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Best Surround Processor Currently Available? - Page 5

Poll Results: Best Multi-Channel processor currently on the market?

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 12% (13)
    Classe SSP800
  • 9% (10)
    Bryton SP3
  • 0% (1)
    ADA Mach IV
  • 16% (17)
    ADA Mach IV+Trinnov
  • 21% (22)
    Datasat RS20i
  • 17% (18)
    Theta CB3 HDMI + Extreme Dacs
  • 7% (8)
    Krell Evolution 707
  • 9% (10)
    Mcintosh MX151
  • 10% (11)
    JBL Synthesis with SDEC 4500
  • 9% (10)
    Other (comment on your answer)
103 Total Votes  
post #121 of 288
3/3/13 at 7:31am
..
Edited by our martin - 3/4/13 at 8:56am
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post #122 of 288
3/3/13 at 9:31am
Thread Starter 
Martin- I like Krell but I have some concerns with their future after D'Agustino being pushed out and the lack of any recent release of anything high end. Announcing a $6k processor that looks like an Emotiva did not impress. What's your thoughts on that?
Edited by adidino - 3/3/13 at 10:36am
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post #123 of 288
3/3/13 at 9:42am
You mean the new av receiver i haven't heard that yet but it's supposed to be good..but i heard the music streamer with sabre 32 chips..it's up there with the best of them and i wouldn't say the nds with 555 power supply sounded any better.. i heard the krell music streamer with a roksan caspian amp with martin logan montis and the sound was, the only way i can describe the sound was the instruments sounded like a brass band playing at christmas! p.s the mcintosh mt10 uses sabre 32 chips so does the cypher 707 and oppo blue ray player!
Edited by our martin - 3/3/13 at 9:48am
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post #124 of 288
3/3/13 at 9:47am
Thread Starter 
I mean what's your thoughts on Krell's future in general.
Edited by adidino - 3/3/13 at 10:45am
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post #125 of 288
3/3/13 at 10:03am
They are making car audio now i don't think they are going anywhere and the new amps that dan's making..i think he took krell as far as they could go..never heard his new amps but he will never beat the sound of the evolution amps it's an impossibilty..but who knows never heard any of his new stuff!
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post #126 of 288
3/3/13 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

I mean what's your thoughts on Krell's future on general.

Looked at the back panel - the 707 is filled with legacy connections that are almost all not required, but I'm sure demand a lot of circuitry, design and cost. And only 4 hdmi inputs. Someone needs to follow Apples lead when they killed the floppy disk and then DVD drive. You'll alienate a small percentage of the public, but you have the freedom to create a more modern and innovative product.

I'm guessing most us could do without all the component connections, s-video ports, tape loop and VCR loop jacks...I've not followed krell but that must a design from some years ago.

Is their anything newer coming from them?
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post #127 of 288
3/3/13 at 10:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post



Is their anything newer coming from them?

The 707 has been out for some time. It's currently being handled similar to the way the Denon AVP was with component upgrades. The most recent announcement from Krell was the Foundation. Didn't look like it was anything special to me.

http://www.krellonline.com/foundation.html
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post #128 of 288
3/3/13 at 10:47am
I think the foundation is aimed at people who just want to buy the av receiver and let's say martin logan motion speakers and don't want to have to buy extra amps to power the speakers..
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post #129 of 288
3/3/13 at 11:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by our martin View Post

I think the foundation is aimed at people who just want to buy the av receiver and let's say martin logan motion speakers and don't want to have to buy extra amps to power the speakers..

The Foundation is a processor so amps are still required.

I think Krell is just aiming for the sub $6k market butI think it's a mistake. I'm guessing they are hoping to compete with McIntosh's MX121. They should've focused on developing something new and state of the art if they intend to be a player again. They're amps are top notch though...
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post #130 of 288
3/3/13 at 11:46am
I meant with martin logan powered speakers like electric motion..krell have brought less expensive home theatre speakers out but who knows..i know at one of the trade shows krell had them hooked up to martin logan speakers not sure which ones though.. i will have to "ask peter" he's the oracle..getting a few exclusives out of me today!
Edited by our martin - 3/3/13 at 11:53am
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post #131 of 288
3/3/13 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by our martin View Post

