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PlayStation 4 - Page 24

post #691 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zookster View Post

Good info. Do we know for sure yet if the current Move controllers will work with the PS4?

Im pretty sure they mentioned in the original presentation that it would.

What I really wanna know is, is the HDD removable?
post #692 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

What I really wanna know is, is the HDD removable?

You and me both. First thing I plan on doing is putting an SSD in it.
post #693 of 15135
^^^^^^ I can think of better ways to waste 500 bucks.
Edited by blklightning - 3/28/13 at 2:42pm
post #694 of 15135
You came in here just to say that?
post #695 of 15135
I'm glad the analog face buttons are going away. Aside from a couple of games, the only thing analog buttons did was fail to register because I didn't hit it hard enough. The two triggers should stay analog because they're more useful that way and have enough travel to make it work right.

I'm wondering about the HDD options also. Hope they keep it simple and let us swap it ourselves.
Edited by Crash44 - 3/27/13 at 3:55pm
post #696 of 15135
Thread Starter 
It turns out, Sony removed the analog ability in buttons for game play improvements. Here is some more info added to the NeoGAF summary link above:
Quote:
Force feedback has two (1 small, 1 big) analog motors, as opposed to the digital ones in PS3. Allows for "more precise, cool effects."
Removing "analog" face buttons and going with digital will "cut latency way down" for the new controller.
The system will stream 32Khz sound up to 2 controllers, and 16Khz for 3 or more players.
.
.
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Sony is building its CPU on what it's calling an extended DirectX 11.1+ feature set, including extra debugging support that is not available on PC platforms. This system will also give developers more direct access to the shader pipeline than they had on the PS3 or through DirectX itself. "This is access you're not used to getting on the PC, and as a result you can do a lot more cool things and have a lot more access to the power of the system," Norden said.
post #697 of 15135
Wait a second... Did Sony actually licence DX for the PS4!?
post #698 of 15135
If Sony ends up wanting people to use PlayStation branded hard drives, I really hope they are paying attention to how the public is reacting to the expensive memory card problem with the PS Vita. Eighter make sure it's a fair price or allow people to use their own hard drives. Give yourself an image that your more consumer friendly than Microsoft in a few areas and that can pay off. It would be a bit ironic if Microsoft ended up allowing people to use their own hard drives and Sony ended up wanting you to purchase expensive PlayStation branded hard drive attachments for people who wants more space. Worse case scenario is not being able to change it out period. Still, with that said, it looks like Sony might try to be very generous when it comes to the storage capacity it'll come with. It wouldn't surprise me to see 1TB in the top PS4 model since you're already able to get a PS3 with 500GB.
Edited by Paulo Teixeira - 3/27/13 at 4:53pm
post #699 of 15135
In regards to the camera:
Quote:
...there's a dedicated port for it -- an exclusive SCE connector...

This makes me wonder how long the cable is. I have all my equipment in the back of the room and I had to purchase a long USB extension to get my PS3 camera working above my projection screen. If it isn't long enough (doubt it), what does that mean for my setup? Will Sony even sell extension/longer cables.

I too am curious about HDD replacement.
post #700 of 15135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

If Sony ends up wanting people to use PlayStation branded hard drives, I really hope they are paying attention to how the public is reacting to the expensive memory card problem with the PS Vita. Eighter make sure it's a fair price or allow people to use their own hard drives. Give yourself an image that your more consumer friendly than Microsoft in a few areas and that can pay off. It would be a bit ironic if Microsoft ended up allowing people to use their own hard drives and Sony ended up wanting you to purchase expensive PlayStation branded hard drive attachments for people who wants more space. Worse case scenario is not being able to change it out period. Still, with that said, it looks like Sony might try to be very generous when it comes to the storage capacity it'll come with. It wouldn't surprise me to see 1TB in the top PS4 model since you're already able to get a PS3 with 500GB.

I don't see what gave you the indication that the "very large hard drive" would be proprietary. The Vita is a special case because of how hackers abused the standardized Memory Stick that allowed easier pirating on the PSP. The PS3 has not been hacked wide open to allow easy access to pirated PS3 games, so I seriously doubt that they would force a proprietary hard drive on us when almost every bit of PS4 tech news so far has been about keeping costs low. Still, we won't know until the final specs are out I suppose.
Edited by joeblow - 3/27/13 at 7:10pm
post #701 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Wait a second... Did Sony actually licence DX for the PS4!?

Trying to figure this out myself. I think they're just saying better than DX11+ capabilities, because as far a I knew you had to be either the 360 (special case), or running a MS OS to have it.

