AVS › AVS Forum › Gaming & Content Streaming › Networking, Media Servers & Content Streaming › Life of Pi: iTunes vs. Vudu vs. Blu-ray (updated)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Life of Pi: iTunes vs. Vudu vs. Blu-ray (updated) - Page 3

post #61 of 95
3/4/13 at 10:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elario View Post

A hammer is just a tool, but if you use it to paint a fence then clearly you don't understand how to use it.

Im not having a go at you but your comparison is technically flawed.

I stand by those examples, but I agree there is an issue with sub-pixel sampling artifacts that make the technique not quite as ideal as I'd like it to be, and also because it does pick up the difference in sharpness as well as resolution which exaggerates the difference. It's not a perfect method, but what you see is, for all practical purposes, a confirmation of existing observations. You need to know what you are looking for, and what is an artifact - as you rightly pointed out.

Life of Pi, iTunes 1080p has more detail than 720p. Here's a good old fashioned mega-blow-up with forensic levels of sharpening applied. There's simply more to the 1080p image, you can see the soft edges from the 720p version that show up in the difference graphics. Case closed.


Edited by imagic - 3/4/13 at 11:53am
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #62 of 95
3/4/13 at 11:54am
Using photoshop difference filter is of no practical value in a video quality comparison.

It tells us that there is a difference but that's it. It doesnt tell us anything about that difference - if it is due to scaling artifacts, misalignment, compression artifacts in either image, higher level of detail etc. It doesnt tell us anything particularly relevant to the human visual system.

And that is another issue with some of your comparisons - boosting the contrast to make compression issues more readily apparent. Lossy video compression deliberately makes use of limations in the human visual system so if dark-area artifacts are not visible on a calibrated display, that is all that matters. Altering contrast/ or brightness to make these issues visible serves no useful purpose.

On the subject of scaling we don't even know the scaling algorithms you used or the native resolution of the source. I believe the iTunes 1080p video is not exactly 1920 px wide - can you confirm this?
Reply
Reply
post #63 of 95
3/4/13 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elario View Post

Using photoshop difference filter is of no practical value in a video quality comparison.

It tells us that there is a difference but that's it. It doesnt tell us anything about that difference - if it is due to scaling artifacts, misalignment, compression artifacts in either image, higher level of detail etc. It doesnt tell us anything particularly relevant to the human visual system.

And that is another issue with some of your comparisons - boosting the contrast to make compression issues more readily apparent. Lossy video compression deliberately makes use of limations in the human visual system so if dark-area artifacts are not visible on a calibrated display, that is all that matters. Altering contrast/ or brightness to make these issues visible serves no useful purpose.

On the subject of scaling we don't even know the scaling algorithms you used or the native resolution of the source. I believe the iTunes 1080p video is not exactly 1920 px wide - can you confirm this?

Any way you slice it iTunes 1080p is beating 720p when it comes to detail rendition in Life of Pi. As for the artifacts in the shadows, plenty of people see them, they are a real issue. A good TV won't leave anywhere for the artifacts to hide, you'll see them in the shadows. That's the whole impetus behind these comparisons, what got me started is how very much improved the shadow regions look these days. When it comes to video quality comparisons, we're not talking about raw footage for editing, we're talking about already mastered and compressed video being delivered through a known platform at a known resolution. Comparing the final, rendered frames is the proper approach.

In the examples that look deep into the shadows I don't boost the contrast, I only shift the gamma. Thank you for your input, I am always open to suggestions and constructive criticism. In this instance, I don't see your point. Collectively the observations all lead to the same conclusion - specifically for Life of Pi, iTunes 720p looks blurry compared to Blu-ray, Vudu HDX and iTunes 1080p. That's a fact and I'm not going to waste more time debating a fact.
Edited by imagic - 3/4/13 at 8:04pm
Reply
Reply
post #64 of 95
3/5/13 at 1:49pm
Here's an example of companies changing access as they please. I've had a Samsung D6700 3D player for a couple years. One of the apps included (to stream and/or "own") was BLOCKBUSTER. Although I've only used it a few times (streaming) the app was completely removed from the player a few weeks ago. I was told that it was removed from older players (2 years is old?) but remains on this year's models. Now, if I want the BB app (or IF I was dumb enough to purchase a movie to supposedly "own"), I'd have to buy a new player! (yes, I'm sure a purchased film might still be accessible on a computer or tablet...but, unless I'm on a plane, I'm not one of those who watches a movie on a 2 or 5-inch screen...just ludicrous.)

