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PlayStation 4 - Page 198

post #5911 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

It's an epic win for AMD, they own console gaming, and they're about to own PC gaming. And this has huge implications for SteamOS, because PC games will have the same advantage of being a fixed platform.

It's also a huge middle finger to Microsoft. Man, I need to go buy some AMD stock. smile.gif

For all the bitching DX gets the one thing it's good at is that older games will almost always be able to run on new machines. Even if hardware changes or DX code is dropped, there's always a somewhat easier workaround a cracker can find to make it work.

Before D3D and DX games were a mess of what worked up to that point, and rarely worked on OS or API revisions down the line.

My only worry is I really hope this doesn't end up breaking PC backwards compatibility. I'm with Valve on SteamOS from here on out, so hopefully they work something out there.
post #5912 of 15438
The only way it would break PC BC is if it was such a runaway success that Microsoft gave up on DX, and everyone gave up on supporting DX in future GPUs. It's far fetched, but still plausible. Who can say? All I know is that nothing makes sense anymore:

-Consoles are all fixed platforms derived from PC tech...but it's a clean sweep for AMD, not Intel.
-Valve is launching a console...based on Linux, not windows.
-Sony is making the gaming-centric, less expensive console that's getting huge praise from gamers, Microsoft is making the more expensive console with unproven tech that got slammed by gamers, and Nintendo's console is basically DOA.
-Closed APIs are returning to the PC in graphics and audio, just as Intel's graphics are finally becoming competitive.
-Apple's mobile phone is the biggest gaming platform in the world, but google's smartphone OS crushes them in overall marketshare, and MS is just a bit player.

And that's just a taste of our current insanity. Years ago I'd have called anyone crazy if they predicted any of that, but the tech world has basically turned upside down in every way possible.
post #5913 of 15438
Before yesterday everyone was predicting the slow death of AMD, now they are in a position to take over, truly a strange world.
post #5914 of 15438
Sometimes you got to roll the hard six.
post #5915 of 15438
And now that the entire industry is full on assaulting MS, they might step up the fight. They can double down on windows gaming and improve DX before it's loses too much ground to SteamOS. They could open up the Xbox platform and make a steambox competitor, so we can buy Xboxes of every shape, size and performance level. Nothing is sacred anymore.

And where does that leave Sony? Are they prepared to do the same, or are they really gonna ride out a single hardware design for another 7 years?
post #5916 of 15438
I really don't see another generation that lasts 8 years, I expect this one to last 4-5 years at most. Heck, consoles may adopt the Apple model and release updates every 12-18 months with true hardware BC. It is too early to predict where gaming is going, too much is in flux right now.
post #5917 of 15438
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

And where does that leave Sony? Are they prepared to do the same, or are they really gonna ride out a single hardware design for another 7 years?
Sony has already hinted at one major new way they plan to expand their gaming brand.
post #5918 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Before yesterday everyone was predicting the slow death of AMD, now they are in a position to take over, truly a strange world.

What'd they do?
post #5919 of 15438
They announced "mantle", a low level API for PC that leverages all the optimization work devs will do for the consoles, basically erasing the fixed platform advantage that consoles have. It's not tied to windows either. While they were at it, they're also adding custom 3D audio chips on their new graphics cards.

It's a huge power play, if they succeed they'll completely own both console and PC gaming.
post #5920 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

They announced "mantle", a low level API for PC that leverages all the optimization work devs will do for the consoles, basically erasing the fixed platform advantage that consoles have. It's not tied to windows either. While they were at it, they're also adding custom 3D audio chips on their new graphics cards.

It's a huge power play, if they succeed they'll completely own both console and PC gaming.

So in the end all games on all platforms will match?
post #5921 of 15438
Nah, it's still dependent on hardware, the main difference is that PC wouldn't be at a major disadvantage.
post #5922 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Nah, it's still dependent on hardware, the main difference is that PC wouldn't be at a major disadvantage.

That sentence does not compute. Your spellcheck is busted.
post #5923 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

That sentence does not compute. Your spellcheck is busted.

What part are you confused about?
post #5924 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

What part are you confused about?

Kidding. PC at a disadvantage is just weird language.
post #5925 of 15438
opengl competes with DX...

and those games / libraries integrate together just fine.

