Best Center Channel ever .. ?! :) - Page 2

It's true that the average listener would have a very different opinion of the VP 180 than I would. They'd probably notice something odd, especially if they walked across the soundfield, but probably wouldn't be able to put their finger on exactly what. I know just by looking at it what deficiencies it has, and to me they'd stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. And of course I'd have my aural memory of what my center sounds like.

What center do you run Bill? Just interested. Trying to learn here lol

So what would be a few examples of well designed centers and why...as opposed to crummy designs.

My own design, an SLA CurveArray. There are no commercial equivalents.
With off the shelf the most difficult to design are those using dual woofers or dual midbasses or dual tweeters horizontally arrayed, so that's what you want to avoid. The ones of that sort most likely to work well have little to no space between the drivers. The ones most likely to work badly look like the VP180, which could only be worse if it had the tweeters on the outside and the woofers in the middle.
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 2/22/13 at 2:23pm

Yeah, .. my Rumsfeld quote was referring to both the individual that reviewed it in post #26, and those designing it.

You're right, upon first glance ... the flaws are glaring.

I have three of these across the front.

They are outstanding as centers, as well as L&R duty too. As stated by Craig John in the 2nd post in this thread, three identical speakers across the front, all aligned horizontally, is the theoretical ideal. Any well executed coaxial design has inherent advantages in that it mitigates many of the issues that plague many laterally arrayed offerings. This doesn't mean coaxial designs are automatically better, there are very good centers representing different design approaches.

I believe/hope you mean vertically.

I don't think he would want his LCR aligned vertically. If he did that they would be on top of each other. I presume he means aligned horizontally: meaning the tweeters, midrange and woofer of each of the three LCR speakers are on the same plane horizontally (i.e., they're the same height because they are three identical speakers).

eD Cinema 12 center is the only true center channel that I've ever heard and liked.

Most center channels sound small and boxy to me. The way around it is an acousticly transparent screen and three identical matching speakers setup vertically.

I like JTR, Seaton, and DIY Statement speakers for center channels too, but these other options are just basically small towers that you orient how you want --- so that isn't really what the question is asking IMO. The eD is the only true center I've heard or owned that I liked which is a true center channel with a non standard L/R layout. It is an excellent center. Dialogue in movies is fantastic and clear.

Good thread and love reading about these centers-thanks

Of course a matching center that is identical to left/right is best but how many in this forum have a dedicated theater room to support this? I bet less than 10 percent. Most of us have to get by

I have posted time and again here that to me the center is the most important piece of the HT followed by sub. If you invest the farm in your center, meaning go for the best you can with a brand you love you will be set. Your left/right will be timber matched and I'm sure on equal level.

Once you get away from the small boxy center, just like a larger display (70 and up) you will never go back.

I was lucky enough to demo my center which is always not possible. Emphasis at stores is always the left/right pair.

Speakers are subjective of course but I really have never heard a better center than my Dynaudio Confidence Center. It is mind boggling how good it is. I loved it so much I went with Confidence Monitors over towers as I would have never been able to afford this line with towers. This was another great lesson to learn. I did not need towers with a great sub. Going this direction got me the Confidence Center. For me I'm done. It's been several years and I never think about upgrading. Plus I couldn't afford to anyway. Spend big once and be done.

I have heard the Bowers & Wilkins, Paradigm and Sonus Faber Cremona centers and the Confidence just does it for me. Pop in a Blu-ray concert and it's a two handed orgasam.

I never dreamed I would invest in a $7k center but it changed my entire HT.

So many disagree but I really do think you should sink a large chunk of change in your center. Seek it out and not an after thought. Go monitors if you can't afford towers to get that center. All my opinion only! Maybe I will try to some pictures tomorrow. You can sort of see it in my avatar.

I would love to hear Revel Voice someday to compare and my second favorite to date was the Sonus Faber Cremona Center. Just awesome.

Rick
Edited by Mr.SoftDome - 2/23/13 at 12:59am

I've always been partial to the Aerial CC-5 matched w/a pair of Model 9's.

So, this tread will turn into a 6.2L Hemi thread.......

Mine.

I was referring to the orientation of the speakers, and if he has the drivers on the horizontal plane he's inviting comb filtering and narrowed dispersion. If one is forced to have the drivers horizontal with the center because that's the only way it can physically fit then you have to live with it. But there's no reason to place the L/R horizontally, so don't.

Thiel MCS1 is definitely up there. Super clean and very capable. Sounds amazing in an all Thiel set up.

Horizontally aligned, vertically oriented.

