Have You Heard Exotic Audio Cables Improve Sound Quality? - Page 2

For the prices some of these company folks ask they could have made the damn things from pure 24k 12ga threaded wire. But instead they try to sell folks on sterilized oxygen free cotton surrounds and anti fatiguing terminal connector ( no joke ).

I'm good with pure copper 12ga wire from monoprice. As always YMMV.

Is that $14,000 US dollars? Do people really pay that for cables!?! My car isn't even worth that.

Limited experience with testing high end speaker cables, but I agree gauge is pbly the most important factor. Lets see, 11.2 surround system with 14K for a pair of 2.5 meter cables.... I would hope they not only sound phenominal, but also gave me a foot massage while I'm listening!

Yes I know this guy who spent over $1,000,000for his stereo!

Is it possible that audio equipment is a bottleneck for majority of population? For example, I can't hear the difference between x and y on one of my shi.tty low-budget headphones. But does it mean I wouldn't be able to hear it in professional studio on their equipment?

The cable pebbles come to my mind, upon reading this thread! LOL!

http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/06/20/denons-499-cable-vs-brilliant-pebbles/

And just look at Denon's $500 dollar Ethernet cable. I'm sorry, is that internet data going to be more pure? AH HA HA!!! There's a sucker born every minute. All the people saying they hear a difference, I'm willing to bet, most of them didn't do a blind test and just convinced themselves that there was an improvement. There's a reason why dozens of publications and organizations have done blind tests and it's fairly clear, there's no audible difference.

When I used to work at a high-end electronics dealer (in the warehouse), we pushed Monster Cables so heavily there, audio and HDMI, and 99% of our TV displays and speakers were hooked up with cheap, generic cables. Funny how our company and salesmen went to big Monster Cable dealer gatherings and pushed how superior we thought the cables were, but we didn't care enough to demo our products with what would, allegedly, give the best performance.

I've heard all manner of cables when I worked there, there's no difference. I would be willing to say, maybe, there might be a difference, when measuring with the most sensitive audio equipment on earth. But, certainly not discernible to the human ear.

The most classic thing I've ever read!

The one cable I did hear a difference with was going from a cheap cable to send the single to my sub to a nicer one. I don't want to say it was a night and day difference but you could tell for sure.

Howdy Scott,
Yes, this absolutely IS one of those interesting and hotly debated issues, and yes, I've heard the difference. I've been a musician for 50 years (man, I'm OLD), and about 10 years ago I decided to put together my dream bass guitar system. It took me 2 years, countless hours on the internet and in music stores, and trying various components together until I finally arrived at my super duper stereo bass system.

The manager of our local music store is also a bass player and had followed my quest with interest (I had bought my dream bass from him, but got the amps and speakers else where). So, when I had it all done he asked me to bring it down to his store after hours one night to see how it sounded. He was impressed, but went into the back room and brought out a couple of cables and asked me if I wanted to try something. He said he had a power cable that would make my system sound better.

Well, look, I've been around the block a few times, so I laughed, telling him that was silly, but then said sure, why not. Well, I'll be a son of a gun, but after he hooked that cable going form the wall into the power for my rackmount system, I actually heard the bottom end tighten up and become clearer, and it was like lifting a veil off the top end. I was flabbergasted. He went back and forth quite a few times, not telling me which cable he was using, and I would listen, then tell him which one I thought it was, and then go look and see, and I got right every time.

It's one of those things that unless you hear it yourself, you just won't believe it, and trust me, I understand completely the skepticism of anybody out there that thinks I'm either a duffus or lying. But it was quite obvious, not subtle at all.

So........ I'm already using a very good cable going from my bass to my rack system, but he brings over the other cable, which is unlike anything I've seen before, very light weight with metal braiding on the outside. Hmmmmm. It's got arrows on it showing which way the signal should flow, so I plug one end in my bass and the other in my rack. Damn, it tightens up the bass even more, and lifts another veil off the top end. I'm just speechless at this point, so we unplug his two "magic" cables and I go back to my regular (high quality) cables, and now it sounds mushy, which I hadn't noticed before, but now I do. So I plug the new cables back in and the sound is golden.