No one has any idea how these compamies will screw the consumer going forward. Blu-Ray is the only way to go. Purchasing BD mean you have multiple formats (BD, DVD, UV, and 3D) and you truly DO own the film (and with extras...no commentary tracks are found on Vudu, CunemaNow, iTunes, Amazon, etc.)...and for roughly a similar price that it would cost to buy a movie from a streaming service. How much of a no-brainer does anyone need?
Reply
Reply
post #65 of 95
3/5/13 at 4:21pm
Like I've said before: this download-only crap for UHD is a screw job waiting to happen. Gotta have competition... good competition.
Reply
Reply
post #66 of 95
3/5/13 at 5:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema13 View Post

Here's an example of companies changing access as they please. I've had a Samsung D6700 3D player for a couple years. One of the apps included (to stream and/or "own") was BLOCKBUSTER. Although I've only used it a few times (streaming) the app was completely removed from the player a few weeks ago. I was told that it was removed from older players (2 years is old?) but remains on this year's models. Now, if I want the BB app (or IF I was dumb enough to purchase a movie to supposedly "own"), I'd have to buy a new player! (yes, I'm sure a purchased film might still be accessible on a computer or tablet...but, unless I'm on a plane, I'm not one of those who watches a movie on a 2 or 5-inch screen...just ludicrous.)

No one has any idea how these compamies will screw the consumer going forward. Blu-Ray is the only way to go. Purchasing BD mean you have multiple formats (BD, DVD, UV, and 3D) and you truly DO own the film (and with extras...no commentary tracks are found on Vudu, CunemaNow, iTunes, Amazon, etc.)...and for roughly a similar price that it would cost to buy a movie from a streaming service. How much of a no-brainer does anyone need?

I'd love to know where I can get new-release Blu-rays that include the full package of 3D, Ultraviolet, Blu-ray, etc. for $15.00, because I have not seen that. Even when those discs go on sale, the price is usually between $20 and $25. I've repeatedly mentioned my love for 3D on Blu-ray, it's definitely one of the main reasons I still use the format. Besides, the streaming formats are also available as rentals, and there is a stronger argument to be made for renting a streaming/download than purchasing. Then again, Apple is not Blockbuster. I feel quite confident about buying movies from iTunes.
Edited by imagic - 3/5/13 at 5:53pm
Reply
Reply
post #67 of 95
3/6/13 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I'd love to know where I can get new-release Blu-rays that include the full package of 3D, Ultraviolet, Blu-ray, etc. for $15.00, because I have not seen that. Even when those discs go on sale, the price is usually between $20 and $25. I've repeatedly mentioned my love for 3D on Blu-ray, it's definitely one of the main reasons I still use the format. Besides, the streaming formats are also available as rentals, and there is a stronger argument to be made for renting a streaming/download than purchasing. Then again, Apple is not Blockbuster. I feel quite confident about buying movies from iTunes.

Occasionally, Best Buy gives out $5.00 coupons for old dvds. Using them, I've picked up IMMORTALS 3D, MIB 3D, and JOURNEY TO CENTER OF THE EARTH for $14.99. And, when it first came out, Target had AVENGERS 3D for $17.99. The most I've ever paid for a 3D release was $22.99 (PROMETHEUS).
Reply
Reply
post #68 of 95
3/6/13 at 12:59pm
Buying the BD doesn't mean you "own" the film. Remember the studios have been able to argue that you only bought the rights to play the film biggrin.gif
Reply
Reply
post #69 of 95
3/6/13 at 1:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Buying the BD doesn't mean you "own" the film. Remember the studios have been able to argue that you only bought the rights to play the film biggrin.gif

To own a movie would be to have the right to do what you please with it. Music, movies, software, and imagery... most of the time these things are all licensed.
Edited by imagic - 3/6/13 at 1:08pm
Reply
Reply
post #70 of 95
3/7/13 at 1:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

To own a movie would be to have the right to do what you please with it. Music, movies, software, and imagery... most of the time these things are all licensed.

Licensed to users to playback but not do what they please with it. I think Sony was arguing that with some PS3 games awhile back.
Reply
Reply
post #71 of 95
3/7/13 at 6:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

To own a movie would be to have the right to do what you please with it. Music, movies, software, and imagery... most of the time these things are all licensed.

You still own the physical media, so you have the right to loan it out, give it away, or resell it if you want to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Licensed to users to playback but not do what they please with it. I think Sony was arguing that with some PS3 games awhile back.