Once again thou, if true it proves that the fanboy wars are just a thing to people who don't know much, and care about their tribalistic rituals. If something makes sense and better positions a multifaceted product like a gaming console, they'll license it. Bluray, DX, DIVX, Netflix, rumble, whatever. If the cost benefit works, they could care less who gets a small royalty.

Edit: Sounds to me they're talking up their PlayStation Shader Language, which is based on GLSL (OpenGL 4.0?) and comparable to HLSL. So no to DX11, but they will be compiling and debugging their games with Visual Studio which is pretty much the industry standard for x86 IDE. Here's the full quote:
Quote:
Sony is building its CPU on what it's calling an extended DirectX 11.1+ feature set, including extra debugging support that is not available on PC platforms. This system will also give developers more direct access to the shader pipeline than they had on the PS3 or through DirectX itself. "This is access you're not used to getting on the PC, and as a result you can do a lot more cool things and have a lot more access to the power of the system," Norden said. A low-level API will also let coders talk directly with the hardware in a way that's "much lower-level than DirectX and OpenGL," but still not quite at the driver level.

The system is also set up to run graphics and computational code synchronously, without suspending one to run the other. Norden says that Sony has worked to carefully balance the two processors to provide maximum graphics power of 1.843 teraFLOPS at an 800Mhz clock speed while still leaving enough room for computational tasks. The GPU will also be able to run arbitrary code, allowing developers to run hundreds or thousands of parallelized tasks with full access to the system's 8GB of unified memory.

Also saw a claim that PS4 is supposedly a custom modified BSD kernel with full support for multitasking, multithreading, etc. So, yes it'll run Linux

tongue.gif
Edited by TyrantII - 3/27/13 at 8:25pm
post #702 of 15135
Maybe you misunderstood me or I'm misunderstanding you but I meant it would come with a hard drive and that their could always be a possibility of having PlayStation branded drives on top of that for people who needs even more storage. At least that would be better than nothing but we'll hope we can change out our own drives. It's good for these companies to know that we'd prefer things to stay the way they are in case they were to ever thought otherwise. Sort of like the always online situation of the 720. The minute that news broke out, in case the rumor was true, the out-lash might have caused Microsoft to re-think some things although at the same time, theirs always a chance that any company would stay the course regardless like Sony never wanting the 32GB cards to stay $60 for example. Even I have said part of the reason to have those cards are to try and prevent piracy but theirs absolutely no denying that another reason was to make extra money by over charging when they should at the very least offer some PSN credit for each card purchase if they don't want to lower the prices yet. All we know is that it would be smart if Sony said we can put in our own hard drives but they haven't said anything yet.
post #703 of 15135
If they chose to do what microsoft does with their HDDs, what is the loss. They increase the price to stupidness, just like the sony memory cards and make money. You have no choice but to buy it if you want it. They have no choice but to take your money.
post #704 of 15135
Thread Starter 
If not for the pirating debacle on the PSP, I truly doubt that the Vita cards would have been proprietary. 3rd party publishers no doubt wailed about the impact piracy had on sales despite a healthy amount of hardware units sold. To woo them for the Vita, it seems very likely that the custom mem cards was a concession. When all is said and done, they make the most money when software and DLC sales are improving, and peripherals alone can't make up enough potential losses in that area.

One other thing to consider for the PS4. It is possible that we may not be able to remove the hard drive at all. If Sony supplies a 2TB drive (I know, its doubtful to be that much), they may say it is enough. But what if the larger games and increased focus on digital dloads eats up the space? Well, that's where the improved load'n play features come in.

Theoretically, for the PS4 you won't have to have 500GB of games fully downloaded on your system to enjoy them when you want. You can remove older games that don't get much play time, and when you want to play it again, all of these new PS4 (near) insta-play tech will allow you to start enjoying the title again after you dload the initial files.

We won't know how well this works until we probably get to E3, but it is something to consider. Either way, I want the ability to choose my own drive too, if only to have the option of an SSD if I think it will improve the experience.
post #705 of 15135
And yet the Vita memory cards have done nothing to stop hackers. (lack of interest has done far more, they are content with PSP mode for now)

Still hoping the Vita "slim" has SD card support and a LCD screen. (every OLED screen I have seen that is more than 4 months old has burn in, the tech just isn't ready yet)
post #706 of 15135
If this was only about piracy, Sony would have still came out with PS Vita only cards but it would be priced fairly.. It's really about both piracy and wanting to make a ton of money off those cards. I guess we can all hope for the best that Sony will try and be more pro consumer when it comes to the PS4's storage than they have for the PS Vita's.

Seeing how the new consoles will fare compared to the previous generation will be entertainment. Let the games begin.
post #707 of 15135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

And yet the Vita memory cards have done nothing to stop hackers. (lack of interest has done far more, they are content with PSP mode for now)

The hackers "are content with PSP mode for now"?