I don't see anything being an Windows DX killer.
post #5926 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

Kidding. PC at a disadvantage is just weird language.

Yeah, I guess it's not clear out of context, I'm talking about the optimization disadvantage. Take that away from consoles, give the PC a better couch UI, and then they've got some serious competition.
post #5927 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

opengl competes with DX...

and those games / libraries integrate together just fine.

I don't see anything being an Windows DX killer.

It would happen step by step. AMD's GCN is in all the consoles, so devs work hard to write optimized low level code for GCN. AMD then ports that low level API to Windows, devs already optimized for it, so it gets a ton of PC support despite being proprietary. Now AMD cards are significantly outperforming nvidia cards at the same price point in every game that supports mantle. AMD GPUs start to take over the market because performance is king, which further entrenches mantle rather than DX as the de facto standard for PC gaming. Once you don't need DX support to sell your game, it will make more sense to use OpenGL as the cross-platform API instead. I know it sounds crazy, but given enough time, DX and windows could end up as marginalized a gaming platform as the Mac.

Up until a few days ago it seemed like a two way fight between MS and Sony, but things just got way more interesting.
Edited by bd2003 - 9/26/13 at 12:29pm
post #5928 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

They announced "mantle", a low level API for PC that leverages all the optimization work devs will do for the consoles, basically erasing the fixed platform advantage that consoles have. It's not tied to windows either. While they were at it, they're also adding custom 3D audio chips on their new graphics cards.

It's a huge power play, if they succeed they'll completely own both console and PC gaming.

I wouldn't say erasing it. It also sort of ties AMD's hands in hardware because they need to make sure it's always up to date to any new tech they go after, while also providing legacy support on outdated code/hardware going forward.

DX/D3D was always created with the idea that it wasn't as efficient, but it would always work across a breath of hardware,not break compatibility, and somewhat standardize development. It came about back in the day when D3D, OpenGL, Glide and a million different smaller API's made for individual games were used, fracturing the market horribly and driving up development costs (while making it hell for consumers).

It is a power play, and it is slightly out of desperation. EA probably jumped on it because of it's similarities to XB1/PS4's low level API, which probably drastically lowered their development costs. Then they just port the DX version and optimize it as best they can. It's going to benefit us this generation on consoles. And it looks to benefit ATI PC gamers and possibly SteamOS adopters with ATI cards... for now. But it also feels a bit like the Voodoo / D3D wars are going to get started up again, which wasn't too good for consumers in the end. Nvidia/Intel probably won't sit around and will probably go their own route with a low level API now, essentially ditching DX.

MS/DX stands to lose out big time after years of being THE development environment. They're going to have to respond to this, on top of Valve going after their OS market share with gamers.

The death of Window Desktop PC is coming, and everyone is staking out claims now to different pieces of the pie! smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Once you don't need DX support to sell your game, it will make more sense to use OpenGL as the cross-platform API instead. I know it sounds crazy, but given enough time, DX and windows could end up as marginalized a gaming platform as the Mac.

Up until a few days ago it seemed like a two way fight between MS and Sony, but things just got way more interesting.

Further, DX is pretty much only used for Windows and windows platform games. SteamOS will have it's own OpenGL API and you bet they'll be working closely with ATI now (and possibly Nvidia when they jump). On top of that every mobile platform san Windows Phone is already using OpenGL. iOS? OpenGL...

Apparently everyone smells blood in the water with the rise of tablets, smartphones, and Windows 8.
Edited by TyrantII - 9/26/13 at 1:29pm
post #5929 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post


The death of Window Desktop PC is coming, and everyone is staking out claims now to different pieces of the pie! smile.gif

Where exactly? Maybe at home but doubtful at work.
post #5930 of 15438
Has there been any talk whatsoever in regards to games supporting 3D on PS4 ? Reason I ask, is I was looking at some pictures of the PS4 UI, and it appears there is a setting for TV Size, which is normally associated with 3D. Any chance that Knack or Killzone or DriveClub will feature a 3D option ? Also, any talk if the Blu Ray player supports 3D for 3D Blu Ray movies ? Since the PS3 supports that, I would assume the PS4 does as well, but have never heard anything specific about it.
post #5931 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

It would happen step by step. AMD's GCN is in all the consoles, so devs work hard to write optimized low level code for GCN. AMD then ports that low level API to Windows, devs already optimized for it, so it gets a ton of PC support despite being proprietary. Now AMD cards are significantly outperforming nvidia cards at the same price point in every game that supports mantle. AMD GPUs start to take over the market because performance is king, which further entrenches mantle rather than DX as the de facto standard for PC gaming. Once you don't need DX support to sell your game, it will make more sense to use OpenGL as the cross-platform API instead. I know it sounds crazy, but given enough time, DX and windows could end up as marginalized a gaming platform as the Mac.

