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PlayStation 4 - Page 122

post #3631 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

There's a little bit of gray area here, because while it's against TOS to give out your ID and password, it isn't against TOS to sign in on another PS3, download a game, and use it on all accounts on that PS3. The account owner can always disable that second console too at any time.

I do agree digital should be cheaper, but I don't agree that retail is the reason. The walled garden and publishers are the real reason. I wouldn't be surprised to see them try to increase prices if retail was cut out.

Then the developers that put out cheaper games will eat their lunch. The relative lack of retail on PC hasn't kept steam prices artificially inflated, if anything the ease of changing prices and being able to rapidly respond to demand and undercut the competition drives down prices even quicker.

If there's one thing that the Xbox 180 debacle has proven, it's that consumers will refuse to be victims. Let them try to just arbitrarily increase prices, they'll see what happens.
post #3632 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Then the developers that put out cheaper games will eat their lunch. The relative lack of retail on PC hasn't kept steam prices artificially inflated, if anything the ease of changing prices and being able to rapidly respond to demand and undercut the competition drives down prices even quicker.

If there's one thing that the Xbox 180 debacle has proven, it's that consumers will refuse to be victims. Let them try to just arbitrarily increase prices, they'll see what happens.

Maybe. A no money down preorder on amazon is a easy protest, but when push comes to shove, how many would have kept their protest purchase? There already appeared to be a few wild swings on both on the site, witht he DRM ONe selling out, then a huge switch to PS4 (day one One went back into order), then a smaller push back when DRM was dropped.

Take a look at BF3 on PC too. You can only get it on origin, and origin prices are not very favorable compared to steam and other more open distribution platforms. Closed gardens alone allow for higher pricing, since consumers have no choice. The only thing that threw the cog in MS's plan, was apparently a hilarious miscalculation info that Sony was doing something similar. I'm not sure many were as ready to walk away as you or I were.
post #3633 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Hopefully I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but I agree with the above post. This doesn't sound ethical on any level. One reason games are so expensive now is people either abusing or circumventing the policies. The rest of us that play by the rules (both written and implied) suffer and foot the bill.

Well, first, I've not actually done this yet, so don't start convicting me of any crimes, lol. This is just something that I'm considering as a possibility.


Ok, so, let's think about this rationally.... Let's say me and another guy basically go in on Killzone Shadow Fall, and we share the game (using the process I described above). Each of us are paying $30, plus whatever tax we might have to pay. Now, remember, that we can NEVER sell that game to somebody else. So, while we are only paying $30, we can never get anything back for that $30 that we spent. It's basically gone forever. The game will be shared by two different owners, but will never be resold to a 3rd owner, or a 4th owner, or a 5th owner, or a 6th owner.

If I buy a retail version of Killzone Shadow Fall for $59.99 which is about $65 after tax, then I'm paying $65, which is obviously quite a bit more than $30, but I still have a physical asset that can be sold for money. So, I could play Killzone SF for a couple of months, and then sell it for say $40 on Craigslist. Killzone effectively is only costing me $25. Of course, the flip side is, I only had ownership of the game for two months, so I probably felt pressure to try to play the game as often as possible to get my $25 worth. By buying it digitally, I'm paying $5 more, but getting to play it for a much longer time, but then again, my money is stuck and I'm never getting anything back.

Also, this physical version that I'm reselling, will likely end up having many more owners, before it's lifespan ends.

So, it's one of those things where either way you slice it, there are positives and negatives for both the consumer and the corporation.

Of course, if I go with the whole "ethical" way, then buying digital makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever, and that's why I pretty much never buy things digitally, unless the price is so low that it practically becomes a rental. (for example, $5 AAA games via Steam sales)
post #3634 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

What is internet access like in China? Does everyone have access to broadband?

In the cities that consoles are most likely to sell, places like Shanghai or Bejing. Yes definitely, and it's fast for local content at least.