Hackers will ALWAYS go as far as they can. With the PS3, they couldn't fully crack it open for PS3 ISOs like what happened to the PSOne, PS2 and PSP. The Vita so far has not been cracked for Vita ISOs either. Its not from lack of trying, and they will continue to attack it. What they will not do is become satisfied with limited access.
post #708 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrd View Post

If they chose to do what microsoft does with their HDDs, what is the loss. They increase the price to stupidness, just like the sony memory cards and make money. You have no choice but to buy it if you want it. They have no choice but to take your money.

The loss is that it makes their users hate them. It's blatant contempt. It's stuff like this that has me buying a PS4 before a nextbox.

Either way, USB 3 (5gbps) is almost as fast as SATA III (6gbps). So worst case you'll still be able to add an SSD externally, but internal will still be faster and neater.
Edited by bd2003 - 3/28/13 at 5:49am
post #709 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

If this was only about piracy, Sony would have still came out with PS Vita only cards but it would be priced fairly.. It's really about both piracy and wanting to make a ton of money off those cards. I guess we can all hope for the best that Sony will try and be more pro consumer when it comes to the PS4's storage than they have for the PS Vita's.

Seeing how the new consoles will fare compared to the previous generation will be entertainment. Let the games begin.

Most of the reason the cards are so expensive is that they are proprietary so COGS is not spread across billions of units like SD cards. They need to recover the fixed costs of startup, which you no longer pay for in your average 16gb or 32gb SD card.
post #710 of 15135
I'm not expecting standard speed and regular sized SD card prices because I know that would be an unfair comparison. A fairer comparison would be something like this.
64GB Micro SDXC card from Sandisk. It's currently being sold for $55.13.
http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-MicroSDXC-Memory-Adapter-SDSDQU-064G-AFFP-A/dp/B009QZH6JS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1364486177&sr=8-3&keywords=32+memory+card+sdxc+micro
The least they could have done was to eighter stick with the $60 price if they're still making a profit at the price or as mentioned, offer PSN credit depending on the capacity of the card. Obviously they'd lower it right away, the second they release a higher capacity card I believe. For sure it would help if we knew exactly how much it costs to manufacture.

Yes I know it's getting a little bit off topic and as mentioned, hopefully things stay the same on the PS4 as it did to the PS3. If they wanted to, they can definitely make changing out hard drive of the PS4 easier than the way it is now with the PS3.
post #711 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

I'm not expecting standard speed and regular sized SD card prices because I know that would be an unfair comparison. A fairer comparison would be something like this.
64GB Micro SDXC card from Sandisk. It's currently being sold for $55.13.
http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-MicroSDXC-Memory-Adapter-SDSDQU-064G-AFFP-A/dp/B009QZH6JS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1364486177&sr=8-3&keywords=32+memory+card+sdxc+micro
The least they could have done was to eighter stick with the $60 price if they're still making a profit at the price or as mentioned, offer PSN credit depending on the capacity of the card. Obviously they'd lower it right away, the second they release a higher capacity card I believe. For sure it would help if we knew exactly how much it costs to manufacture.

Yes I know it's getting a little bit off topic and as mentioned, hopefully things stay the same on the PS4 as it did to the PS3. If they wanted to, they can definitely make changing out hard drive of the PS4 easier than the way it is now with the PS3.

You know what would be absolutely killer (but really far fetched)? If it could work with a NAS. You'd still need an internal hard drive/SSD for fast local storage, but if you could move your excess and back up onto a NAS, you wouldn't have to worry about redownloading or reinstalling everything if you switch HDDs or run out of space.

If they're clever about it, adding a USB drive/NAS could painlessly increase your storage space, the OS could manage everything without any fiddling on the user's part, and save them a huge amount of bandwidth in the process.
post #712 of 15135
If they truly want to make the PS4 the center of the living room, they will make HD upgrades easy. MS had the same aspiration with the Xbox but then they made really expensive and small HDs proprietary to the system, hobbling the utility of the system. The new Dish DVR is available as a 2TB drive and that offering will grow over time. This is especially so if the new Ultra HD is going to take off, which Sony is pushing. This all leads me to believe that cheap and easy storage will be accommodated.
post #713 of 15135
They confirmed the BD drive is only dual layer 50GB at GDC. A little bit of a bummer, but not a huge limitation considering they can ship a second disc that fully installs.

They reiterated their plans to stealth install and get you playing quickly, but didnt go as far as to clarify whether installs are mandatory. Again, something I think is a non-issue because every PS4 has a HDD, and installing to the HDD is far faster than reading directly from the disc anyway, and the stealth install method essentially provides near unlimited HDD space anyway.
post #714 of 15135
Thread Starter 
Yeah, that's what I was saying. If it has a large drive combined with the new play-while-installing feature, it isn't a big deal if you don't have all 100 of your games simultaneously installed.