Up until a few days ago it seemed like a two way fight between MS and Sony, but things just got way more interesting.

I think you are jumping to conclusions a little to quick here bd.

First, from the point of view of this humble console only gamer, I don't see how these announcements change anything as far as the coming console generation goes. Neither the mantle or SteamOS announcements have made PC gaming suddenly look more appealing to me because you'll still have to upgrade more often (then consoles) to get the best performance. GTA V is a game that looks light years ahead of the first games released on the 360 8 years ago and my 360 runs GTA V like a champ. I doubt mantle will pull off the same for 8 year old PCs, not with out some hardware upgrades. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying but I just don't see this challenging consoles in the optimization department... consoles are always going to be king here unless every PC gamer buys the exact same hardware at the same time.

As far as Windows becoming marginalized, I doubt that will happen. Most people still buy PCs to do more then just gaming so unless SteamOS and mantle are going to also run things like Word and Excel then Windows will still dominate. I know some hardcore gamers will build gaming systems but, most people don't. If PC games only sold to those with gaming specific systems then there sales only would be a fraction of what they are today.

From the point of view of this console only gamer, I just don't see these announcements changing the scene a whole lot, at least not for many years. Still looks like Sony vs MS to me, nothing in the past few days has made me question my PS4 pre-order out of the hopes for something better coming soon.

Honestly, I don't even get the excitement around SteamOS and the Steam Machines. I guess if you are already a Steam user and PC gamer it is exciting but, it didn't do anything to make PC gaming appear like a better solution the then PS4 or Xbox One, not to my eyes at least.
post #5932 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

Where exactly? Maybe at home but doubtful at work.

Corporate desktops will take longer, but them to are moving towards terminals with cloud storage, cloud applications and offsite IT support. The NSA thing probably slowed it down even more, but it will be that way eventually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post

As far as Windows becoming marginalized, I doubt that will happen. Most people still buy PCs to do more then just gaming so unless SteamOS and mantle are going to also run things like Word and Excel then Windows will still dominate. I know some hardcore gamers will build gaming systems but, most people don't. If PC games only sold to those with gaming specific systems then there sales only would be a fraction of what they are today.

It already is well on it's way to being marginalized if you've been following Windows / Desktop sales. People are moving to tablets and mobile. Pretty soon you'll have that same functionality on a tablet or smaller. In 10 years you'll have a phone sized PC that puts out Titan like graphics and syncs with any and all displays and input devices. It'll be sealed like a phone as a throwaway / upgradable, walled garden device consumer device. It also won't be bleeding edge tech, and it won't be able to put out top of the line graphics because of it's form factor, power limits, ect. By todays standards it'll be nuts, but by whats possible tomorrow it won't cut it.

The move now is about chipping off PC gamers that enjoy building that mid to high end hardware being at the edge of performance, and capturing that market thats going to be left behind. There's not enough of them to change the trajectory of where general computing and cloud services is heading for a company like MS.

For valve / nvidia/ ati that's not the case, and they see the writing on the wall. These moves are precisely because of MS signalling a turn away from that market towards tablet/mobile and cloud services.
Edited by TyrantII - 9/26/13 at 2:30pm
post #5933 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post


Honestly, I don't even get the excitement around SteamOS and the Steam Machines. I guess if you are already a Steam user and PC gamer it is exciting but, it didn't do anything to make PC gaming appear like a better solution the then PS4 or Xbox One, not to my eyes at least.

You sound like someone who hasn't experienced the joy that is user created mods. I agree, console gaming will still dominate and I don't see the hardware lifecycle changing much (yearly upgrades). But if I have a steamBox I can put in my living room and still get the advantages of pc gaming (keyboard/mouse support and mods), that is a definite win.

