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NIB Kuro Sig 141 from dealer friend or ZT60? Need help deciding.

post #1 of 96
2/25/13 at 10:46am
Thread Starter 
Hello! I have a friend who is a dealer and I trust him. He’ll sell me a new in the box Sig 141 for $3495 plus taxes. There is no warranty. But he will give me 3 days to declare it DOA for a full refund.

That’s a hell of a deal.

But then I’m reading the 65ZT60 should probably reach 141 black levels and be priced at about $3500.

What to do? All feedback appreciated. I have a quality problem I know and probably can’t go wrong and probably am asking too much since the ZT60 is still an unknown except for staged eye ball views but do value the opinions of the many smarter than me members of this forum. smile.gif

PS- Got a 65VT50 right now so I'm not really hurting....just lacking a bit in some ways from my 111fd.
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post #2 of 96
2/25/13 at 11:04am
Man, that is a tough decision. I have a 141FD and absolute still love it (bought it in 2008 when it first came out). The reason this is a difficult decision is because you are dealing with an unknown, and an unknown from a company that has a history of fixing an issue and breaking another (ex. Panasonic 50 series plasmas improving black level and then making it more IR prone. 30 series Panasonic, good black level out of the box, however it deteriorated pretty quickly after that.). You're definitely taking a chance either way, and I'm trying to think what I'd do in your situation. On the one hand, you have a fantastic display confirmed (141FD), and on the other hand you have the potential for an equally fantastic display WITH a warranty and the option for 3D.

Man, that's a tough one. I'd probably just buy the 141FD. You know what they say, "a bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush."
Edited by LaoChe - 2/25/13 at 12:49pm
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post #3 of 96
2/25/13 at 11:14am
Thread Starter 
I wasn't aware that Panny has a history of fixing one issue and creating another. I figure this will be my last purchase until oled arrives AND come down in price.

I appreciate you taking the time to post your thoughts.
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post #4 of 96
2/25/13 at 12:45pm
No problem.

And I'll also say this, I have no problems waiting for an OLED 4K set with my 141FD. smile.gif
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post #5 of 96
2/25/13 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post

No problem. I did have to make a quick correction in my last post. In one of my examples I mentioned the 50 series which was a mistake. I meant to use 30 series, so I corrected that part. Sorry if I caused some confusion. The 50 series Panasonic isn't out yet so it could be that this the year Panasonic gets everything right. The problem is, you'll have to wait and see. smile.gif
it is, 60 is due:)
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post #6 of 96
2/25/13 at 1:33pm
Thread Starter 
Do you think going from a 65" to a 60" would be a startling difference?
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post #7 of 96
2/25/13 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Hello! I have a friend who is a dealer and I trust him. He’ll sell me a new in the box Sig 141 for $3495 plus taxes. There is no warranty. But he will give me 3 days to declare it DOA for a full refund.

That’s a hell of a deal.

But then I’m reading the 65ZT60 should probably reach 141 black levels and be priced at about $3500.

What to do? All feedback appreciated. I have a quality problem I know and probably can’t go wrong and probably am asking too much since the ZT60 is still an unknown except for staged eye ball views but do value the opinions of the many smarter than me members of this forum. smile.gif

PS- Got a 65VT50 right now so I'm not really hurting....just lacking a bit in some ways from my 111fd.

Why wouldn't pioneer honor the warranty if you are buying from a dealer? Sounds like a good price though for NIB. The ZT60 looks like it will be an amazing set as well.
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post #8 of 96
2/25/13 at 3:14pm
Thread Starter 
Simply because it's been out of production for 3 years. I appreciated the honesty from the dealer though. No warranty from Pioneer but he'll give me DOA return rights.
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post #9 of 96
2/25/13 at 3:39pm
ZT60 all day.

AT BEST the 141 MIGHT have better blacks (by a small margin) and they may be basically the same. It will have no 3D or apps, it will be 5" smaller, and have a VERY short warranty. What would you do if the 141 failed for some reason in 3 months? If you buy a ZT60 at Best Buy you can have it warranteed for up to 5 years (and that covers burn in BTW). The Kuro is a great set but at this point the risks outweigh the reward of a POTENTIAL (but not guaranteed) of slightly deeper black.
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post #10 of 96
2/25/13 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Hello! I have a friend who is a dealer and I trust him. He’ll sell me a new in the box Sig 141 for $3495 plus taxes. There is no warranty. But he will give me 3 days to declare it DOA for a full refund.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Simply because it's been out of production for 3 years. I appreciated the honesty from the dealer though. No warranty from Pioneer but he'll give me DOA return rights.

if it's NIB and the dealer is an authorized Pioneer Elite Dealer, it should come with a warranty still.. I know there are a few Dealers who had them warehoused and only sell/sold (for premiums) to their custom install clients only and the warranty is still valid.