..I am not trying to put the rs20i down or anything..i think i have heard of tidy trax..i am signed to anjunabeats defected records and the ministry of sound.when i am recording at home i use access virus keyboards a korg m1000 records in 24/192khz it's just one touch record it's fed from a adl espirit dac/preamp..and a reactable with cdj2000s and nexus 900.. i use hd800 headphones with crystal piccolino balanced cable with balanced to ¼ adapter and clear audio concept turntables.. i use krell 150 s monoblocks(stereo pair) with b&w pm1 speakers and wilson benesch torus subwoofers(stereo pair)all cables are chord company sarum..i am opening a bar soon in soho new york city called trance nation which will have an anthem statement av reciever with ct700 speakers oppo blue ray player and sony 4k projector with no seperate amps..the movie night will be a free night on a wednesday..have to buy the drinks i am afraid..not an advertisement..i am just telling people a bit about myself.i am also opening a headphone shop on manhattans 5th avenue..already bought a warehouse in queens..will sell everything from a jays to stax sr009(orpheus upstairs but not for sale) plus dacs headphone amps turntables dj equipment a few tvs cds dvds blue ray concerts rare vinyl down stairs.. cds amps speakers upstairs..also be a 402e with a cypher and modulari speakers with the new sub hooked up to a fbi all connected with nordost cast and odin speakers cables(be upstairs)! be a mcintosh soho with mt10 in the shop downstairs so people can try before they buy.. this was supposed to open at christmas but because of the hurricane things were put back..p.s i haven't come on this thread to plug anything, i am just telling people what i know about high end audio and av equipment and that if you want to get your speakers to sound the best that you can it's got to be krell!

Sounds fabulous. Love the lounge ideas in NYC. I live in nj. Let me know when you open and I will definitely visit your new bar and lounge.
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post #132 of 288
3/3/13 at 12:11pm
Thanks..will do new jerseys not too far away..the shops with head-fi in mind and i will be screening reviews that people do in the shop on one of the samsung screens in timesquare!
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post #133 of 288
3/3/13 at 12:22pm
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post #134 of 288
3/3/13 at 3:48pm
Had Curt here over the weekend to "tune" my room and Trinnov. Excellent results IMHO. I have the MC Trinnov with the Oppo mod.
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post #135 of 288
3/3/13 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Had Curt here over the weekend to "tune" my room and Trinnov. Excellent results IMHO. I have the MC Trinnov with the Oppo mod.

How many channels do you have? Do you expand channels in the Trinnov? How do you go from Oppo S/PDIF to Trinnov AES/EBU?
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post #136 of 288
3/3/13 at 6:01pm
I don't see why there's a problem with krell adding lower priced products to balance out their lineup? It's exactly what Mcintosh did with the MX121, the new D100 dac, etc. It seems to me both companies have brand panache and recognize that the very high end is dying, and if they are to survive, they need some volume. So they hopefully bring their value prop to a younger cheaper audience and increase their customer base. Brand loyalty is a big thing in marketing. As with all things in the high end, we all start out with lower priced systems, then hopefully increase the quality along the way. So Krell smartly is bringing product to market that will expand their exposure and, hopefully, those new customers will ride up the ladder of Krell products in the future, much like someone goes from the B&W CM9 to the 804 Diamond to the 802 Diamond, or similarly with Sonus Faber, or now Mcintosh. The balancing act is to maintain the high end panache for the big money buyers, while also providing real quality at the lower price points. And heck, theyve been doing this on a limited basis for some time with their lower priced integrated amps (300i, 400xi, etc).

As for the 707, it's a fairly legendary product available to but a few. I don't think they need to do much there. The middle child, the S1200, gets little acclaim, yet the few reviews rave about it, and there are a few guys on WBF forum and Audio aficionado that have the S1200 in awesome systems that would expose lesser performance, and they absolutely love it's performance. In fact, one has tried the Bryston SP3 and declared them relatively equal and kept the Krell, and another says it compares favorably to his ARC Ref5. Pretty strong affirmation of the S1200's performance, given its a 4 year old design. Now, the S1200 is spartan, no doubt, but in the same way that the Classe SSP-800 is, and the Bryston SP3, which, other than more hdmi inputs, is the most spartan of all. Yet everyone is raving about the sound quality of the Bryston and for a long time on the Classe.