What I would like to see however is the ability to go disc-less with a full install if I choose to with my retail purchases. If not, I may stick to all digital purchases next gen like I've already done on my PC.
post #715 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

Yeah, that's what I was saying. If it has a large drive combined with the new play-while-installing feature, it isn't a big deal if you don't have all 100 of your games simultaneously installed.

What I would like to see however is the ability to go disc-less with a full install if I choose to with my retail purchases. If not, I may stick to all digital purchases next gen like I've already done on my PC.

Yep, me too, although that would require at least a one time online activation, which I know a lot of people aren't crazy about. I'm fine with it, but there will be a ton of resistance. I guess they could do it offline like PC games in the 2000s, but I doubt it.

Ideally the way I imagine they manage storage space is this: Every game is broken into distinct blocks, 1GB or so. Each block is marked as essential (required to play at all), important (better present than not) and ancillary (least likely to be accessed, cutscenes etc). Keeping games in large chunks prevents fragmentation, which is def a problem on the PS3. When the PS4 is suspended, it should work to defrag and keep all the individual blocks of each game in a single contiguous block, in order of importance. This should increase the overall level and consistency of HDD performance, which would make it much easier for devs to optimize load speed. When disc space starts to run dry, the least important blocks from the least played game begin to get dropped. Whenever you play an incomplete game it automatically begins redownloading or reinstalling from disc. A single HDD could provide support for a ton of games, although the more you have, the more often you're prompted to reinsert the disc, so you'd want a way to increase storage.

So storage could then easily be increased by just plugging in a USB drive (or NAS hopefully) and add it to a global storage pool. Instead of worrying about which games are installed where, or potentially poor performance from a slow drive, the extra drive(s) are used as a cache for blocks that would otherwise have been deleted. Then if a game ever needs them, they're available from relatively fast local storage, without having to download or pop in a disc. They could also use a second drive to automatically back up saves/profiles/firmware and provide an additional layer of redundancy for irreplaceable data, even if the console or cloud saves are offline.

It'd also make migrating to a new PS4 or internal drive much easier. You could enter a migration mode where it automatically fills up an external drive to capacity in order of importance of blocks, and then when you swap drives it dumps it right back onto the new drive and then clears it out.

It'd be the best of both worlds - devs only need to worry about the performance characteristics of the internal drive everyone is guaranteed to have, and users can even add even the worst USB drives to extend their space with a single click, without ever having to manage space or state at progress bars.
Edited by bd2003 - 3/28/13 at 1:10pm
post #716 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

You came in here just to say that?


Yeah, I came in here to comment that a SSD drive for a system with 8 gigs of DDR5 ram is a total waste of money.
post #717 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

Yeah, I came in here to comment that a SSD drive for a system with 8 gigs of DDR5 ram is a total waste of money.

You couldn't be more wrong. That 8GB needs to be populated with data from the HDD, and a 5400 RPM drive can read sequentially about 100mb/sec. And loads are *never* fully sequential like that, so real world numbers are even lower. Even in the best case scenario it'll take over a minute to fill that 8GB up. A game won't need to necessarily max out its memory before it starts playing, but it still needs to read in a huge chunk of data. An SSD can read at 5x the speed sequentially and an order of magnitude or two faster randomly. It would be an enormous benefit, I'm still holding out hope that there's a small (4-16 GB) onboard SSD cache. Any time you're staring at a load screen, which is still going to happen despite their best efforts, is going to go MUCH faster with an SSD. And if their file system is as sophisticated as I hope it'll be, all you'll need is a cheap < $100 and falling 120GB drive to reap all the benefits. Another option is a hybrid drive ($100 for 1TB), that will at least get you partially the way there.
Edited by bd2003 - 3/28/13 at 3:06pm
post #718 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

Yeah, I came in here to comment that a SSD drive for a system with 8 gigs of DDR5 ram is a total waste of money.
post #719 of 15135
Storage will be decided by whatever cheapest deal Somy can get. Load times matter a LOT less tha gfx quality. The 8GB DDR5 on which they blew most of their budget will allow much better graphics, it doesn't matter if it takes 10s longer for a game to load.
post #720 of 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynesjc View Post


Not really. With limited ram, some devs did use the HDD as a cache. But they won't with that much super fast ram onboard. So all you'll save on is install times. Big whoop. Saving 20 minutes a year on game installs isn't worth anywhere near 400 bucks. Especially since Sony have already stated that this function can be performed in the background with the PS4.
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