Official LG 84LM9600 (Ultra HD 4K) Owners' Thread

Given that there appears to be a couple of us who actually have this 84" 4K panel in our homes and it has been suggested that we start an official owners' thread, here it is.

For the time being I've mounted this panel on the family room wall. The redecorating is pending (probably won't be happening too soon).



In the cabinet (which is the one that goes along with the PRO-710HD that I have) there is a Pioneer VSX-21TXH AVR, an Oppo BDP-103, HD Roku, a DirecTV DVR, and miscellaneous stuff (8-port network hub for instance). The surround sound is 7.1 with Klipsch speakers all around (RF-82s for the front pair).

The indentation on the right (with the plant) really hasn't served any purpose. It is like a closet without doors. The room is sunken a step but the indentation is not. We think it was supposed to be a wet bar in the original house planes. I plan to recess the equipment in there flush with the wall.

Here we are set up for calibration. The menus tend to get in the way of the camera so it helps to have a standard remote control for getting quickly in and out of those.

Picture Quality

As I mentioned elsewhere I am retiring a Pioneer Elite PRO-710HD rear projection TV and replacing it with this 84" 4K panel. So I am experiencing a whole new level of picture quality. I am not really in a position to critique it at least as to how it would compare to other high definition LED panels but I can tell you about it.

To start, let's go back a decade and a half to when the first large screen RPTVs were coming on the market. In shopping for a 64" RPTV you realized that the picture quality was such that you really needed to sit some 15 feet from those sets. You could count the horizontal scan lines. It was really unacceptable. Then we walked around the corner in the show room and were captivated by the Pioneer Elite RPTV. The picture was amazing. You could not see a single horizontal scan line even if you put your nose on the screen. The difference... for a large screen TV you need higher resolution and this was an High Definition TV at a point in time when there really wasn't any HD content. The TV performed the up-conversion (Pioneer called in Pure Cinema I believe). It's value was apparent regardless of the availability of native HD content. This was a must buy for us. It wasn't inexpensive.

End the flashback and come back to the present. For an 80 to 110 inch panel you really need to sit some 15 feet away or otherwise detect the presence of pixels. Now we have 4K or Ultra HD effectively doubling the number of pixels both horizontally and vertically, 4 times the HD 1080p resolution. In the absences of native 4K content the panel performs the up-conversion nicely. You can sit 3 feet from this panel and not detect pixels! Sit close if you want your own IMAX experience. The advantage is significant (at least for us) and it doesn't matter if you have 4K content or not. As with anything new it is not inexpensive as you know.

One of the common complaints in critiques of this panel has been about the edge back lighting. After a week with the LG 84LM9600 on our wall, I can tell you that if you set Black Level to Low and Local Dimming to Low the black is BLACK and the contrast ratio amazing. You cannot detect any edge lighting issue whatsoever. If I darken the room significantly and watch a widescreen movie with black borders at top and bottom, in some scenes I see a slight glow at the bottom left corner. Okay, you know, the light leaked all over the place in my RPTV and black was grey. That improved significantly if I took the time to clean the optics. So for me the back lighting issue is no issue at all.

The bigger problem from my perspective is with the video source, with a larger screen artifacts from video compression become more apparent. I can't get picky with the panel's picture quality. It is superb. Probably not the best there ever was, but excellent nevertheless. When arcs of color banding smear across the background of show in an HD Roku stream, that is bothersome. The CODECs are getting better but an option to get content with lossless compression would be worth something. My fear is that when 4K content becomes available the necessary compression with affect the ultra high definition experience that you are hoping for.

This LG panel comes with a YouTube App and YouTube has some 4K video available. I searched for "4K" and even though most are trailers and reviews, the video is amazing. But you know, I can't really tell if what I see is strictly 4K or not. It just looks perfect.

The bottom line for me, if I were going to put a larger screen in here, it needed to be higher resolution. The 4K does the job spectacularly. It was another must buy.

I have watched everything now from Blu-Ray movies to old episodes of Cheers. Regardless of the source and the original resolution of the video, I believe that the LG does a seriously good job in rendering the entertainment.