I don't want to appear to be a shill for the Krell, as I don't own one and I'm not even sure I'm going to buy it (I'm actually leaning towards the Classe mostly due to price). But for some reason, it just bothers me that Krell is greeting a bad rap for no good reason, especially when they really do seem to have some excellent products available, and within a wide range that offers something for everyone.
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post #137 of 288
3/3/13 at 6:27pm
Thread Starter 
Jeff- you bring up some valid points. My major concern with Krell is their future longer term. They've had a bit of a shaky past and a shrinking dealer network. I'm likely just being overly paranoid but I just don't want to make a large investment on a product only to find out they've checked out. Granted, this could happen to any brand name but manufacturers like Bryston, Mcintosh, ADA, Harman and Classe have been around for a long time and will likely continue to be around.
Edited by adidino - 3/4/13 at 11:08am
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post #138 of 288
3/3/13 at 6:53pm
Well, if and when I make a move in the future, I would need at least 11.x, so Krell's current offerings would be out. However, if they are using ESS Sabre DACs in any manner like McInotsh is in the D100, which sounds so wonderful, I'd be curious to hear one just for giggles..
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post #139 of 288
3/3/13 at 7:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised.
I really don't understand the thoughts behind this? They released the expansion card which will be here in a few weeks and a I am told they have a few other things they are going bring into the RS20i, would it not make sense that once they are in the machine that they would want someone to do a review and one of reasons why they have not moved forward on a review yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I think this thread is indicative as to why.

I don't see how it is? DataSat has delivered on all of its promises so far. Base management, the new Expansion card and has addressed a lot of peoples ideas on how to make the machine a better one via the firmwares upgrades. What exactly have they promised and not delivered on so far? I am not one to go around defending a company, but I don't see how your claims are warranted.
Edited by JapanDave - 3/3/13 at 7:16pm
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post #140 of 288
3/3/13 at 7:21pm
Thread Starter 
Dave,

Had you been present during our attempts to experience a successful audition, you would understand the concern. I'm not personally trashing the product itself. I haven't even heard it working technically. I have no doubt they will continue to delivery on things the officially announce for as long as they decide they want to be in the home consumer market. However, Datasat needs to take a look at their dealer network and ensure this processor is auditioned in an appropriate environment and by dealers that fully understand the product. This is not a processor I was willing to blind buy.
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post #141 of 288
3/3/13 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I really don't understand the thoughts behind this? They released the expansion card which will be here in a few weeks and a I am told they have a few other things they are going bring into the RS20i, would it not make sense that once they are in the machine that they would want someone to do a review and one of reasons why they have not moved forward on a review yet?
I don't see how it is? DataSat has delivered on all of its promises so far. Base management, the new Expansion card and has addressed a lot of peoples ideas on how to make the machine a better one via the firmwares upgrades. What exactly have they promised and not delivered on so far? I am not one to go around defending a company, but I don't see how your claims are warranted.

Dave

Our two demos sounded like its worth $1,800 not $18,000...and at the moment there seems to be no other viable option to hear it anywhere else in the region nor a good understanding why these two demos, Datasat configured, sounded so poor.

It's not bashing, but frustration, and bewilderment that if Datasat is trying to be viable and grow their base, starting with iron-clad knock-out demos in the largest metro in the US should be assured.
Edited by thrang - 3/3/13 at 8:39pm
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post #142 of 288
3/3/13 at 8:19pm
Noting beats Meridian 861, now with v8..
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post #143 of 288
3/3/13 at 9:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Jeff- you bring up some valid points. My major concern with Krell is their future longer term. They've had a bit if a shaky past and a shrinking dealer network. I'm likely just being overly paranoid but I just don't want to make a large investment on a product only to find out they've checked out. Granted, this could happen to any brand name but manufacturers like Bryston, Mcintosh, ADA, Harman and Classe have been around for a long time and will likely continue to be around.

Yeah, I admit, the shrinking dealer network is a bit worrisome. Now you've got me thinking about this lol! I wish there was some way to investigate this, ie, revenues going up or down, design team still there, whats up with dealers? Anyways, can't wait to hear your opinion of the Bryston.
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post #144 of 288
3/4/13 at 2:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Dave,

Had you been present during our attempts to experience a successful audition, you would understand the concern. I'm not personally trashing the product itself. I haven't even heard it working technically. I have no doubt they will continue to delivery on things the officially announce for as long as they decide they want to be in the home consumer market. However, Datasat needs to take a look at their dealer network and ensure this processor is auditioned in an appropriate environment and by dealers that fully understand the product. This is not a processor I was willing to blind buy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Dave

Our two demos sounded like its worth $1,800 not $18,000...and at the moment there seems to be no other viable option to hear it anywhere else in the region nor a good understanding why these two demos, Datasat configured, sounded so poor.

It's not bashing, but frustration, and bewilderment that if Datasat is trying to be viable and grow their base, starting with iron-clad knock-out demos in the largest metro in the US should be assured.
Ahh, I see. What happened? Why was it so bad?
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post #145 of 288
3/4/13 at 3:29am
Krells uses sabre 32 chips on all of it's high end products..555 cypher and the evolution 707 use these chips and now the new music streamer comes with an optional sabre32 dac..they are four different types of sabre chips..sorry for the paste but the link wouldn't go on..Audio DAC Solutions

The SABRE32 Reference audio DAC series is the world’s highest performance 32-bit audio DAC solution targeted for consumer applications such as Blu-ray player, audio pre-amplifier, A/V receiver and professional applications such as recording systems, mixer consoles and digital audio workstations. With ESS patented 32-bit Hyperstream™ DAC architecture and Time Domain Jitter Eliminator, the SABRE32 Reference Stereo DAC delivers an unprecedented DNR of up to 135dB and THD+N of -120dB, the industry’s highest performance level that will satisfy the most demanding audio enthusiasts.