It's a huge growth opportunity in China and India. I hope they expand out SCEJ, to make it encompass the whole of asia. Teams in China, Taiwan, Korea and India would be justified, even if just to create indie titles
post #3635 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Maybe. A no money down preorder on amazon is a easy protest, but when push comes to shove, how many would have kept their protest purchase? There already appeared to be a few wild swings on both on the site, witht he DRM ONe selling out, then a huge switch to PS4 (day one One went back into order), then a smaller push back when DRM was dropped.

Take a look at BF3 on PC too. You can only get it on origin, and origin prices are not very favorable compared to steam and other more open distribution platforms. Closed gardens alone allow for higher pricing, since consumers have no choice. The only thing that threw the cog in MS's plan, was apparently a hilarious miscalculation info that Sony was doing something similar. I'm not sure many were as ready to walk away as you or I were.

Consumers have a choice....the choice just not to buy stuff that's more expensive, in world where there's thousands of other cheaper and even free games. It takes time for this stuff to play out. EA tried keeping prices high on origin for a while, but they're coming down hard. Bought BF3 for $5 the other day, hot pursuit for $5, etc. Sims 3 is $5 right now too. Its not working out how they planned. If one platform has the same games for twice the price, people move to other platforms over time. Sony's sales are quickly approaching steam levels, 75% cuts aren't unheard of anymore. MS just had a sale with the deepest discounts I've ever seen for them. It's happening.
post #3636 of 15179
Personally I think there needs to be something like Microsoft's family sharing plan. If I had gaming kids this would be a lot more expensive for me. I'd like to see Apple and Android step up one day let me give away apps. Sure their inexpensive but if I move off that platform I'm screwed out of my investment. On the flipside, my digital copies are there for the life of my platform.

I think Microsoft should have stuck to their guns. If nothing more than to force other platforms to adopt. DRM isn't the all encompassing evil people make it out. The negativity comes from companies exploiting it but the other side is rampant piracy. DRM gives us Netflix and Steam which do a pretty good job of handling things. Zune music was horribly handled when servers shut down and locked people out of their music if memory serves and gave people a bad taste over it.

Now I've acquired my own unsavory copies of things so I'm straddling the fence a bit but I also don't feel entitled to do so because something costs too much. What does need to be there is a mechanism to compromise for both sides. If I was able to buy, sell and trade digitally just like I can physically I'd be all over it. That should be transparent to me though.
post #3637 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordxar5 View Post

Personally I think there needs to be something like Microsoft's family sharing plan. If I had gaming kids this would be a lot more expensive for me. I'd like to see Apple and Android step up one day let me give away apps. Sure their inexpensive but if I move off that platform I'm screwed out of my investment. On the flipside, my digital copies are there for the life of my platform.

I think Microsoft should have stuck to their guns. If nothing more than to force other platforms to adopt. DRM isn't the all encompassing evil people make it out. The negativity comes from companies exploiting it but the other side is rampant piracy. DRM gives us Netflix and Steam which do a pretty good job of handling things. Zune music was horribly handled when servers shut down and locked people out of their music if memory serves and gave people a bad taste over it.

Now I've acquired my own unsavory copies of things so I'm straddling the fence a bit but I also don't feel entitled to do so because something costs too much. What does need to be there is a mechanism to compromise for both sides. If I was able to buy, sell and trade digitally just like I can physically I'd be all over it. That should be transparent to me though.


Zune music being the subscription service? None of those subscription models let you keep the music. You are just renting the music. The Xbone model would have been the same. Whenever they decided to shut down the servers, you would no longer have those games. There's still nothing holding them back from keeping the same model on just their digital games.
post #3638 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordxar5 View Post

Personally I think there needs to be something like Microsoft's family sharing plan. If I had gaming kids this would be a lot more expensive for me. I'd like to see Apple and Android step up one day let me give away apps. Sure their inexpensive but if I move off that platform I'm screwed out of my investment. On the flipside, my digital copies are there for the life of my platform.

