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Sealed Dayton RSS460HO-4 build

post #1 of 53
2/24/13 at 8:58pm
Thread Starter 
Thought I'd post some pics of the build I'm working on, since people might find it interesting.

Details:
~4 cubic feet
Powered by 1 channel of an iNuke 3000 DSP (~600W RMS, 880W Peak)
Planning on no high pass filter.




It's... beautiful!

Using Dayton Provided T/S parameters:


Using Data-bass provided T/S parameters:









Internal bracing design



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post #2 of 53
2/24/13 at 9:00pm
Thread Starter 





Think I have enough braces?




The whole thing needs a pass with the flush-trim bit.

I actually made a 2nd baffle for the front. The first one is trash. I was rushing too much and it was about 1/8" too short on one dimension and the cutout was 1/16" too small- sub wouldn't even go in.

I really wanted to get it done fast, but when I rush things I do crappy work. So I forced myself to slow down and just do what I can to the standard it should be done.

Funny thing, a sub like this isn't for everyone. One of my coworkers (who has a crappy 10" sub)- "Why do you want something that big, my sub is plenty loud?".
I guess my answer is- no highpass filter until ~10 Hz (amp limit). Most commercial subs are highpassed from 25-45 Hz!
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post #3 of 53
2/24/13 at 9:48pm
looks like a pretty solid build you have in the works there. should be a good performer.

as for your co-worker, invite 'em over to hear it once you've got it set up.
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post #4 of 53
2/25/13 at 1:06am
I like the looks of that driver, it will beat the crap out of your co-workers 10" sub.
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post #5 of 53
2/25/13 at 5:04am
Is it safe to not us a high pass filter on this sub? Will it actually go down to 10hz?
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post #6 of 53
2/25/13 at 5:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Is it safe to not us a high pass filter on this sub? Will it actually go down to 10hz?

yes it will

Gorilla83 has 8 playing down to 5Hz
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post #7 of 53
2/25/13 at 6:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Is it safe to not us a high pass filter on this sub? Will it actually go down to 10hz?

It's a sealed box, so the cone exersion is controlled by the air-spring effect of the enclosed volume of air. Most sealed subs, with proper enclosure design, will play down really low. It's just a question of how loud it will be at that frequency, which is a function of raw displacement. This sub, being an 18" cone with more surface area than 2 12" subs and about 20mm of useful excursion, should perform pretty well for a single driver.

You can see some simulations in post #1. Notice that the cone excursion levels off near the left side of the frequency graph.

I forgot to mention that my Ridgid portable Tablesaw (R45161) stopped working yesterday. It's probably a bad switch, but I had to bring out the circular saw, which I am not a big fan of. It will probably take me a couple weeks to get the TS fixed. I am really happy that it happened so late into my build, and not right away.

Took the clamps off this morning. I was pressing on all the sides, no creaking or popping, so that is good.

*I have some small (~1/16") gaps aka air leaks on the back panel. Wood glue wasn't quite able to fill all the gaps. I might use my trusty expanding Gorilla Glue to attempt to solve this issue. It's too tight a space to get PL in there without applying it with my fingers.

*I need to find some 12 gauge spade connectors that fit my speakon jack.

When I can rememdy those 2 issues, it will be ready for testing. I can't wait to hook it up and listen to it, but again, I can't let my enthusiasm cause me to cut corners.

I'll probably use it in an "unfinished" state for a couple months until the weather warms up. Then it will be getting a full bondo treatment, and then sprayed with a paint gun, possibly black latex or Acrylic. I'd love to get a granite top for it. Maybe I can make one out of granite tiles.
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post #8 of 53
2/25/13 at 6:37am
Looking good. My sealed Dayton 18" HO is getting better everyday it seems. Yesterday I played the Flight of the Phoenix plane crash scene and watched magazines on my coffee table dance. (About 12ft from the sub, with my amp barely flashing -10db from clipping.

Also, I just can't believe how smooth and accurate this thing is.
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post #9 of 53
2/25/13 at 6:57am
Nice build and super nice looking bracing! That must have taken awhile to get all that bracing done. You can run that driver ALL day long on the inuke in that enclosure without a HPF. biggrin.gif
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post #10 of 53
2/25/13 at 7:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Looking good. My sealed Dayton 18" HO is getting better everyday it seems. Yesterday I played the Flight of the Phoenix plane crash scene and watched magazines on my coffee table dance. (About 12ft from the sub, with my amp barely flashing -10db from clipping.

