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PlayStation 4 - Page 129

post #3841 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcweber111 View Post

Hence another reason to go all digital this next generation.

All games require installs on both PS4 and Xbox One thanks to how slow the bluray drive is. There really isn't an advantage to going full digital for game performance.
post #3842 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

All games require installs on both PS4 and Xbox One thanks to how slow the bluray drive is. There really isn't an advantage to going full digital for game performance.

I don't believe Sony has said outright that all games *need* to be 100% installed. Quite a few things might still come off the BD. There's a lot of scenarios where pulling off both the HDD and the BD at the same time would actually increase performance.
post #3843 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

All games require installs on both PS4 and Xbox One thanks to how slow the bluray drive is. There really isn't an advantage to going full digital for game performance.

No disc required to play the game should you be all digital. I hate getting up to change discs and with the One at least I like the idea of instant switching. I love having my digital game collection available to me on the PS3 and 360.
post #3844 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I don't believe Sony has said outright that all games *need* to be 100% installed. Quite a few things might still come off the BD. There's a lot of scenarios where pulling off both the HDD and the BD at the same time would actually increase performance.

Cerny said that bluray was too slow for games, CG cutscenes and cutscene audio may not be installed, but I would bet anything gameplay related will be installed.
post #3845 of 15142
http://www.gamepur.com/news/11504-ps4s-memory-subsystem-has-separate-buses-cpu-20gbs-and-gpu176gbs-report.html

Here is an interesting article.. the PS4 memory may not be as "Unified" as first thought


Quote:
PS4's Memory Subsystem has separate buses for CPU (20GB/S) and GPU(176GB/S)
post #3846 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Cerny said that bluray was too slow for games, CG cutscenes and cutscene audio may not be installed, but I would bet anything gameplay related will be installed.

Sure, those are the easy parts to leave off. But beyond that, when you've got 8GB to fill, you don't leave a potential 30MB/sec just sitting on the table. The BD by itself is too slow, but a 5400rpm 2.5" HDD is barely adequate as well. If they've got the BD in the drive, they should use it.
post #3847 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcweber111 View Post

Hence another reason to go all digital this next generation.

Or just use fully installed games....
post #3848 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

Or just use fully installed games....

Read my previous response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcweber111 View Post

No disc required to play the game should you be all digital. I hate getting up to change discs and with the One at least I like the idea of instant switching. I love having my digital game collection available to me on the PS3 and 360.
post #3849 of 15142
You guys ever seen this?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv5uI2vlXE8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I thought it was pretty neat.
post #3850 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by samendolaro View Post

http://www.gamepur.com/news/11504-ps4s-memory-subsystem-has-separate-buses-cpu-20gbs-and-gpu176gbs-report.html

Here is an interesting article.. the PS4 memory may not be as "Unified" as first thought

I am currently reading up on it, Neogaf has already discussed it quite a bit here. (With lots of links to relevant info, including Cerny interviews)

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=628386
post #3851 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I am currently reading up on it, Neogaf has already discussed it quite a bit here. (With lots of links to relevant info, including Cerny interviews)

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=628386

Can't stay in GAF long...smile.gif
post #3852 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

Can't stay in GAF long...smile.gif

I was going to sum it up with a quick edit, but the first page of the topic covered everything, so I left it as is.
post #3853 of 15142
For what it's worth, the X1 appears to function basically the same way:

post #3854 of 15142
And if you're wondering what kind of bandwidth desktop CPUs are pushing, and the effect CPU memory bandwidth and latency has on performance in gaming:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4503/sandy-bridge-memory-scaling-choosing-the-best-ddr3/6

So yeah, basically much ado about nothing.
post #3855 of 15142
PS3 headsets on PS4, confirmed working.

Not surprising though since the PS3 supported any standard bluetooth protocol headset.
Still nice to get confirmation to quell any of the FUD


http://www.polygon.com/2013/7/18/4534374/ps4-will-support-ps3-wireless-headsets
post #3856 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

For what it's worth, the X1 appears to function basically the same way:


The PS4 has the major advantage of the GPU CPU and RAM all being able to talk to each other without needing the other.