I think Microsoft should have stuck to their guns. If nothing more than to force other platforms to adopt. DRM isn't the all encompassing evil people make it out. The negativity comes from companies exploiting it but the other side is rampant piracy. DRM gives us Netflix and Steam which do a pretty good job of handling things. Zune music was horribly handled when servers shut down and locked people out of their music if memory serves and gave people a bad taste over it.

Now I've acquired my own unsavory copies of things so I'm straddling the fence a bit but I also don't feel entitled to do so because something costs too much. What does need to be there is a mechanism to compromise for both sides. If I was able to buy, sell and trade digitally just like I can physically I'd be all over it. That should be transparent to me though.


Zune music being the subscription service? None of those subscription models let you keep the music. You are just renting the music. The Xbone model would have been the same. Whenever they decided to shut down the servers, you would no longer have those games. There's still nothing holding them back from keeping the same model on just their digital games.

Nah, not the sub part. I thought I read where people purchased tunes and lost them when the servers went away. That was a few years back though. I know some music service had a stink about purchases lost when the servers were turned off.
post #3639 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordxar5 View Post

Nah, not the sub part. I thought I read where people purchased tunes and lost them when the servers went away. That was a few years back though. I know some music service had a stink about purchases lost when the servers were turned off.

I think it was MSN music? Although I thought they issued people refunds.
post #3640 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordxar5 View Post

Nah, not the sub part. I thought I read where people purchased tunes and lost them when the servers went away. That was a few years back though. I know some music service had a stink about purchases lost when the servers were turned off.

I think it was MSN music? Although I thought they issued people refunds.

Your probably right. Was something Microsoft did I remember that much.
post #3641 of 15179
post #3642 of 15179
Getting off track, again.
post #3643 of 15179
I pre-ordered mine but was not happy that they didn't have bundles at best buy for it with the accessories. It may be coming later but I didn't want to risk losing rights to the first batch. It's going to be a strong showing on launch day for sure. Not sure how the X-Box One sales are doing after their announcement to basically make changes to match the PS4. I know the PS4 was all the talk at E3!
post #3644 of 15179
Gaikai On PS4 Will Support “The Best” PS3 Games

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2013/07/12/gaikai-on-ps4-will-support-the-best-ps3-games/

"On course"
post #3645 of 15179
post #3646 of 15179
Shuhei Yoshida Confirms the PS4 PlayStation Store Will “Absolutely” Run Better

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2013/07/12/shuhei-yoshida-confirms-the-ps4-playstation-store-will-absolutely-run-better/
post #3647 of 15179
Nice, the PS Store is way too slow. The old setup was much faster.

Would love for the Gaiki service eventually contain all PS1,PS2 and PS3 games and then other games as well.
post #3648 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

Nice, the PS Store is way too slow. The old setup was much faster.

Would love for the Gaiki service eventually contain all PS1,PS2 and PS3 games and then other games as well.

That is absolutely what it needs to be.

If Sony wants Gaikai to garner critical acclaim and to sell systems, it needs to come out of the gate with a couple of thousand games ready to go including classic popular games from 3rd parties.
post #3649 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post

That is absolutely what it needs to be.

If Sony wants Gaikai to garner critical acclaim and to sell systems, it needs to come out of the gate with a couple of thousand games ready to go including classic popular games from 3rd parties.

I don't think they need thousands of games, but I can imagine a hundred or so games with at least half rotating in and out every month, free to play for PS+ users, and available to keep forever for a few bucks. A thousand games is a mess, then you just get something awful like Netflix where the majority is garbage. They should curate it to contain only stuff worth playing, and get the community involved in picking what's next.
post #3650 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I don't think they need thousands of games, but I can imagine a hundred or so games with at least half rotating in and out every month, free to play for PS+ users, and available to keep forever for a few bucks. A thousand games is a mess, then you just get something awful like Netflix where the majority is garbage. They should curate it to contain only stuff worth playing, and get the community involved in picking what's next.