You may want to give Pioneer a call (again, the dealer must be or have been a Pioneer Elite Authorized Dealer).
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post #11 of 96
2/25/13 at 3:53pm
Thread Starter 
turbe I did check with Pioneer. It was confirmed that there is no warranty.
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post #12 of 96
2/25/13 at 4:07pm
did Pioneer ask for the Dealer's name from you?
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post #13 of 96
2/25/13 at 4:24pm
Thread Starter 
I'm confused...I was simply asking for help with a decision turbe and now I find myself being asked to answer questions that aren't really relevant to my original post. I'd like to get back on topic as it's clear I won't get a warranty.
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post #14 of 96
2/25/13 at 4:29pm
I don't think he's trying to derail, Glash, and is just trying to get to the bottom of the (lack of) warranty issue with the Pio. No one can say for sure what is the better decision until the ZT60 is out in the wild, but the current lack of warranty doesn't favor the 141 decision. That said, you shouldn't have any problems, since Pioneer had a lower defective rate than even Panasonic when they were still in the TV bidness.
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post #15 of 96
2/25/13 at 4:36pm
Instead of asking which one to buy why don't you ask yourself which one you would regret NOT buying? sounds silly but spending that amount of coin on something can cause some bad regret. weigh the pros and cons for yourself (screen size, bezel design and dimensions, warranty, etc.). We will all give you opinions but in the end it's yours that matters most. I would rather have a slightly lower black levels (if they don't match the Kuro when it comes out) but a 5 inch larger screen. Would you rather have a "potentially" better picture but smaller screen? Can you afford to buy a new tv if it breaks? Are replacement/repairs available?
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post #16 of 96
2/25/13 at 4:38pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Vinnie. It's an important decision for me and it was made clear to me that I don't get a warranty but I do get a 3 day DOA period. I keep going back to remembering the 3d quality of image my 111fd had but on the other hand the ZT60 will be very close according the reports.
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post #17 of 96
2/25/13 at 4:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kheovnien View Post

Instead of asking which one to buy why don't you ask yourself which one you would regret NOT buying? sounds silly but spending that amount of coin on something can cause some bad regret. weigh the pros and cons for yourself (screen size, bezel design and dimensions, warranty, etc.). We will all give you opinions but in the end it's yours that matters most. I would rather have a slightly lower black levels (if they don't match the Kuro when it comes out) but a 5 inch larger screen. Would you rather have a "potentially" better picture but smaller screen? Can you afford to buy a new tv if it breaks? Are replacement/repairs available?

Good post and thank you. Have you ever gone backwards in screen size? In theory going from a 65 to 60 doesn't seem like much but I'll bet it is.
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post #18 of 96
2/25/13 at 4:51pm
I hear you...I think it's predominately those deep black levels that create that impression of 3D and enhanced depth perception. If the ZT60 can compare, we should be in for a treat.
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post #19 of 96
2/25/13 at 4:56pm
@ GlasHub

Can a Square trade or mack warranty be purchased or does it have to come with the manufacturers warranty to purchase either one of those?
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post #20 of 96
2/25/13 at 5:30pm
How about seeing if he'll let you return the set in 3 days even if it is perfectly fine? 3 days should be enough to determine if you regret the decision, wish you had a newer feature set, bigger TV, different look, etc.

B.
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post #21 of 96
2/25/13 at 5:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

I'm confused...I was simply asking for help with a decision turbe and now I find myself being asked to answer questions that aren't really relevant to my original post. I'd like to get back on topic as it's clear I won't get a warranty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I don't think he's trying to derail, Glash, and is just trying to get to the bottom of the (lack of) warranty issue with the Pio. No one can say for sure what is the better decision until the ZT60 is out in the wild, but the current lack of warranty doesn't favor the 141 decision. That said, you shouldn't have any problems, since Pioneer had a lower defective rate than even Panasonic when they were still in the TV bidness.

Well, many don't realize, I've been involved with Pioneer warranty claims when it comes to ISFccc issues on these models.. these cases got escalated to me for investigation..

I'll be honest, the last was nearly 18-22 months ago..

Perhaps they have some legal way to not honor manufacturer warranties on NIB Kuros still in dealer stock.. that's not my area of course.. I just step in once the case was escalated for ISFccc related issues.

The ZT60 most likely won't come close in ABL handling to the PRO-141FD (or PRO-1101, KRP-500M or KRP-600M) nor will any Plasma since.. unfortunately / fortunately? energy compliance regulations have changed since 2008. I do believe a benchmark will be introduced for this years VE Shootout, we'll see if it makes it in..

I think $3495 is fair for NIB 141FD.. however. offer less ($2995 or even less).. if no go.. we only have ~3 months to go for the ZT60 smile.gif

I own a 141 and 500M.. I would not part with my 141FD for $3000... my very low hours 500M sits in a climate controlled room, unused, unplugged for 2 years... I will be selling it (I think! or is that my wife wanting it out?).
Edited by turbe - 2/25/13 at 6:07pm
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post #22 of 96
2/25/13 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonyboy View Post

.....Can a Square trade or mack warranty be purchased or does it have to come with the manufacturers warranty to purchase either one of those?

No. They require that there be a manufacturer's warranty in effect, then they'll extend that.