The GPU has a direct line to the RAM, nothing gets in the way to slow it down, that is actually a pretty substantial advantage for devs. The CPU and GPU can also directly swap data without having to send it back to the RAM. It is very streamlined for one simple reason, to make devs jobs easier. Smaller teams and less time needed to port multiplats from PC to PS4.
post #3857 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The PS4 has the major advantage of the GPU CPU and RAM all being able to talk to each other without needing the other.

The GPU has a direct line to the RAM, nothing gets in the way to slow it down, that is actually a pretty substantial advantage for devs. The CPU and GPU can also directly swap data without having to send it back to the RAM. It is very streamlined for one simple reason, to make devs jobs easier. Smaller teams and less time needed to port multiplats from PC to PS4.

Look closer at the diagram....X1 is the same way.
post #3858 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Look closer at the diagram....X1 is the same way.

I did, the Xbox One has additional steps and controllers that the PS4 doesn't have based on the Cerny interviews.
post #3859 of 15142
Wow I was unaware that Cerny was also the lead architect for the Vita.
post #3860 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Report back Sir!

Also, look it over and see if you can find the HDD bay, and also see if you can get someone to tell us what type of HDD connection it supports.

Here is my SD Comic Con report:

-Asked several Sony employees and their PR rep at their both today and none of them had info on where the hard drive bay was located on the PS4 and what type of hard drive connection the PS4 uses.Some of them didn't even know that the internal hard drive could be upgraded.
-Played Drive Club and just as I expected it's not a racing simulator game and is more of NFS or Burnout paradise type racing game.I'll download the free PS+ edition but honestly can't see myself playing it that much.
-Knack is a nice game but didn't knock my socks off graphically for a next gen PS4 game.I'll pick it up if it drops to the $19-$25 range around black Friday or will wait for it to become a free PS+ download able game.
-Have no interest and did not bother lining up to play OctoDad.
-Really liked how the Dual Shock 4 felt in hands while playing.
-PS4 prototype consoles at the both were behind closed glass cases so I could not touch and get up close & personal with the PS4.

Watched an exclusive SDCC 15 minute Watchdogs video that showed new footage of free roam and multi player.Really was impressed with what I saw and can't wait to play this game.The Ubisoft reps were strict and nobody in the viewing room of about 25 people could not even pull out their iphone or smartphone to even check the time. The had a promo going with amazon.com for some cool shirts for Watchdogs & Assassins Creed for pre ordering both Watch Dogs & Assaisns Creed 4 you got 1 shirt for each game.I already have Watchdogs pre ordered at my loal Gamestop so I will be canceling my amazon pre order. Assasins Creed I've never been a fan of the series.

Both the Playstation & Xboxone booth's where literally behind each other.Trust me when I say the Playstation booth areas had the most interest and longest wait time lines for Knack, Drive Club, Gran Turismo 6, Beyond: 2 souls.I even chatted with a Xboxone rep and she was obviously annoyed and not to happy about people asking her about Xboxone's DRM and 24 hour check in policies since most people at the convention were confused or didn't know about Microsoft reversal about their policies after E3.

Can't wait to attend SD Comic Con again tomorrow & Sunday biggrin.gif
Edited by Filipinoyakuza - 7/19/13 at 6:52pm
post #3861 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I did, the Xbox One has additional steps and controllers that the PS4 doesn't have based on the Cerny interviews.

What extra steps? The CPUs are directly connected to the DDR through its memory controller (the north bridge), and the GPU is connected directly through its memory controller to both the DDR and the ESRAM. Both memory controllers also have a direct connection to each other (seems to be a link between the CPU and GPU cache), and ultimately, they're both sharing the same pool of memory.

If it seems more complicated than the PS4, it's probably only because its a more detailed diagram. The only major structural difference seems to be the presence of the ESRAM.
Edited by bd2003 - 7/19/13 at 7:07pm
post #3862 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

What extra steps? The CPUs are directly connected to the DDR through its memory controller (the north bridge), and the GPU is connected directly through its memory controller to both the DDR and the ESRAM. Both memory controllers also have a direct connection to each other.