Bruce

Audio Sync

This is a common problem obviously. In searching for the solution you find a lot of people guessing. It would help if manufacturers would add just a little description with just a shred of evidence as to how something is supposed to work in their documentation. It is insulting actually as they go overboard in dumbing down the documentation clearly assuming that we do not have have the capacity to understand. They intentionally (at least I think intentionally) withhold the information, the logic, that you might need to problem solve or otherwise get the most out of your purchase. Let me describe what I have found relative to the 84LM9600. You can already guess that the documentation is useless.

So you are watching a movie which starts out great but after a while something doesn't seem right with close-up facial scenes and dialog. You realize that your surround sound is not synchronized with lip movement. Now that you have noticed this it becomes annoying and you are distracted from the plot. What is going on? How can you fix this?

The problem occurs because it takes time to move and process video frames from your HDMI cable to the display. That much you will read elsewhere. It also takes time to process the audio but generally not nearly as much. Inside the panel the manufacturer knows how much delay there is in their video presentation. There are timing signals that they can use for this. They can delay the associated sound appropriately so that from the internal speakers the audio is synchronized with the video no problem.

But if you run the audio through an external system, you add a variable to the equation that the display panel cannot automatically account for. If you run audio from the panel through an amplifier or receiver you can again delay the sound such that you can see the explosion on the screen before the concussion hits from your subwoofer. If you run the video through an A/V Receiver before it reaches the display (like I do), you will produce the sound before the image giving you the feeling that you know what is coming before you see it.

These delays are inevitable. They can reduce them with faster hardware and more efficient processing but they cannot eliminate them. It is not the length of your cable or the distance from your speakers. There are delays with both but those are the order of of microseconds or less. What you are experiencing though can be on the order of hundreds of milliseconds.

Alright, I obviously ran into this immediately. Having replaced a rear projection set (Pioneer PRO-710HD) with the LG 84LM9600 4K panel, I probably went from practically undetectable delay to what might be worst case (assuming that upconverting and displaying 4K is a lot more work than displaying standard HD).

Here's my set up:

Oppo BDP-103 Blu-Ray ====(HDMI)====> Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH AVR ====(HDMI)====> LG 84LM9600 Panel

The video image experiences a progressive delay. It starts out synchronized (well call it matched closely) but after several minutes it is clearly out of synchronization. After a half hour you have stop and reset something to realign the sound with the picture.

The LG Panel has a menu option to enable "Audio Sync". Further they give you the ability to adjust (plus or minus) the audio delay separately for the internal and SPDIF (external) speakers. The range is from -5 to +15. I am not sure of the units but my guess would be frames of video and that a positive setting further delays the audio.

This is useful if you are amplifying the audio output from the panel processing the sound after the panel. In this case you likely have a fixed delay in your audio system that you can now account for by adjusting the audio timing in this menu by a couple of frames (30 frames/sec assumed?) to the negative.

However this is NOT the adjustment that you need if you are extracting the audio before the panel and playing it through your surround sound system.

Now in the AUDIO PARAMETERS menu on the Pioneer receiver you can adjust the audio delay in tenths of a frame from 0.0 to 10.0 frames. This is a fixed delay and as I mentioned the sound to picture delay is progressive. It continually increases. If you are up for a challenge, and I tried this, you can keep adding delay as your movie progresses. That works but after a while you can actually hit the 10 frame limit of the setting. It is also annoying in that making any change to this parameter briefly interrupts the audio eliminating any stealth that you might have in mind in trying to hide your effort from your audience.

Any acceptable solution to this MUST be dynamic. This is such a major issue that you know there has to be the solution, somewhere... right?

So further down in the AUDIO PARAMETERs menu on the AVR there is a AUTO DELAY setting (actually A. DELAY) where you can turn this ON/OFF. In my case it was ON! Wait a minute! ON?? So what does this do then? It clearly isn't addressing the audio synchronization that I am seeing. But if you read the manual it seems to imply that the purpose of this is the synchronize the sound with the picture. It was clearly not doing that.

