has a second chip for background processes that helps take even more load off the APU. There is no memory available to purchase that provides the same speed as the PS4. Sure you might have 16 GB of DDR3 for your system and 3 GB of GDDR5 for your video, but it’s not the same as the PS4′s unified 8 GB of GDDR5 clocked at 176 GB/s for system and video. Comparatively non-overclocked DDR3-1333 for PC’s transfer data at 10.7 GB/s. Also, unless you’ve built a completely new computer in the last 6 months, you’re probably not running a complete PCI Express 3.0 Setup. Meaning your MOBO, CPU, and GPU all have to be equipped with it. This means your bus speeds could be aiding in the bottlenecking of your system. Even still PCI 3.0 can’t compete with the bus speeds within an APU. I’m not saying that the PS4 is the end all be all machine, but it might be better equipped than it is given credit for. They also have a clear advantage of being able to write to the metal. There is no cumbersome OS or layers that a typical system has to work through. P
post #169 of 15144
Thread Starter 
Great article. Add to that the fact that Sony ensured that the CPU and GPU were customized in unknown ways for their specific needs and you have a highly capable machine that should easily stand strong for the next seven or so years of the next generation.
post #170 of 15144
Not to mention that PCs have barely scratched the surface when it comes to integrating GPGPU with CPU code. It's a complete sea change like multithreading and programmable shaders were last generation. It's going to take a few years before these consoles really come into their own.
post #171 of 15144
PC World doesn't see it the same way. You'd think a PC mag would understand architecture and such better, but it seems like as time goes by I see more and more of these uninformed tech writers.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2029138/playstation-4-vs-pc-graphics-can-sony-even-compete-.html
post #172 of 15144
Ive always been unhappy with the state of CES rags which seem only capible of funneling good PR to consumers so their "journalists" can get free toys and trips. Hell, its why places like AVS exist, a place to get the truth from user experience.

Its only been getting worse and more and more gaming rags have unbashfully followed suit. They're not really there to inform their subscribers anymore, and are more there to funnel marketing and PR to advertisers. IE the product isnt their knowledge and opinion for their audience, the product IS their audience.


Hell. Even real news sites like politico, the atlantic, and buzzfeed have started adopting these models in even more brazen ways.
post #173 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoTJ View Post

PC World doesn't see it the same way. You'd think a PC mag would understand architecture and such better, but it seems like as time goes by I see more and more of these uninformed tech writers.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2029138/playstation-4-vs-pc-graphics-can-sony-even-compete-.html
People must understand how badly PC games are optimized considering the power high end rigs have to offer, the PS3 RSX GPU is basically a 7000 series Nvidia card, do you think that using such hardware in PC today will allow you to get the same graphic level and performance as to what's offered in some PS3 exclusives like the uncharted series? Hell no.

That's the way it is, consoles are Made for games and designed to be pushed to their limits, gaming PC rigs aren't the same and probably will never be because of how different PC hardware can be from one gaming rig to another, unlike consoles, PC game developers don't have just one set of hardware to focus on.

Also, it's funny how he conveniently didn't talk about the GDDR5 RAM that the mainstream PC gamers don't have access to today and can only dream of. As for the CPU, has there even been any official benchmarks about how they perform? If not, then I don't see why people keep on assuming how a custom made chip will turn out, for all we know it can have better clock for clock performance than what AMD has to offer today. Plus it's 8 cores, PC games aren't optimized to make full use of that many cores even if they aren't clocked very fast, you bet your ass consoles will be a different case and will suck every ounce of power each core will provide.
Edited by metallicaband - 2/25/13 at 8:45am
post #174 of 15144
I said this in the other PS4 thread, but there are drawbacks to the PS4's architecture. Even if it does resemble PC hardware in many ways, its differences will mean that it will take time for developers to figure out how to utilize all of that headroom. They'll also have to figure out how best to code for an 8-core APU. And even on high-end PC games, typical RAM bandwidth is well below what the PS4 has. Though, clearly, no one's going to complain about having too much RAM. cool.gif

In any event, because of its resemblance to a PC, it shouldn't take long for devs to come up to speed, but even then, there will be inherent real-world limitations (multiplatform development, budget and time constraints, etc.). The good news, though, is that developers shouldn't hit many substantial resource bottlenecks on the PS4. Anything they want to do, they should be able to do--given enough time and money.
post #175 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikazaru View Post

The problem is that 3rd party developers aren't even supporting the Wii U NOW.

As said by one honest person "Wii U has a horrible slow CPU". smile.gif
post #176 of 15144
Quote:
Originally Posted by durack View Post

As said by one honest person "Wii U has a horrible slow CPU". smile.gif

As said by a dev who only spent a few minutes with an incomplete dev kit. Also, the dev flat out sucks at optimizing their games.

Many other devs have commented that the CPU is in no way a bottleneck.


Like I said, NFS Most Wanted will be the first game that even begins to show what the Wii U can do.
post #177 of 15144
They need to merge the 2 threads.
post #178 of 15144
Thread Starter 
Well, the show was a specific event so that's why it had its own thread for us to speculate and share rumors before the unveiling. I served a purpose and will eventually it will slip away.

This thread is the only place that I post up links to PS4 news and articles, so a lot of talk about the console will migrate here.
post #179 of 15144
http://www.gamrreview.com/news/89809/sony-revises-list-of-third-party-ps4-developers-down-considerably/

During Sony's PlayStation 4 announcement conference they briefly advertised an image that demonstrated the sheer number of third parties purportedly working on PlayStation 4 games. Afterwards, they followed this up by publishing a complete list, which we reported on here. That list contained almost 150 names, 53 of which are developers based in Europe.



But today Sony revised the number of European PlayStation 4 developers down quite considerably, from the aforementioned 53 to 28. It seems that Sony got a bit ahead of themselves. VG24/7 are reporting, for example, that Mojang's inclusion was an 'error on Sony's side', and according to them the same applies to a number of other developers. Likewise Gamasutra even reported that 17-bit, despite being included on the list "does not have a PS4 dev kit as of yet, although that's not for lack of trying".

It begs the question of how many Japanese and American developers are also on the list that shouldn't be, and why Sony felt the need to beef up the list when it would very quickly be disputed by the developers themselves.

Anyway, here's the updated list:

Avalanche Studios
Blitz Games Studios
Bohemia Interactive
CD Projekt RED
Climax Studios
Hello Games
Just Add Water (Developments), Ltd.
Deep Silver
Lucid Games Ltd
MercurySteam
Ninja Theory Ltd
Nixxes Software BV
Paradox Interactive
Rebellion
Saber Interactive
Creative Assembly
IO Interactive
Starbreeze Studios
2K Games
Team 17 Digital LTD
Yager
Zen Studios
keen games
Splash Damage
Stainless Games Ltd
Sumo Digital
Codemasters
TT Games

Joystiq posted this update.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/02/25/sony-completely-revises-list-of-ps4-eu-studios-down-from-53-to/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+weblogsinc%2Fjoystiq+(Joystiq

Update: A spokesperson for 505 Games tells us the Italian company is "definitely" planning to publish games on the PS4. 505 Games was in the original list of European/PAL PS4 developers and publishers, but not the revised list. The spokesperson noted the company's logo appears in the image showcasing PS4 partners, as shown during last week's event, as do many of the names in the revised list.
Edited by PENDRAG0ON - 2/25/13 at 1:18pm
post #180 of 15144
So is this another case of Sony blowing smoke? They've been known to make promises and statements that never come true, and this is just a weird story.
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