IIRC, before the PS3 was released, there was a rumor that Sony was going to keep games locked to user accounts. The same rumor is out there for the next XBox and the PS4.
Reply
Reply
post #72 of 95
3/7/13 at 7:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

You still own the physical media, so you have the right to loan it out, give it away, or resell it if you want to.
IIRC, before the PS3 was released, there was a rumor that Sony was going to keep games locked to user accounts. The same rumor is out there for the next XBox and the PS4.

For the PS4, that's all it was, a (false) rumor. http://www.ubergizmo.com/2013/02/ps4-will-allow-used-games-to-be-playable/

Now we see Apple making a move towards resolving other issues, like loaning and reselling digital downloads. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57573080-37/apple-could-let-you-sell-your-itunes-content-to-other-people/
Edited by imagic - 3/7/13 at 1:23pm
Reply
Reply
post #73 of 95
3/7/13 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

There's nothing to "agree to disagree" on here, the results for Life of Pi are obvious, iTunes 1080p has more detail then the 720p version. It's your call if you choose to believe otherwise. My familiarity with digital imaging is rather deep, I know the difference between detail and sharpness. I was not comparing "The Walking Dead" so I don't see how that image or that comparison is relevant here. If I do review The Walking Dead at some point, I'll run the same comparisons I do for movies, which will include the difference filter. It seems like you just want iTunes 720p to always be as detailed as 1080p and that's simply not the case.

Again, there is more "detail" in pics you are posting solely because of the increased resolution. Of course text is going to look sharper and background objects are going to be more in focus on the 1080p, it's inherent to the resolution. Put up a picture with a closeup of someones face, there is a good scene around the 10 minute mark. There is no difference in facial detail between the 1080p and 720p, if anything the 720p looks a little better due to not being bit-starved. Frankly I don't care who "wins". I don't have a dog in this fight. But after comparing hundreds of itunes tv shows and movies in 720p/1080p, the 720p has more detail 99% of the time, and that is proven with actual uncompressed, unmodified screen grabs. Not the downsized or mini pics you have been posting for all of these. Post the uncompressed, unmodified P frames in .png format to screenshotcomparison.com and then we can talk. Apple screwed their encodes by only increasing the bitrate 20% for an image that has more than 2x as many pixels. I'm extremely disappointing in their 1080p encodes and the methods they have taken to degrade them.
Reply
Reply
post #74 of 95
3/7/13 at 11:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Again, there is more "detail" in pics you are posting solely because of the increased resolution. Of course text is going to look sharper and background objects are going to be more in focus on the 1080p, it's inherent to the resolution. Put up a picture with a closeup of someones face, there is a good scene around the 10 minute mark. There is no difference in facial detail between the 1080p and 720p, if anything the 720p looks a little better due to not being bit-starved. Frankly I don't care who "wins". I don't have a dog in this fight. But after comparing hundreds of itunes tv shows and movies in 720p/1080p, the 720p has more detail 99% of the time, and that is proven with actual uncompressed, unmodified screen grabs. Not the downsized or mini pics you have been posting for all of these. Post the uncompressed, unmodified P frames in .png format to screenshotcomparison.com and then we can talk. Apple screwed their encodes by only increasing the bitrate 20% for an image that has more than 2x as many pixels. I'm extremely disappointing in their 1080p encodes and the methods they have taken to degrade them.

"Things change, whatever you've noticed in the past with iTunes 720p performing better than 1080p is simply not the case for Life of Pi. The examples are cropped from full-screen frame grabs displaying at 1080p, they not downsized or minipics." The format used is PNG, from beginning to end.


Beyond any reasonable doubt, iTunes 1080p is more resolute than 720p when it comes to Life of Pi. The bottom images are sharpened in Photoshop to highlight the difference in resolution.
Edited by imagic - 3/8/13 at 5:42am
Reply
Reply
post #75 of 95
3/8/13 at 3:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Things change, whatever you've noticed in the past is simply not the case for Life of Pi. All screen grabs are cropped and are 100% original pixels, they not resized. I am using PNG format.

Of course they are resized, otherwise the 720p shots would be much smaller than the 1080p ones.
Reply
Reply
post #76 of 95
3/8/13 at 5:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elario View Post

Of course they are resized, otherwise the 720p shots would be much smaller than the 1080p ones.

I'm talking about the actual screen grab. "I did not resize the screen grabs" remains an accurate statement, It is not my concern if iTunes has to scale a video before displaying it. It's functionally irrelevant what the actual native resolution of a movie is. I care about the final displayed image, scaled or not. That's what I am capturing because that's what people are going to be watching on their native 1080p projectors. The context of my statement is that I am not shrinking my examples, they are 100% crops of movies displaying on a 1080p screen.