Device Description Package DNR (dB) THD (dB) I2S/DSD/SPDIF Input
ES9018 SABRE32 Reference 32-bit 8-Channel Audio DAC 64LQFP 135 (mono)
133 (stereo)
129 (8ch) -120 Yes
ES9012 SABRE32 Reference 32-bit Stereo Audio DAC 64LQFP 133 -120 Yes
For information about samples or product datasheets, please contact your local ESS Sales Representative.



The ES9016 SABRE32 Ultra DAC is the latest addition to the world’s highest performance and critically acclaimed SABRE32 DAC family. With ESS patented 32-bit HyperstreamTM DAC architecture and Time Domain Jitter Eliminator, the ES9016 SABRE32 Ultra DAC delivers spectacular music with an unsurpassed sound stage, with up to 128dB dynamic range and 0.0003% (-110dB) total harmonic distortion, and free from clock jitter common in digital audio systems.

Device Description Package DNR (dB) THD (dB) I2S/DSD/SPDIF Input
ES9016 SABRE32 Ultra 32-bit 8-Channel Audio DAC 48-LQFP 128 (2ch)
124 (8ch) -110 Yes
For information about samples or product datasheets, please contact your local ESS Sales Representative.

With Integrated 2Vrms Driver

The SABRETM DAC with integrated ground-centered 2Vrms driver operates from a single 3.3V power supply to deliver pop-free audio with 112dB of dynamic range, the highest performance of its class. With bill of materials reduced to just a few passive components externally, audiophile sound and quality are now accessible and affordable to any consumer audio products.

Device Description Package DNR (dB) Pop-Free Power Supply
ES9023 SABRE Premier Audio DAC with integrated 2Vrms Driver 16-SOP 112 Yes 3.3V
For information about samples or product datasheets, please contact your local ESS Sales Representative.


The SABRE Audio DAC Series is the world’s first 8-channel audio DAC solution to bring true professional digital audio to the mass consumer home entertainment market, setting a new standard for high quality audio performance in a cost effective, compact, easy to use form factor for today’s most demanding digital audio applications.

Device Description Package DNR (dB) THD (dB) I2S/DSD/SPDIF Input
ES9008 SABRE Reference Audio DAC 64LQFP 134 (mono)
128 (8ch) -118 Yes
ES9006 SABRE Premier Audio DAC 48LQFP 120 -102 Yes
For information about samples or product datasheets, please contact your local ESS Sales Representative.
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post #146 of 288
3/4/13 at 6:24am
While I have not heard the Krell units (nor ever owned Krell gear), the Meridian 861v6 is a very special piece, as is the Trinnov section of the new ADA Reference. No knocks on Krell, but both Meridian and ADA/Trinnov clearly know how to produce world-class digital and analog stages.
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post #147 of 288
3/4/13 at 6:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by our martin View Post

Krells uses sabre 32 chips on all of it's high end products..555 cypher and the evolution 707 use these chips and now the new music streamer comes with an optional sabre32 dac..they are four different types of sabre chips..sorry for the paste but the link wouldn't go on..Audio DAC Solutions

The SABRE32 Reference audio DAC series is the world’s highest performance 32-bit audio DAC solution targeted for consumer applications such as Blu-ray player, audio pre-amplifier, A/V receiver and professional applications such as recording systems, mixer consoles and digital audio workstations. With ESS patented 32-bit Hyperstream™ DAC architecture and Time Domain Jitter Eliminator, the SABRE32 Reference Stereo DAC delivers an unprecedented DNR of up to 135dB and THD+N of -120dB, the industry’s highest performance level that will satisfy the most demanding audio enthusiasts.

Device Description Package DNR (dB) THD (dB) I2S/DSD/SPDIF Input
ES9018 SABRE32 Reference 32-bit 8-Channel Audio DAC 64LQFP 135 (mono)
133 (stereo)
129 (8ch) -120 Yes
ES9012 SABRE32 Reference 32-bit Stereo Audio DAC 64LQFP 133 -120 Yes
For information about samples or product datasheets, please contact your local ESS Sales Representative.