I'll still have my consoles though.
post #5934 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

I wouldn't say erasing it. It also sort of ties AMD's hands in hardware because they need to make sure it's always up to date to any new tech they go after, while also providing legacy support on outdated code/hardware going forward.

DX/D3D was always created with the idea that it wasn't as efficient, but it would always work across a breath of hardware,not break compatibility, and somewhat standardize development. It came about back in the day when D3D, OpenGL, Glide and a million different smaller API's made for individual games were used, fracturing the market horribly and driving up development costs (while making it hell for consumers).

It is a power play, and it is slightly out of desperation. EA probably jumped on it because of it's similarities to XB1/PS4's low level API, which probably drastically lowered their development costs. Then they just port the DX version and optimize it as best they can. It's going to benefit us this generation on consoles. And it looks to benefit ATI PC gamers and possibly SteamOS adopters with ATI cards... for now. But it also feels a bit like the Voodoo / D3D wars are going to get started up again, which wasn't too good for consumers in the end. Nvidia/Intel probably won't sit around and will probably go their own route with a low level API now, essentially ditching DX.

MS/DX stands to lose out big time after years of being THE development environment. They're going to have to respond to this, on top of Valve going after their OS market share with gamers.

The death of Window Desktop PC is coming, and everyone is staking out claims now to different pieces of the pie! smile.gif
Further, DX is pretty much only used for Windows and windows platform games. SteamOS will have it's own OpenGL API and you bet they'll be working closely with ATI now (and possibly Nvidia when they jump). On top of that every mobile platform san Windows Phone is already using OpenGL. iOS? OpenGL...

Apparently everyone smells blood in the water with the rise of tablets, smartphones, and Windows 8.

Yeah, but if it works and AMD starts dominating the market, they won't need to update their architecture that frequently. If Intel can keep X86 going for a few decades by just extending their old architecture, AMD can keep GCN going for a while. Imagine nvidia being forced to license GCN just to survive...it could happen.

It's kind of hard to overstate how threatened MS is nowadays. They're irrelevant in the smartphone/tablet space, the desktop/laptop becomes less relevant to consumers by the day, and windows 8 was a failure that did more harm to its PC business than good for its mobile business. That it's the defacto PC gaming OS is the only reason I continue to use it, and even then I'm sticking with Win7. Everything else they do but Xbox in the consumer space is a joke. Anyone here own a surface? Anyone who bings it instead of googling it?

And now Xbox doesn't seem so invincible anymore, and both their gaming platforms are under assault from every angle, including from their former allies.

I hope the fangs come out now that they're backed in a corner, and they come out with some amazing stuff, like they did with Win 7. If apple can rise from the dead, so can MS. But if they continue to phone it in for a few more years, I wouldn't be surprised to see them pack it up and focus on business services like IBM.
post #5935 of 15438
Back to the PS4, here is a video of the OS in action without a script. Very fast and is pretty much an enhanced XMB.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sl454gLQ3sA
post #5936 of 15438
What I've always disliked about the xmb is wasted space. I've got this big screen and they go and make everything a menu option that you have to scroll down through to find. Show me everything (or at least as much as possible) available, so I can make my choice without scrolling through everything. I'm not saying clutter it up, but it can be done much better in my opinion.

My ideal solution would be a ui closer to what current xbox 360 dash looks like, but with a separate home screen where I can put whatever I want on it, kind of like an android device.
post #5937 of 15438
Interface works fine.
post #5938 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by RemoWilliams84 View Post

What I've always disliked about the xmb is wasted space. I've got this big screen and they go and make everything a menu option that you have to scroll down through to find. Show me everything (or at least as much as possible) available, so I can make my choice without scrolling through everything. I'm not saying clutter it up, but it can be done much better in my opinion.

My ideal solution would be a ui closer to what current xbox 360 dash looks like, but with a separate home screen where I can put whatever I want on it, kind of like an android device.

The Wii, 3DS and Wii U do just that, I still prefer the XMB to that style. I can get where I want on the XMB in less time and it is much less cluttered.
post #5939 of 15438
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The Wii, 3DS and Wii U do just that, I still prefer the XMB to that style. I can get where I want on the XMB in less time and it is much less cluttered.
Agree.
post #5940 of 15438
Hey what's that TAG TEAM thingy, PENDRAG0ON?
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