---

I always liked ED, and their typical offerings. The ED Cinema two way made so much sense, and I was glad they finally went in that direction.Especially, when they were convinced to utilize the superb B&C DE250. Too bad they couldn't get their house in order. I never understood why one wouldn't simply use their normal/vertically oriented Cinema 12 as a center, .. unless of course vertical space was a premium. Several AVS'ers ordered the custom, side-to-side config'd design and I always thought they'd be better off with the normal model. .

In my primary home system, I've never used anything but three identical LCRs. And it seems as if oftentimes enthusiasts don't even consider it, ... they simply are conditioned to get a horizontally oriented design. To me, seems like the thing to do is get three identical mains, and make it happen.

---

I have quite a modest room, .. a typical residential, sprawling 70's era ranch home. We use our family room, which is 13'x25', and that includes an open kitchen to the rear. Point being, it's not a dedicated theater, yet I've always utilized three identical mains. Prior to the Catalysts, I had three identical 8" two ways, .. all even in a row established off the top of the display. Somewhat of a pro audio, or studio technique, above and aiming down and in ... all at the primary LP. Worked great with a variety of different two-ways I've owned or experimented with,.. I simply built three individual, .. simple yet stout brackets/shelves to the front wall, and used Mopads to isolate, and angle the speakers downward appropriately.

The height was just enough to allow the center to be above the then, 60" display. Currently, I've moved to a 65" Panny plasma, and my Seaton Cat12 center is horizontally oriented below the display, that's angled down somewhat and mounted to the wall on a robust, and very nice full motion articulating arm wall mount. It sticks out off the wall about two feet or so, enabling me to entirely cover the front wall in very thick absorption.

Here is the mount. It was the only one I found that I liked that allowed a great deal of space behind the display, and allows downward angling ... it's great. A bit scary having that big ass 65" plasma, dangling over the top of the Seaton Cat12C.

It doesn't take a dedicated room, or an AT screen, although those are clearly the ideal. My next upgrade is likely a projector, and AT screen. But the 65" plasma is superb, priorityo has always been my priority.

---

The Catalysts I use, have a coaxial MF/HF, handing off to a pair of twelves downaround 180hz. So turning them on their side doesn't incur the troublesome lobing/comb-filtering that inflict other such design approaches.

Here is a good link on the issues involved.

I realize many have seen this already, as it has been posted quite often, ... but fwiw, it's a decent compilation.

I meant vertically oriented, but aligned in the same horizontal plane.

Craig

After a much more exhaustive search ref CC speakers - Mr Rumsfeld made me do it! - I have found that despite the deficiencies that evidently are found in many horizontal CC speaker designs, in the real world, most users do not find these anomalies significant nor objectionable enough to want to toss them out the window.

Based on what I've seen in my little world, the vast majority of so-called HT systems are in middle class homes that are setup in small to medium sized rooms comprised of a TV surrounded by visible speakers. Practically, the horizontal CC is the best fit aesthetically into most of these moderately sized systems. Large projector systems with wonderful high end speakers hidden behind a screen are quite uncommon where I hang out. So, in the average setting, most folks do not sit way off center nor continually walk around the listening area during a movie & therefore don't often experience the nasties that are obsessed about in the forums.

As a layman, I surmise that the lack of negative comments/reviews on the net (there are only a few that I came across) about CC speakers of any brand or design is because these detrimental effects are just not noticed nor experienced to any major degree by most listeners. Overwhelmingly, they appear to be quite happy with their gear & the manufacturers seem to know that.

FWIW...

TAM

I'll throw in my vote:

I began my system around an Aerial CC5, however, I bested its design by using an LR5 (vertical version) for my center. I can't imagine how a center could possibly sound better.

To finish my front soundstage I simply added two more identical LR5's. Now I have three across the front.

David

I grew up dreading 'steak night' at home, because my mother bought cheap chuck steak, then cooked the bejesus out of it until it was better suited for re-soling ones shoes than having it for dinner. So after leaving home when I went out for dinner I never ordered steak, because I thought it was all like dear old Mom's. I finally relented and ordered a prime filet at Caesars in Vegas when I was 25, and then bemoaned all the times I could have had steak but passed on it.
The moral of this story is that you can't appreciate how bad something you're used to is until you've experienced how good it can be when done right.

Agreed; however, it's much easier & cheaper to sample different kinds of food than a truckload of HT speakers. I believe that most folks purchase their gear, aren't overly critical, enjoy their systems as they are & end up keeping what they have for a good while.