I have edited the statement, for clarity. smile.gif

"Things change, whatever you've noticed in the past with iTunes 720p performing better than 1080p is simply not the case for Life of Pi. The examples are cropped from full-screen frame grabs displaying at 1080p, they not downsized or minipics." The format used is PNG, from beginning to end."
Edited by imagic - 3/8/13 at 5:43am
Reply
Reply
post #77 of 95
3/8/13 at 1:31pm
Post the actual unmodified, uncropped, un-sharpened, pictures of the same frame into this website. We can't make any reasonable comparisons from cropped pictures that are that small. Why do you refuse to do this? It's the most accurate way to compare encodes. I mean, I appreciate you doing these, but you're going about it totally the wrong way.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/11435/picture:1
Reply
Reply
post #78 of 95
3/8/13 at 1:52pm
Cool, hope everyone takes that into account when you post future comparisons. All that time taken to do these and you won't even post the full screen unmodified frames. Anything you do in the future should be taken with a grain of salt since we don't actually have proper screens to compare.
Reply
Reply
post #79 of 95
3/8/13 at 1:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Cool, hope everyone takes that into account when you post future comparisons. All that time taken to do these and you won't even post the full screen unmodified frames. Anything you do in the future should be taken with a grain of salt since we don't actually have proper screens to compare.

Right on. Your main concern is iTunes 720p vs. iTunes 1080p - these are the untouched PNG files, direct from iTunes. I do want to use every tool at my disposal. After checking the comparison using the full-sized screen shots and the mouse-over tool, my conclusion remains the same, for Life of Pi, iTunes 720p is handily beaten by 1080p, even in a facial close-up.

Screenshot Comparison: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12140

These are the screen shots that are being compared:




Edited by imagic - 3/8/13 at 2:26pm
Reply
Reply
post #80 of 95
3/8/13 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic 

Screenshot Comparison: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12140

Thanks, in that scene 1080p has more detail. Those are the kind of comparisons that I'm talking about. Really easy to tell the difference on mouse over. By the way, I never said 1080p can't be better than the 720p, I said 99% of the time the 720p has more detail because of the low bitrate on the 1080p. Glad to see one that is. I would be interested to see you do more of these in the future, or one with Skyfall and Argo if you have the time. I still haven't seen a TV show look better in 1080p besides animation. Maybe they are taking more time to encode movies or using better settings? Or maybe Life of Pi is just a really clean source so it can compress better? Who knows. Sorry I came off the way I did.
Reply
Reply
post #81 of 95
3/8/13 at 6:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Thanks, in that scene 1080p has more detail. Those are the kind of comparisons that I'm talking about. Really easy to tell the difference on mouse over. By the way, I never said 1080p can't be better than the 720p, I said 99% of the time the 720p has more detail because of the low bitrate on the 1080p. Glad to see one that is. I would be interested to see you do more of these in the future, or one with Skyfall and Argo if you have the time. I still haven't seen a TV show look better in 1080p besides animation. Maybe they are taking more time to encode movies or using better settings? Or maybe Life of Pi is just a really clean source so it can compress better? Who knows. Sorry I came off the way I did.

I will definitely use that tool as part of my future comparisons. I'll see about updating the older posts. Thanks again.
Reply
Reply
post #82 of 95
3/8/13 at 10:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

To all you streaming and download "pushers" biggrin.gif... just remember: when the studios fully control your access to their content and video rental stores, Best Buy, Amazon, and the like are cut out of the equation because there is no competition for physical media pricing... just think what will happen to the prices for owning movies... and what if they choose to cut off your ability to watch certain favorite titles in your virtual "collection?"

Vudu, for instance, already prices their movies (via streaming Pay-Per-View "rentals" or "owning") based on the quality of the video (and it's still lossy audio and less than Blu-ray video quality). I've seen them charge $6 or more a rental for certain titles to get the "quality" stream. I can go to the store and rent a Blu-ray for $1, $1.50, or $2. It's the same as renting a DVD. So, if you want the "good stuff" (4k rez.) it's more than likely going to cost you even more with downloading, though there is no added cost for package material, cases, or disc replication. Probably more than if there was a 4k disc to compete against.

Again, be careful what you wish for.