This is what they don't tell you anywhere. How can the AVR synchronize the audio with the picture? How does it know what you are seeing on the screen to do that? It needs some kind of feedback from the panel. What it needs is an audio feed from the panel even though you are not going to play that sound. It can use it automatically delay the processed surround sound audio to synchronize with the stereo audio from the TV (assuming that the panel manufacturer already has done that internally). That's how I would implement it. I can't find this in writing although maybe someone out there can post what they have read. So I decided to verify the hypothesis by connecting the panel's audio output back to the AVR.

In the SOUND SETTING menu on the LG 84LM9600 you can enable ARC. This enables an Audio Return Channel for the HDMI-1 connection. This is a new standard apparently where the panel can send its audio back to the video source. Hmm... why?... Well apparently to support any automatic auto delay function. In this menu you can also turn off the TV SPEAKER and enable external audio or set it to AUTO which detects if the HDMI is active I assume.

I enabled ARC and made sure that I had the best HDMI cable I own in use for the connection but to my disappointment the sound remained out of sync. The Pioneer VSX-21THX documention says nothing about any Audio Return Channel on the HDMI. This AVR predates that apparently.

The next step was to connect the optical audio output of the LG panel back to the AVR. I also made sure that the TV was pushing audio out of the digital optical connection by setting it to use "External Speakers" when I selected the HDMI input. And... BINGO!... synchronized sound!


With the LG 84LM9600 this can be either through the ARC function of the #1 HDMI connection or through the optical audio output. I assume that all of the new A/V Receivers will be compatible with this HDMI ARC function. If you have an older AVR with an AUTO DELAY feature then you will need to find another path back.

This appears to be the solution. I am testing it thoroughly by implementing the ultimate jinx and publicly posting it.

It would have saved me hours of frustration if they could have just described this requirement someplace. Hopefully, I can spare you the frustration.

Bruce

Program DirecTV Remote

At least for the RC64R remote the proper code for the LG 84LM9600 is 11423.

1. Set switch to TV
2. Press and hold both MUTE and SELECT until LED blinks twice
3. Enter code 1-1-4-2-3

The DVR if you have it on might put up a message about programming the remote which you can cancel out of.

Basically we rely on the MUTE and POWER functions especially when casually watching DirecTV (not needing surround sound). In this case we have the Component Video out from our (older) DirecTV DVR connected to the Component AV input on the LG panel. The DVR's HDMI meanwhile is routed through the AVR for more discerning viewing when desired.

By the way, everything from the DirecTV DVR has been rendered wonderfully on this 84" 4K panel.

Bruce

The Pioneer VSX-21TXH AVR isn't compatible with the 4K resolution. It doesn't pass the signal. This hasn't been an issue since, well, there is no 4K to pass. But should I want to set the Oppo BDP-103 to output 4K I do need to do as you say and connect it directly to the panel and use the other output to send audio to the AVR. I am not sure yet but I am thinking that I might have an issue with 3D and the AVR as well. I am going to find out soon. We plan to do some 3D viewing. I actually don't have any 3D content yet. So I will test this and will let you know.

I any event you still will need for the surround sound system to synchronize the audio. Is the Denon compatible with the Audio Return Channel (ARC) that is available on the LG HDMI-1 input? I assume it has a SYNC function of some sort.

Bruce

After CES 2011 I contacted the local audio dealer (the very same place where I bought my Pioneer Elite PRO-710HD some 14 years ago) and asked them to look into the reality of the 4K panels for me. They got back to me saying that we needed to check again in the Fall and that they wouldn't be available before then. Last September I touched base with them again and we started checking into it. Around the first of the year I stopped into the showroom interested in a pair of Klipsch Reference Series speakers. I was originally interested in the RF-7s but realized that they were way too much for the space so I ordered a pair of RF-82s. I asked them for a firm quote on the LG 84LM9600 delivered, mounted and calibrated. I wanted the bottom line and to see if they could give me a delivery date. I had also asked that when we did go ahead with the panel that they bring it to the showroom and set it up for us to see. My wife had asked that we not purchase it sight unseen. I offered to cover the expense if for some reason the sale would be interrupted. Of course there was no commitment until there was a quote.

They called me back a week later to let me know that the speakers were in and that the panel arrived that morning. They emailed me proof of life photos (see below).