The ES9016 SABRE32 Ultra DAC is the latest addition to the world’s highest performance and critically acclaimed SABRE32 DAC family. With ESS patented 32-bit HyperstreamTM DAC architecture and Time Domain Jitter Eliminator, the ES9016 SABRE32 Ultra DAC delivers spectacular music with an unsurpassed sound stage, with up to 128dB dynamic range and 0.0003% (-110dB) total harmonic distortion, and free from clock jitter common in digital audio systems.

Device Description Package DNR (dB) THD (dB) I2S/DSD/SPDIF Input
ES9016 SABRE32 Ultra 32-bit 8-Channel Audio DAC 48-LQFP 128 (2ch)
124 (8ch) -110 Yes
For information about samples or product datasheets, please contact your local ESS Sales Representative.

With Integrated 2Vrms Driver

The SABRETM DAC with integrated ground-centered 2Vrms driver operates from a single 3.3V power supply to deliver pop-free audio with 112dB of dynamic range, the highest performance of its class. With bill of materials reduced to just a few passive components externally, audiophile sound and quality are now accessible and affordable to any consumer audio products.

Device Description Package DNR (dB) Pop-Free Power Supply
ES9023 SABRE Premier Audio DAC with integrated 2Vrms Driver 16-SOP 112 Yes 3.3V
For information about samples or product datasheets, please contact your local ESS Sales Representative.


The SABRE Audio DAC Series is the world’s first 8-channel audio DAC solution to bring true professional digital audio to the mass consumer home entertainment market, setting a new standard for high quality audio performance in a cost effective, compact, easy to use form factor for today’s most demanding digital audio applications.

Device Description Package DNR (dB) THD (dB) I2S/DSD/SPDIF Input
ES9008 SABRE Reference Audio DAC 64LQFP 134 (mono)
128 (8ch) -118 Yes
ES9006 SABRE Premier Audio DAC 48LQFP 120 -102 Yes
For information about samples or product datasheets, please contact your local ESS Sales Representative.

At $39 a pop, this type of technology is the great equalizer, not the great differentiator. It is a consumer mass market commodity. Anyone building a $1000 SSP can use this same DAC (if you use one per channel this becomes may be a $2500 SSP).

Also, MSB's take on this DAC is quite interesting.

http://www.msbtech.com/support/What_about_32_bit_DACs.php
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post #148 of 288
3/4/13 at 6:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

At $39 a pop, this type of technology is the great equalizer, not the great differentiator. It is a consumer mass market commodity. Anyone building a $1000 SSP can use this same DAC (if you use one per channel this becomes may be a $2500 SSP).

Also, MSB's take on this DAC is quite interesting.

http://www.msbtech.com/support/What_about_32_bit_DACs.php

Oppo 95 and 105 use Sabre as well.
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post #149 of 288
3/4/13 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

At $39 a pop, this type of technology is the great equalizer, not the great differentiator. It is a consumer mass market commodity. Anyone building a $1000 SSP can use this same DAC (if you use one per channel this becomes may be a $2500 SSP).

Also, MSB's take on this DAC is quite interesting.

http://www.msbtech.com/support/What_about_32_bit_DACs.php
Heres a thread you might like to read concerning the msb dac and orpheus.. [URL=http://Battle Of The Flagships (57 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: HifiMan HE-400 added 12/24/12 http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-57-headphones-compared-update-hifiman-he-400-added-12-24-12 … via @headfi]Battle Of The Flagships (57 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: HifiMan HE-400 added 12/24/12 http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-57-headphones-compared-update-hifiman-he-400-added-12-24-12 … via @headfi[/URL]
Edited by our martin - 3/4/13 at 7:10am
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post #150 of 288
3/4/13 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by our martin View Post

Heres a thread you might like to read concerning the msb dac and orpheus.. [URL=http://Battle Of The Flagships (57 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: HifiMan HE-400 added 12/24/12 http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-57-headphones-compared-update-hifiman-he-400-added-12-24-12 … via @headfi]Battle Of The Flagships (57 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: HifiMan HE-400 added 12/24/12 http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-57-headphones-compared-update-hifiman-he-400-added-12-24-12 … via @headfi[/URL]

I own the MSB DAC myself (Signature). Have not even upgraded the clock yet (will do so this month), and it already beats the crap out of anything else I have heard (previous reference was EMM Labs DAC2X). This level of performance is NOT achievable with any SSP based on standard DAC shipsets (including Krell). This is why I believe that by far the highest level of performace available in a MCH system is going the HTPC route (or modded universal player with full resolution digi out) and feeding a full resolution digital signal to a state of the art (set of) outboard DACs.
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