Also, I just can't believe how smooth and accurate this thing is.

Yeah, that's the hope. It's not just about sheer output (although output is nice), but what really attracted me to this sub is some of the subjective comments I heard about the sound. I suppose to many people bass is bass, but I expect the SQ to be pretty good. And also that surround- is so huge. You just can't get a good feel for how big this thing is in person from looking at pictures. I also noticed the HO cone is very thick. It feels like you could punch the cone and not dent it.

The front baffle is 2 layers of 3/4" plywood, so it's 22 plys thick!
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post #11 of 53
2/25/13 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Yeah, that's the hope. It's not just about sheer output (although output is nice), but what really attracted me to this sub is some of the subjective comments I heard about the sound. I suppose to many people bass is bass, but I expect the SQ to be pretty good. And also that surround- is so huge. You just can't get a good feel for how big this thing is in person from looking at pictures. I also noticed the HO cone is very thick. It feels like you could punch the cone and not dent it.

The front baffle is 2 layers of 3/4" plywood, so it's 22 plys thick!

The sound quality is great. After building mine I started doing comparisons to my Bic F12. It was night and day in every aspect.

I never realized that the reason why I used to turn my F12 down was because it was fatiguing, not that it was too loud. It's strange really, but I would crank my music louder and turn it down after 20 minutes, because it just felt too loud. But after listening to music with my 18" HO I have yet to feel that it's too loud. It sounds just as good with my receiver at -50 as it does at -25. I hear no distortion.
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post #12 of 53
2/25/13 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

The sound quality is great. Comparisons to my Bic F12. It was night and day.
But after listening to music with my 18" HO I have yet to feel that it's too loud.
I hear no distortion.

and so it begins. biggrin.gif
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post #13 of 53
2/25/13 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

and so it begins. biggrin.gif

Ha. I have been wondering how a second would sound. I fear for my wallet's well-being..
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post #14 of 53
2/25/13 at 9:17pm
Thread Starter 
Listening to it right now! I had a list of 10 "tasks" to complete when I got home from work and I just flew through them. However, when I hooked it up, no sound. I pulled the driver and sure enough, I had hooked up the Neutrik Speakon terminal wrong. Re-installing the driver I stripped one of the screw holes. Note to self, do not use impact driver to install subwoofer screws, it's too powerful. It's OK though, I'm getting bigger and longer screws soon enough to mount the driver.

It seemed really quiet at first but appears to be getting louder as we speak. A couple first sound observations- feels very effortless and plays very deep. Also seems to have "punch" or "attack" reproducing my favorite upright basses on Jazz tunes. I know, all useless subjective comments. I've got one of four clip lights flickering and I'm occasionally making stuff rattle in the room. Can't really unleash the fury right now as my wife just went to bed.

Air Leak! Turns out there was a continuous void in the 2nd baffle piece, pressing on the cone revealed a small leak on the side of the front baffle. Easily solved with some wood glue in the crack.

Back Panel with 14 screws + speakon terminal:







DIY family... that's a 12" on top, 6" to the right...




Edited by djkest - 2/25/13 at 10:30pm
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post #15 of 53
2/26/13 at 9:31am
Looks good! Glad to hear someone else mentioning SQ of bass as opposed to just spl or extension. I am getting ready to start my own build of multiple sealed 18"ers and have been waiting to see if anyone can give some opinions of sound quality between the Dayton RSS460HO and the Stereo Integrity 18. I want something that goes deep but also is tight, with minimal ringing or "overhang". I am super critical of the musicality of the subwoofer. So much so that I sold my pair of JTR Captivators because they didn't sound "right" to me on all kinds of music. A decent HT subwoofer is not that hard to find but finding one that will suit an audiophile's ear is what I'm looking for. I wish someone would address these 2 drivers in those terms.
Good luck in finishing and fine tuning your project!
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post #16 of 53
2/26/13 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkwitz Riley View Post

Looks good! Glad to hear someone else mentioning SQ of bass as opposed to just spl or extension. I am getting ready to start my own build of multiple sealed 18"ers and have been waiting to see if anyone can give some opinions of sound quality between the Dayton RSS460HO and the Stereo Integrity 18. I want something that goes deep but also is tight, with minimal ringing or "overhang". I am super critical of the musicality of the subwoofer. So much so that I sold my pair of JTR Captivators because they didn't sound "right" to me on all kinds of music. A decent HT subwoofer is not that hard to find but finding one that will suit an audiophile's ear is what I'm looking for. I wish someone would address these 2 drivers in those terms.
Good luck in finishing and fine tuning your project!