The Pioneer warranty issue is a bit sticky - back when they were making TVs they were claiming that there would be no factory warranty if the TV was not bought from an authorized dealer, but i believe the laws require them to honor the warranty even if the retailer was not on their authorized dealer list. And it was discussed several times that nobody knows of anyone who's warranty repairs were denied because the TV was bought from a non-authorized dealer. I also wonder if the laws require manufacturers to honor the factory warranty even if the brand new TV has gone unsold for three years? New is new, and Pioneer is still in business.

There is no way i'd buy a new Pioneer without a warranty, but if Pioneer can be forced to honor the TV's original warranty then that would be a whole different ballgame. But without a warranty, i'd pass and get the Panny. Murphy's law would probably cause a failure in the Pio.
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post #23 of 96
2/25/13 at 6:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post


Well, many don't realize, I've been involved with Pioneer warranty claims when it comes to ISFccc issues on these models.. these cases got escalated to me for investigation..

I'll be honest, the last was nearly 18-22 months ago..

Perhaps they have some legal way to not honor manufacturer warranties on NIB Kuros still in dealer stock.. that's not my area of course.. I just step in once the case was escalated for ISFccc related issues.

The ZT60 most likely won't come close in ABL handling to the PRO-141FD (or PRO-1101, KRP-500M or KRP-600M) nor will any Plasma since.. unfortunately / fortunately? energy compliance regulations have changed since 2008. I do believe a benchmark will be introduced for this years VE Shootout, we'll see if it makes it in..

I think $3495 is fair for NIB 141FD.. however. offer less ($2995 or even less).. if no go.. we only have ~3 months to go for the ZT60 smile.gif

I own a 141 and 500M.. I would not part with my 141FD for $3000... my very low hours 500M sits in a climate controlled room, unused, unplugged for 2 years... I will be selling it (I think! or is that my wife wanting it out?).

Thanks turbe. I appreciate your feedback.
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post #24 of 96
2/25/13 at 6:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

No. They require that there be a manufacturer's warranty in effect, then they'll extend that.

The Pioneer warranty issue is a bit sticky - back when they were making TVs they were claiming that there would be no factory warranty if the TV was not bought from an authorized dealer, but i believe the laws require them to honor the warranty even if the retailer was not on their authorized dealer list. And it was discussed several times that nobody knows of anyone who's warranty repairs were denied because the TV was bought from a non-authorized dealer. I also wonder if the laws require manufacturers to honor the factory warranty even if the brand new TV has gone unsold for three years? New is new, and Pioneer is still in business.

There is no way i'd buy a new Pioneer without a warranty, but if Pioneer can be forced to honor the TV's original warranty then that would be a whole different ballgame. But without a warranty, i'd pass and get the Panny. Murphy's law would probably cause a failure in the Pio.

Thanks so much Randy.
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post #25 of 96
2/25/13 at 6:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

How about seeing if he'll let you return the set in 3 days even if it is perfectly fine? 3 days should be enough to determine if you regret the decision, wish you had a newer feature set, bigger TV, different look, etc.

B.

Great question Brian. Thanks.
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post #26 of 96
2/25/13 at 7:01pm
Isn't there a guy on eBay selling this set nib for $6000? This is a steal, considering you know who the seller is smile.gif

Yor friend has held on to this set this long. Can he hold out til you see the zt?

As tempting as it is to own something no longer street legal, I would probably chicken out.
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post #27 of 96
2/25/13 at 7:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

Isn't there a guy on eBay selling this set nib for $6000? This is a steal, considering you know who the seller is smile.gif

Yor friend has held on to this set this long. Can he hold out til you see the zt?

As tempting as it is to own something no longer street legal, I would probably chicken out.

barth, this is not the ebay set...I'm the one who warned/told the forum about it. Would never buy it. This is local. And it is completely legal...no gray market.
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post #28 of 96
2/25/13 at 10:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

I'm confused...I was simply asking for help with a decision turbe and now I find myself being asked to answer questions that aren't really relevant to my original post. I'd like to get back on topic as it's clear I won't get a warranty.
Before you get into figuring out which display would be best, I would want to ask myself if I can afford to take a $3,500 total loss. It sounds like the only way your fiend is willing to take the set back is if it is actually DOA.

I would prefer to buy a 141 that had been used for a while. At least that would eliminate the NIB sudden death syndrome that most complex electronic devices can suffer.
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post #29 of 96
2/26/13 at 5:36am
The warranty , 5 inches bigger , 3d, and new tech , less energy , runs cooler , maybe quieter (buzz) need consideration. That's how good the 141 is....it makes for a tough choice.
I'd say the Panny - but it would make my throat dry deciding.
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post #30 of 96
2/26/13 at 6:10am
Thread Starter 
Well, there is something about the way htwaits wrote his post that got me to imagining what it would feel like to have that Kuro mounted and working only to have it develop problems a month later. Oh, it would be painful. I already know a replacement panel costs $3500.

As kaosv1 implied…so strong is the seduction of the Kuro it’s hard to free oneself from it…especially if you’ve owned one in the past like I have.

It’s that the Kuros I’ve had made it almost impossible to watch a movie on a pleasant early summer evening in LA without air running.
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