If it seems more complicated than the PS4, it's probably only because its a more detailed diagram.

Cerny has stated that the GPU and RAM can comunicate directly, and bypass the cache. The GPU and CPU also have a way to directly exchange information. The Xbox One diagram clearly shows they can't directly communicate without going through added controllers and cache reserves that are shared by multiple resources.
post #3863 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Cerny has stated that the GPU and RAM can comunicate directly, and bypass the cache. The GPU and CPU also have a way to directly exchange information. The Xbox One diagram clearly shows they can't directly communicate without going through added controllers and cache reserves that are shared by multiple resources.

Whether or not the X1 GPU can bypass it's own cache can't be determined from this diagram, because it doesn't specifically show them as blocks. It's not safe to assume that it can't, I'd say it's pretty likely that it can, at least to the ESRAM. Beyond that, a memory controller isnt an "added" controller, its a fundamental part of the system....I assure you the PS4 has them too. Clearly the CPU can bypass the GPU cache, and vice versa, but they still have a 30GB/sec link between them....the "coherence" is what ensures that both cache's stay consistent with each other, so they can work on the same thing at the same time. That's the "direct" communication Cerny is talking about. When it comes to the system memory, there's no need to communicate anything, they're working from the same pool.
post #3864 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filipinoyakuza View Post

Here is my SD Comic Con report:

-Asked several Sony employees and their PR rep at their both today and none of them had info on where the hard drive bay was located on the PS4 and what type of hard drive connection the PS4 uses.Some of them didn't even know that the internal hard drive could be upgraded.
-Played Drive Club and just as I expected it's not a racing simulator game and is more of NFS or Burnout paradise type racing game.I'll download the free PS+ edition but honestly can't see myself playing it that much.
-Knack is a nice game but didn't knock my socks off graphically for a next gen PS4 game.I'll pick it up if it drops to the $19-$25 range around black Friday or will wait for it to become a free PS+ download able game.
-Have no interest and did not bother lining up to play OctoDad.
-Really liked how the Dual Shock 4 felt in hands while playing.
-PS4 prototype consoles at the both were behind closed glass cases so I could not touch and get up close & personal with the PS4.

Watched an exclusive SDCC 15 minute Watchdogs video that showed new footage of free roam and multi player.Really was impressed with what I saw and can't wait to play this game.The Ubisoft reps were strict and nobody in the viewing room of about 25 people could not even pull out their iphone or smartphone to even check the time. The had a promo going with amazon.com for some cool shirts for Watchdogs & Assassins Creed for pre ordering both Watch Dogs & Assaisns Creed 4 you got 1 shirt for each game.I already have Watchdogs pre ordered at my loal Gamestop so I will be canceling my amazon pre order. Assasins Creed I've never been a fan of the series.

Both the Playstation & Xboxone booth's where literally behind each other.Trust me when I say the Playstation booth areas had the most interest and longest wait time lines for Knack, Drive Club, Gran Turismo 6, Beyond: 2 souls.I even chatted with a Xboxone rep and she was obviously annoyed and not to happy about people asking her about Xboxone's DRM and 24 hour check in policies since most people at the convention were confused or didn't know about Microsoft reversal about their policies after E3.

Can't wait to attend SD Comic Con again tomorrow & Sunday biggrin.gif

how does the DS4 compare to 360 controller?
post #3865 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

how does the DS4 compare to 360 controller?

Well I've never owned a OG Xbox or Xbox 360 so I really can't answer that question.

I assume you meant to ask how the DS4 and Xbone controller feel & compare.

I'll let you know when I get back from SDCC tomorrow biggrin.gif

Was busy people watching and taking pictures of sexy half naked ladies dressed up in their sexy costumes biggrin.gif .The rest of my time at the convention I was in lines to get toys and just walk the floor exhibits today.
Edited by Filipinoyakuza - 7/19/13 at 7:46pm
post #3866 of 15142
Is this a stealth downgrade?
post #3867 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

Is this a stealth downgrade?