I just rent. These digital ownership things seem like they are kind of risky. That way, I watch it, enjoy it, and it's gone. However, I wouldn't think of renting a physical disk, as then I have to return it. With VUDU HDX, they handle it for me, and I get the best quality possible out of my Sharp 60" HDTV and Onkyo 7.1 surround.
Reply
Reply
post #83 of 95
3/9/13 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

I just rent. These digital ownership things seem like they are kind of risky. That way, I watch it, enjoy it, and it's gone. However, I wouldn't think of renting a physical disk, as then I have to return it. With VUDU HDX, they handle it for me, and I get the best quality possible out of my Sharp 60" HDTV and Onkyo 7.1 surround.

Except that "the best quality possible" for picture/sound is only on disc, Although HDX is a strong second.
Reply
Reply
post #84 of 95
3/9/13 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema13 View Post

Except that "the best quality possible" for picture/sound is only on disc, Although HDX is a strong second.

Not for a 60" TV at 9 feet... you can't tell the difference, and my screen is pretty decent sized for the distance I am away.
Reply
Reply
post #85 of 95
3/9/13 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

Not for a 60" TV at 9 feet... you can't tell the difference, and my screen is pretty decent sized for the distance I am away.

I'm only at 47" and I can certainly see the difference...they aren't major but still noticable...although I agree that most folks don't look at video with as critical an eye as many of us here;. But even if I couldn't see a video difference, I can definitely hear the audio difference.
Reply
Reply
post #86 of 95
3/9/13 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema13 View Post

I'm only at 47" and I can certainly see the difference...they aren't major but still noticable...although I agree that most folks don't look at video with as critical an eye as many of us here;. But even if I couldn't see a video difference, I can definitely hear the audio difference.

There's no way you can tell a difference if you did a blind test. There's just nothing to see.
Reply
Reply
post #87 of 95
3/17/13 at 8:16pm
Thread Starter 
**Update** I added Blu-ray screen grabs to the comparisons and BD did better than expected. Life of Pi deserves the perfect 100 score for 2D visuals awarded by Ralph Potts in the official AVS Blu-ray review. The overall visual quality of the movie is apparent in the online-distribution formats, but the Blu-ray rendition is so spectacular it should not be missed. Life of Pi is a movie that deserves to be watched in the highest quality format available, preferably in 3D.


Edited by imagic - 3/18/13 at 2:21pm
Reply
Reply
post #88 of 95
3/25/13 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

Not for a 60" TV at 9 feet... you can't tell the difference, and my screen is pretty decent sized for the distance I am away.

I have a 60" TV and sit about the same distance. Bluray vs streaming is so obvious. After i watched Skyfall on BD i put on the VUDU copy just to compare. The quality took a significant hit. VUDU had no detail in faces, clothing texture was soft etc. compared to the bluray version.

I don't know how some of you can stand streaming, other than convenience, over bluray. Never will i replace hard copy BD for streaming. Especially when it comes to watching high quality material in my HT. That goes for sound quality too.
Reply
Reply
post #89 of 95
3/25/13 at 7:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I have a 60" TV and sit about the same distance. Bluray vs streaming is so obvious. After i watched Skyfall on BD i put on the VUDU copy just to compare. The quality took a significant hit. VUDU had no detail in faces, clothing texture was soft etc. compared to the bluray version.

I don't know how some of you can stand streaming, other than convenience, over bluray. Never will i replace hard copy BD for streaming. Especially when it comes to watching high quality material in my HT. That goes for sound quality too.

How can I stand it? Well, it looks exactly the same as Blu-ray. It's sounds exactly the same as Blu-ray. It doesn't smell the same, since Blu-ray cases are made out of a different plastic than Ethernet cables, I'll give you that. Streaming is fantastic. With VUDU HDX, I get full Blu-ray quality delivered instantly, with Amazon and iTunes I get varying quality levels (I FAR prefer Amazon over iTunes, even with only 720p), but the same convenience, and an even lower price.
Reply
Reply
post #90 of 95
3/26/13 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

How can I stand it? Well, it looks exactly the same as Blu-ray. It's sounds exactly the same as Blu-ray. It doesn't smell the same, since Blu-ray cases are made out of a different plastic than Ethernet cables, I'll give you that. Streaming is fantastic. With VUDU HDX, I get full Blu-ray quality delivered instantly, with Amazon and iTunes I get varying quality levels (I FAR prefer Amazon over iTunes, even with only 720p), but the same convenience, and an even lower price.

I wouldn't say it looks the same and they don't have lossless audio.

Not paying for gimped A/V even if it is more "convenient."
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Gaming & Content Streaming › Networking, Media Servers & Content Streaming › Life of Pi: iTunes vs. Vudu vs. Blu-ray (updated)