Nope. 100-200 games is not enough to impress most gamers. If anything, it will disappoint a lot of gamers who's favorite games or genres are not at all or underrepresented. For it to impress people, they need at least 500 games from the PS1 era, 500 games from the PS2 era and as many PS3 games as they can manage. (500 would be nice). imagine how happy gamers would be if it took them a couple of days to navigate through all the games available. While some people might find that annoying, if most gamers could find a few of their favorite classic tittles and several tittles they always wanted to play, but never got around to playing, I'd imagine it would become incredibly popular, very, very quickly.

Just so you know what Gaikai has to work with:

# of PS1 games: 2,418

# of PS2 games: 3,870

# of PS3 games: around 772 + (since more games are releasing)

Total number of potential games for Gaikai: 7060 and climbing.

So to start with between 1000 and 2000 titles is just getting started!

And that's not counting companies who may want to release games on Gaikai that had never been released for a playstation console before. That is also a posibility, considering that this happens on PSN all the time.
Edited by NuSoardGraphite - 7/12/13 at 3:26pm
post #3651 of 15179
I don't see any reason why games should be rotated in and out of the service. Barring the loss of rights, the status of a publisher changing, and such I see no reason why any game should ever disappear from it until the service itself closes.

It's not like any resources are conserved by doing it. They're not going to have a thousand servers wastefully tied up by Gran Turismo (A game that I bet never appears due to all the licenses and being a type of game where the vast majority gravitate towards the newest release) unless a thousand people are actually playing it at that moment. So why limit it when there's no need to? People can handle looking through a large selection of games. Particularly if their interface is well designed, speedy, there are effective search options, and so on.

I hope that PSP and Vita games make an appearance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

Would love for the Gaiki service eventually contain all PS1,PS2 and PS3 games and then other games as well.
That is absolutely what it needs to be.

If Sony wants Gaikai to garner critical acclaim and to sell systems, it needs to come out of the gate with a couple of thousand games ready to go including classic popular games from 3rd parties.

Too bad that 100% coverage is an impossibility. Due to nearly 20 years of history and thousands of companies being involved with the life of the Playstation line, there are surely some stuff here that simply aren't releasable. Publishers that don't exist any longer is a good starting point. Surely a small percentage of this stuff doesn't have an obvious corporate trail leading until today. And then there are things like licensing cost issues, licenses that simply are unavailable like today's era of exclusive sports franchise licenses, controller issues with games that utilized something beyond just a standard gamepad, etc.

I'm really curious how the lineup will pan out. Their Playstation and now Playstation 2 PSN digital release program has been disappointing in terms of release pace and selection of games. A very small percentage of the library for both are represented today despite many years being under the belt for the Playstation program and the downloads being compatible on three different platforms. And many of the big hitters are absent. Sony really didn't do a good job taking advantage of this area.

And even with a contemporary system, the PSP, they did a poor job of seeing to it that the library was well represented digitally. Despite a digital only PSP model being available, a far too large percentage of the library was never made available and some big games didn't see a digital release even when released after the Go appeared.

I hope they have many hundreds of games at launch and add many each month, but I'm not holding my breath. I imagine that things like ESRB review fees and such will ensure that the selection and pace of additional releases will be much more modest to ensure that each is given a lot of attention by PS4 owners. Heck, some things would struggle just to recover their ESRB review fee.

I'm really curious what the business model will be like here. Will we be paying for individual licenses like I assume or will there be digital rental options at a lower cost or perhaps even a blanket subscription fee open up access to everything? If we're paying things like $5 or more for streaming access to a game, I hope that there will at least be timed demos available for free.

And I wonder how trophies enter the equation here. They patented a system for analyzing the state a game was in a while back to watch for the occurrence of information that has been pre-selected to trigger a specific trophy a while back which indicates a possibility for trophy support on this front. Will all these have trophy support? If so, that's going to be a lot of work compared to something like a Nintendo Virtual Console release and keep things to a pace far slower than I suspect many of us would want.