You sound just like me! I loved my dual Caps for movies but sold them last year and bought dual Submersives for the IMO better sound quality for music. Recently I was able to compare the Submersive and dual opposed Dayton HO 18, here is a link of that:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1407184/carps-basement-hide-out/180#post_22761841


I bought 8 SI 18" drivers since I had read that the sound quality is the same. I have since read that a couple of people ever so slightly preferred the Daytons which worries me a bit since I'm very picky with bass for music. I have my 8 flatpacks and am set to go here in the next few days so pretty soon I'll know how the SI's sound compared to the Submersive.

I was floored with the SQ of the Daytons, I never thought I'd like anything as much as the Submersives.
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post #17 of 53
2/26/13 at 12:14pm
+1 on the SQ of the daytons - IMO it would be hard to do much better in that department. I've heard the SIs as well side by side, but really haven't done extensive listening with them just yet. I have 4 of the SI drivers laying around but have yet to build boxes for them. smile.gif
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post #18 of 53
2/26/13 at 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkwitz Riley View Post

I want something that goes deep but also is tight, with minimal ringing or "overhang". I am super critical of the musicality of the subwoofer.

This has as much to do with the enclosure and room it's being placed in as it does with the driver itself.

That being said, either of these drivers is more than capable of providing what you ask for. smile.gif
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post #19 of 53
2/26/13 at 1:23pm
Djkest...I am really looking forward to your listening impressions of your sub. I have subs right now that are populated with Dayton HF 15's & 12's and the SQ is very good. That is why I was leaning toward the Dayton HO18. If the SQ is even close it should be awesome! My room is huge 25 x 35 x 17'H and open to other areas so I was going to try sealed multiple 18's to try to fill the space, yet have the 'tight' sound I want. I'm doing 8 18s in 2 cabinets (like popalock's but I'm keeping the cabinets vertical...and only 2 cabinets!) driven by 2 CV-5000's in mono. My current Dayton subs will be moved to rear sub duty, powered by a Crown K2.
At 8 drivers the SI's would definitely save me some $$$, but I won't do it if I lose out on fidelity...in the slightest degree. Also didn't know if there is a sonic advantage to keeping all of the subs with the Dayton "timbre". Probably more important with higher frequencies.
Hey don't mean to HJ your thread, just real interested in peoples listening impressions of their SI and Dayton 18 builds!
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post #20 of 53
2/26/13 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkwitz Riley View Post

so I was going to try sealed multiple 18's to try to fill the space, yet have the 'tight' sound I want.

Once again, "tight" has nothing to do with sealed vs ported. You are inferring that you can only have a "tight" sound with sealed drivers, which certainly isn't the case.

To fill that large of a space with a sealed setup you are going to need a lot of drivers, and a lot of power. I think there might be better options for you, IMO.
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post #21 of 53
2/26/13 at 1:53pm
You misunderstood me...I didn't mean to suggest that ported designs cannot sound tight. I just said that I was planning a sealed build, and hoping to acheive a tight sound. My current subs are passive radiator designs and acheive this. The Captivators didn't seem to hit the mark for me so my next attempt was going to be a sealed design. I thought that perhaps the air-spring of the sealed enclosure might help to control a large 18" driver. I seem to like the sound of sealed drivers better than ported designs in most cases....that's all.
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post #22 of 53
2/26/13 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkwitz Riley View Post

I just said that I was planning a sealed build, and hoping to acheive a tight sound.

Well the driver is quite capable, is your room? wink.gif
Quote:
I thought that perhaps the air-spring of the sealed enclosure might help to control a large 18" driver.

It does. No need for a high pass unless you build too large of an enclosure, or apply too much power.
Quote:
I seem to like the sound of sealed drivers better than ported designs in most cases....that's all.

An identical driver in a proper enclosure will be indistinguishable SQ wise between a ported or sealed design. wink.gif
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post #23 of 53
2/26/13 at 3:03pm
That is true. I've experienced this with two svs subs. The pb13-ultra and the sb13-ultra. Sounded exactly the same, and with all ports open. Just more low end output with the ported one.
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post #24 of 53
2/26/13 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Once again, "tight" has nothing to do with sealed vs ported. You are inferring that you can only have a "tight" sound with sealed drivers, which certainly isn't the case.