Enthusiasts no doubt are a different & uncommon species as they seem to continually seek the audio holy grail & hopefully someday they will find it. Their quest takes a lot of effort & expense, but worth it for them in the end.

I think that I'm in the 'most folks' camp where ignorance is bliss I suppose...

TAM

+1

I use to think the VP150 TMMMT was a good center, thats until I listened to centers from alot of other companies that stick with proven designs. Only then did I realize how horrible it sounded. Some of their other stuff isn't horrible but at the prices and against the competition I just recommend everyone just pass on them. I think the only reason they made it was because it looks cool. For a company that takes such great pride in "Research and Engineering" I never seen a single professional white paper like some other companys did. Axiom keeps everything a tight lipped secret and relys on the "Just trust us" marketing spin. Never seen Ian or the gang present any evidence or results from DBTs they perform, nothing just cheap layman marketing newsletters.

Bill, spot on.

That's how I feel about exciting and highly dynamic, high output, low compression, low distortion designs .... no going back.


That Rumsfeld stuff, was aimed at the individual that you quoted, .. their comments ... not you.

Amoung the workarounds I mentioned in the above posts, here's are good example of an approach to avoid the typical pitfalls;



I believe this is Steve Callas' room, at least at the time the photo was taken.

Now that's funny.

My Dad used to burn a steak to a crisp on the "Hibachi Grill". He didn't want any kind of pink to come through, much less any "red" interior. Based on the "shoe-leather" my Dad forced us to eat as so-called "steak", I was always confused as to what the attraction was to this cut of meat. I *hated* steak and I would never even consider ordering it in a restaurant..

Then, when I was in my 20's, a coworker invited me over for a steak dinner. I watched her cook the filets for 4 minutes per side. I was aghast, but I accepted my dinner out of politeness. I cut into the filet and found it's warm, red center and I didn't know what to think. However, when I put that piece of meat in my mouth... I was hooked for life! I became a confirmed carnivore. It was like biting into a piece of steak-flavored butter.

Hearing a properly deployed CC, identical to the L/R's, and aligned in the same horizontal plane was the same sort of revelatory experience. Once you hear a truly integrated and cohesive soundstage, it's impossible to accept less.

Craig

To me that LOOKS horrible. It may sound good. The furnishings are nice. Thus my earlier comment in regards to dedicated rooms. This layout would drive me nuts. Based on perception of the couch in the background those speakers almost look too large. Monitors might have been a better approach. Wonder if those are rear ported? How does that center breath with all that rack behind it? And the shelfs are all glass.

I am my own WAF factor. I want the best sound I can get along with looking good as well for my given non-dedicated room.

That matched center looks out of place in that room IMO.

Rick
Edited by Mr.SoftDome - 2/23/13 at 6:18pm

With all due respect... I couldn't disagree more. IMO, visual aesthetics will always take a back seat to sound quality. In the above linked system, the cohesiveness and integration of the front soundstage will far outweigh any benefit from some perceived aesthetic benefit of having a horizontally aligned CC.

But that;s just me.. and anyone else like me who values SQ over visual aesthetics. When the lights go off, who cares about the visual aesthetics anyway?

Craig

Hey Craig- I hear ya but still disagree I value sound quality as much as anyone here but using that room as an example and it's a perfect example for conversation, I bet with a different rack, a high end horizontal center, monitors instead of towers in that room, and the display hung on the wall would sound better than pictured. Those speakers are too big for that room or perhaps the display is too small or both.

I sure wish I could put my gear in that room. My room is smaller, less than perfect, the center is lower than left/right but can be tilted up and Confidence Center has a little trick that helps.

I don't see how that center can sound better crammed against the rack. I would go a different way in this room . But that's me.

Rick
Edited by Mr.SoftDome - 2/23/13 at 6:37pm

So you're worried about about the center tower being too close to the rack... but you're not worried about setting a horizontal center on top of a large flat surface (rack/tv stand), close to the wall, with a TV right above it?

I think for most of us, there are compromises, whether sonic, aesthetic, or a mix of the two... it just depends which we are willing to live with.

My display is about an inch thick and is hung on wall. My center sits forward at 2.5 feet from the rear wall maybe a bit further. Yes we make compromises but I still say for most you would not kick a top-tier horizontal center out of bed. if you could hear it.

And yes my room is far from perfect but it sure sounds pretty damn good.

and also not just focused on that speaker against the rack, I'm focused on size of speakers for that room. I still think many don't understand that towers are not for all rooms and monitors are a great sonic improvement and I think room pictured is a perfect example of this.(based on couch in background).

Rick