Nope. It's a rehash of info thats been out there since April: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Enabling the Vision: How Sony Modified the Hardware

The three "major modifications" Sony did to the architecture to support this vision are as follows, in Cerny's words:

First, we added another bus to the GPU that allows it to read directly from system memory or write directly to system memory, bypassing its own L1 and L2 caches. As a result, if the data that's being passed back and forth between CPU and GPU is small, you don't have issues with synchronization between them anymore. And by small, I just mean small in next-gen terms. We can pass almost 20 gigabytes a second down that bus. That's not very small in today’s terms -- it’s larger than the PCIe on most PCs!

Next, to support the case where you want to use the GPU L2 cache simultaneously for both graphics processing and asynchronous compute, we have added a bit in the tags of the cache lines, we call it the 'volatile' bit. You can then selectively mark all accesses by compute as 'volatile,' and when it's time for compute to read from system memory, it can invalidate, selectively, the lines it uses in the L2. When it comes time to write back the results, it can write back selectively the lines that it uses. This innovation allows compute to use the GPU L2 cache and perform the required operations without significantly impacting the graphics operations going on at the same time -- in other words, it radically reduces the overhead of running compute and graphics together on the GPU."

Thirdly, said Cerny, "The original AMD GCN architecture allowed for one source of graphics commands, and two sources of compute commands. For PS4, we’ve worked with AMD to increase the limit to 64 sources of compute commands -- the idea is if you have some asynchronous compute you want to perform, you put commands in one of these 64 queues, and then there are multiple levels of arbitration in the hardware to determine what runs, how it runs, and when it runs, alongside the graphics that's in the system.[/quote[

This is the cache bypass that essentially allows the CPU and GPU to talk to each other directly and both use the same address space on the memory. Best analogy is it's the carpool lane off to the side of the normal highway. It's a design to reduce bottlenecks and the need to copy data to and from the cache over clock cycles.

Here's a better picture:


Here's the full DF article: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-the-crew-was-ported-to-playstation-4

Two things leap out to me:
Quote:
With the basic porting complete, the Ubisoft Reflections team is now ramping up its staff in order to complete the PS4 game ready for the Q1 2014 release, but the core engineering effort in moving The Crew across to PlayStation 4 was accomplished in six months with a team of just two to three people working on it. Overall, Reflections felt that the process of porting over the PC codebase was fairly simple and straightforward.
Quote:
"The PS4's GPU is very programmable. There's a lot of power in there that we're just not using yet. So what we want to do are some PS4-specific things for our rendering but within reason - it's a cross-platform game so we can't do too much that's PS4-specific," he reveals.

"There are two things we want to look into: asynchronous compute where we can actually run compute jobs in parallel... We [also] have low-level access to the fragment-processing hardware which allows us to do some quite interesting things with anti-aliasing and a few other effects."

Cerny wasn't ********ting in time to triangle apparently. Porting a DX11.2 engine to the PS4 (PSSL) with 3 people over 6 months is pretty impressive. Second we haven't even launched and developers are licking their lips to play with GPGPU, and seem to be impressed with Sony low level API. Overall they sounded impressed with the maturity of the toolset as is now, and it's only going to get better.
Edited by TyrantII - 7/19/13 at 8:14pm
post #3868 of 15142
Time to Triangle was stated as the time it took to get a game engine up and running on the system at a level that shows the power of the hardware. (So not just able to be booted and play at 1fps) For three people to get the game up and running in six months is pretty impressive. And they didn't even take the easy route, they threw out the "easy" Drivers and coded more or less to the metal,which makes this even more impressive.
post #3869 of 15142
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

Is this a stealth downgrade?

No way, it is the opposite. With the addition of the cache bypass pipelines, asynchronous and simultaneous read and writes that are now capable.

The PS4 is far more capable that we were first lead to believe.
post #3870 of 15142
Quote:
Played Drive Club and just as I expected it's not a racing simulator game and is more of NFS or Burnout paradise type racing game

I figured as much. This is why I'm buying the X1 at launch (for Forza) and waiting a bit for some games that I like to start rolling in for the PS4.
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