It's going to take a lot of time to adapt trophies to games that weren't developed with them in mind. Particularly if source code is unavailable or there simply isn't a lot of viable options to utilize as trophy triggers. And even if there is, there's going to have to be a good bit of testing to ensure that selected trigger information doesn't occur somewhere else that could incorrectly trigger a trophy that should still be locked.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 7/12/13 at 4:16pm
post #3652 of 15179
I think the rotating in and out was meant as Freebies for PS+ members as that is currently how it works. Some games are free for a while, then taken off. If you've downloaded them you still get to use them as long as your membership doesn't lapse.
post #3653 of 15179
That makes sense then and I agree. I don't see why someone should be granted access to five years of freebies, for instance, if they don't subscribe until the start of the 6th year of Playstation Plus on the Playstation 4.

I could see something like access to the past 6 months of freebies being a nice incentive to a newcomer though. It's not like subscribers are missing out by subscribing early since they enjoyed online multiplayer access during that time, access to now expired deals on PSN downloads, etc. So there's incentive to subscribe even with the knowledge that you could wait a few months and still get access to whatever freebies happened during that time.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 7/12/13 at 4:15pm
post #3654 of 15179
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

There's a little bit of gray area here, because while it's against TOS to give out your ID and password, it isn't against TOS to sign in on another PS3, download a game, and use it on all accounts on that PS3. The account owner can always disable that second console too at any time.

I do agree digital should be cheaper, but I don't agree that retail is the reason. The walled garden and publishers are the real reason. I wouldn't be surprised to see them try to increase prices if retail was cut out.
#1 rule in business: Maximize profits.
post #3655 of 15179
Thousands to start is just unrealistic. They're not going to be able to test them that fast. I wouldn't expect to see them come online any faster than the PS1 classics came online to the PS3.

It any of them are going to be free, I'll be surprised if its all of them at once.
post #3656 of 15179
Yeah, 100% coverage is pretty much impossible, this is understood. and the licensing for many 3rd party games will be a pain to negotiate I'm sure. but at the very least, what is found on PSN currently should all be day 1 on GAIKAI.
post #3657 of 15179
What's on PSN on day 1 seems like a reasonably optimistic hope for the best case scenario to me as long as they aren't adding trophies or aiming for 100% trophy support across the board if they are (Although I can't imagine them being free). If trophy support is included as standard though, I'd be very impressed if they were able to adapt what appears to be well over 100 PS1 games (I didn't count) with trophy support for launch not to mention the several dozen PS2 releases that PSN has and is regularly receiving more of.

I imagine even if the best case possibility was to happen. it won't be quite 100% of what's already available on PSN since they're dealing with a decent number of publishers so agreements might take some time with all of them to extend them to the PS4 and streaming. And some, for whatever reason, perhaps might not support making their content available here despite it already being available on PSN for other platforms. That is if their current contract with Sony doesn't already give Sony permission to roll these games out onto another Sony controlled platform at their discretion.

And if they really worked their best to get what we eventually saw on PSN before PS1 releases dried up a year ago or so, despite many hundreds of games that were never rereleased including dozens of popular and lesser known classics, they very well might want to keep some of them in reserve to spice up what's going to be pretty slim pickings for future additions and instead roll them out slowly yet again like Nintendo is doing with their Wii U Virtual Console.

But it better eventually go well beyond the present day PSN selection if they want me to pay attention. And it would be nice if anything new that does arrive would also be added to the collection of downloads available to PSP/Vita/PS3 buyers. I don't see any reason why an emulated Playstation game shouldn't be made available on every platform that could play it.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 7/12/13 at 6:55pm
post #3658 of 15179
I feel like that GTA V gameplay trailer rendered the PS4 and X1 obsolete. I just really have no interest in the next gen after watching that. None of the next gen games look anywhere near as awesome as that game. I can't be alone on this.
post #3659 of 15179
Quantic Dream: "Dark Sorcerer only uses half of the power PS4 offers".

Plus confirmation that it's Only a tech demo and not part of a future game.

That's literally unbelievable to me (if true of course), the potential we could see in 3-4 years is AMAZING !!!!
post #3660 of 15179
Considering their past tech demos were massively outdone by current games, I believe them.

E3 2006 Heavy Rain "The Casting"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-itJpMX6qc
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