To fill that large of a space with a sealed setup you are going to need a lot of drivers, and a lot of power. I think there might be better options for you, IMO.

To say it has "nothing" to do with it might be a stretch. It is proven that sealed alignments have lower group delay than bass-reflex alignments. How audible that additional group delay is open for debate. With that said, everyone is different, but I have never heard a BR sub to sound as "tight" as a sealed sub even when the same driver and amp are used, and I have heard some good ones. There are two many factors involved for me to say that sealed will always be tighter in the same exact circumstances. Perhaps I just haven't listened to the right combination, but my own personal experience hasn't allowed me to say otherwise. Nor have I seen any measurements showing exactly the same amount of group delay in both alignments with the same driver.

It seems like you have some sort of agenda here to dispute this guy's own personal opinion, and much of what you say is nothing more than opinion as well.
Edited by brianjb - 2/26/13 at 5:22pm
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post #25 of 53
2/26/13 at 3:53pm
I was part of a blind subwoofer GTG that included 6 different subs some ported, some sealed. There were something like 10 participants including me and we guessed not only which sub we thought was playing but if we thought it was ported or sealed. We were not close to being right, I don't think we did any better than if we would have just flipped a coin.

Ha, that said I prefer the sound of the Seaton Submersive to all other ID subs I've heard and it's sealed so I don't know... I did pick it out of that line up at the blind GTG as well.
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post #26 of 53
2/26/13 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianjb View Post

To say it has "nothing" to do with it might be a stretch. It is proven that sealed alignments have lower group delay than bass-reflex alignments even in the upper frequencies. How audible that additional group delay is open for debate. With that said, everyone is different, but I have never heard a BR sub to sound as "tight" as a sealed sub even when the same driver and amp are used. Perhaps I just haven't listened to the right combination, but my own personal experience hasn't allowed me to say otherwise. Nor have I seen any measurements showing exactly the same amount of group delay in both alignments with the same driver.

And Monster Cables improve my sound stage and add details I've never heard before with my other cables. cool.gif
Quote:
It seems like you have some sort of agenda here to dispute this guy's own personal opinion, and much of what you say is nothing more than opinion as well.

You caught me. Considering I'm running a sealed setup now, I certainly have something to gain by pushing ported. rolleyes.gif Maybe I have stock in subwoofer ports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I was part of a blind subwoofer GTG that included 6 different subs some ported, some sealed. There were something like 10 participants including me and we guessed not only which sub we thought was playing but if we thought it was ported or sealed. We were not close to being right, I don't think we did any better than if we would have just flipped a coin..

This^^^
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post #27 of 53
2/26/13 at 4:11pm
I think BA's point was that the members room is huge so ported may be better for him than 25 sealed subs and it will not negatively effect sound quality.
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post #28 of 53
2/26/13 at 4:13pm
Quote:
You caught me. Considering I'm running a sealed setup now, I certainly have something to gain by pushing ported. Maybe I have stock in subwoofer ports.

I just said that it seemed that way. I never said that you were. I obviously have no idea what your motives are, but I certainly can develop a perception about what they are true or otherwise.
Quote:
And Monster Cables improve my sound stage and add details I've never heard before with my other cables.

What does any of this have to do with crappy cables?

The blind gtg really proves nothing about there being a difference in how "tight" each alignment sounds unless that gtg had two subs, one in each alignment, with the same driver, EQ'd to the same output level, in the same room, in the same exact position, with each listener in the same position.

The only facts we have about how "tight" a sub sounds is that studies show it is related to group delay, but not necessarily the only factor. We also know that some people cannot hear differences in group delay at lower frequencies, but at what point that begins is different for every person. Anything beyond that is purely speculation.
Edited by brianjb - 2/26/13 at 4:20pm
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post #29 of 53
2/26/13 at 4:34pm
A low tuned bass reflex cabinet will have just as low of group delay as a sealed sub until the port/pr takes over the output. For music, which is almost completely above 30hz, the difference isnt there.
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post #30 of 53
2/26/13 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianjb View Post


The blind gtg really proves nothing about there being a difference in how "tight" each alignment sounds unless that gtg had two subs, one in each alignment, with the same driver, EQ'd to the same output level, in the same room, in the same exact position, with each listener in the same position.

*sigh* Do you post under the username Beeman as well? cool.gif
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