Well we visited the showroom that weekend where we were sufficiently awed by the panel. I was handed a firm quote with a number surprisingly below what I had expected... below what you would expect. We signed the deal and put down the deposit the following Monday. Um... and meanwhile those Klipsch speakers added considerably to the quality of sound in the room.



The experience was what you should expect when purchasing high-end audio/video equipment from your local retailer who specializes in such things. I highly recommend them if you located anywhere in this part of the country. It was a very enjoyable experience which continues on... by the way.

I understand that the distributor had one panel become available from their first delivery which The Stereoshop grabbed. So that is why, I am guessing, that I didn't get the quote before they got the set. The one in the showroom was supposed to be mine but they decided to keep it since the distributor got in another 5 and quickly put one on hold for me. Apparently, there has been a lot of interest from customers in the store. I don't blame them. You can stand right next to the thing and images are like artwork/murals. So I got the second one in this part of Pennsylvania. I also hear that the distributor is moving them as fast as he gets them in.

The panel on edge is imaged here. Note that the base actually swivels.


Here is the panel. That is all reflections of the store and not image. It is not on.


This ships in a bolted together wooden crate. Inside of that is a cardboard box containing the panel in Styrofoam supports and a thermal blanket. It was very well packed.

This display panel excited everyone there most especially the employees. I think the ran every movie they had through it in 24/7 fashion. This is setup about 10 feet from the sales counter.

Bruce

With a quick glance at the manual for your Denon... it mentions a "Auto Lip Sync" function supported on the HDMI for the monitor/TV. That would have to be the Audio Return Channel. You would just need to make sure that you enable the ARC in the SOUND SETTING menu on the LG 84LM9600. Just because the ARC is a new HDMI standard it doesn't mean that it hasn't been in use before. It just wasn't standard. You know... standards are great because there are so many to choose from.

Otherwise you have a number of optical audio inputs and I would imagine that one might be usable for the audio feedback from the panel. It looks like the Denon is very nice unit. It has to have the synchronization mode. The missing piece of information seems to be fact that you need to provide the audio back from the monitor/TV/panel to give the unit something to use to synchronize.

My Pioneer VSX-21TXH in fact is not compatible with the HDMI audio return channel (auto lip sync) but luckily it finds the signal to use for synchronization on the optical audio input (that is after I knew to wire it from the panel).

Hopefully you will be good to go.

Bruce

A sensible thought but maybe it is Denon that you want to talk to.

I referred to the optical connection as a possible source of the feedback audio and NOT the channels that you would hear through your speakers. This is how my system is working right now. My AVR is directly decoding the audio from the Oppo and that is the surround sound (7.1) that I am getting. The AVR also receives the audio after the LG delays it through the optical connection. It is using this to determine how long to delay the originally decoded audio from the Oppo so as to synchronize the sound with the picture.

With this LG panel there a 2 sources of audio output that you can use to give your AVR the reference audio signal (NOT the playback sound). The LG supports the Audio Return Channel (ARC) through HDMI-1 and it has the digital optical audio output (SPDIF).

I beleive that the reference to Lip Sync Mode in the Denon PDF that I viewed is an indication that it may very well accept that ARC signal for that very purpose. This is what you are concerned about is it not? Denon can best answer that for you.

Bruce

I haven't had the opportunity. I had been thinking trying to come up with a way to some how quantify the video delays (e.g. in milliseconds). It would be great then to be able to say definitively what you could expect in each and every mode/combination. Because... you might tolerate a bit more delay for Dr. Mario than, say, Modern Warfair 1/2... eh?

*edit* To measure that perhaps I can use the two HDMI outputs from the Oppo BDP-103 set to Dual Mode. Take one cable to the 84LM9600 and the other to the HDFury2. I would need a photo-transistor held against the screen and a flashing test pattern. Then on an oscilloscope I could capture the Y component signal and the output from the photo-transistor to measure the delay between them (potentially pretty accurately). I don't know. I suspect that the HDFury2 has negligible delay. What do you all think about this approach?? There is probably some expensive gadget to do this for you.

Sorry... I am engineer.
Edited by bscloutier - 2/26/13 at 3:16pm