Needless to say, I bought both those cables (about $300 for both with a 30 day return period if didn't like them) and used that rig for 6 years playing all over the central coast, and let me tell you, every time I powered that rig up, it not only made me smile, but gave me goose bumps. Perfection, and those cables were the whipped cream and cherry on top of the sundae. Occasionally I would try going back to my regular cables, but after a few minutes I just couldn't' do it and would stick the "magic" cables back in.

I've heard all the arguments about snake oil, acoustic memory, etc. Believe or don't believe. Makes no difference to me. I can only tell you my experience and let you decide for yourself. Happy trails.

I bought into the concept of high end cables early into the hobby but as I gained experience over the years, I realized how silly it was to believe cables made any difference.

About a year ago, several of us got together at another audio hobbyist's home to conduct a double blind test with $10k per 2m pair cables (brand will rename nameless) vs home depot lamp cord. The cables were connected to a pair of Perfect 8 Technology: The Force speakers (retail $300k per pair). Can't recall the amps but they were mono tube amps. None of us could guess which cables were connected, including the owner who picked the Home Depot lamp cord over his own $10k cables during a few double blind tests. That experience solidified it for me. Cables do nothing unless they were poorly assembled and damaged internally.

That said, I do believe in well constructed cables and will spend a little more for it. Mogami is a great choice for interconnects. Cables from Cobalt were great for the money when they were in business. Quality hardware and construction at a reasonable price. I will even spring for the lower end PSAudio power cables because they are nicely made and look great. That is about as much as I would spend.

Mine was at home.

I am immediately suspicious of any product that invokes engineering or physics properties that are unknown to engineers and physicists.

There have been very expensive cables that changed the sound because they were poorly designed or added things like resistors or other extra circuits and actually made the sound worse. There are sometimes differences in the sound of cables but different is not always better.

It doesn't matter what your experience is or how long you've been doing this or that, no one is immune to expectation bias. If you "heard" a difference when switching between one cable & another and you weren't blinded during the switch then you can throw your observations out the window. That's what this argument boils down to: The hearing experience of people--even highly trained people--is altered by subjective factors (i.e. knowing what cable you're listening to) and as long as those factors aren't controlled for any data gathered during the listening experience is unreliable and therefore invalid.

There's nothing wrong with buying really expensive cable, as long as you're doing it for aesthetic reasons rather than claims of superior performance. Personally, I buy all my stuff from Blue Jeans Cables (an AVS sponsor). The cut-to-length welded termination speaker cables don't perform any better than what I had before but they are much more convenient and don't fall apart like the Monoprice setup they replaced. I prefer BJC because the build quality is good, they look decent, they source American when possible and they stood up to Monster's legal bullying. None of these factors make them sound better but in a world where everything is turning into a commodity I like giving my money to a company with some integrity.
Edited by repete66211 - 2/28/13 at 7:41am

Improve sound quality? NO

But as with beer, once it leaves the brewery, its' quality is all downhill. There are just too many foes against, all that can be done is to control the conditions of your precious beer once it leaves your control, to preserve that sacred taste (not easy). I feel the same about the signal my cables carry. They can not improve the sound! How could they do that? I feel that would be like Alan Parsons admitting that Abbey Road or Dark Side of The Moon sound better with cable X, as would other sound engineers. No, I want to hear what was recorded, as close as possible, in my system. I used the beer anaiogy as I used to be a brewer / partner in a brewpub, an expert I am not!

I just want to make sure my analog cables are well built. I admit I may have been a bit of cable mfg. towel boy. I am able to hear a difference between cables that carry analog signals the easiest. I 1st noticed this using different cables to carry the 5.1 analog of an SACD disk to my pre. Well, anyway I had several different cable mfg. to play with and was quite suprised. None improved the sound, but I enjoyed the sound of one over the others. That is the way I went, I am happy, this is what is imporant to me.

That said:

Some may be wondering what cable I decided to use for my analog signals. I picked up AQ Python years back when they went to the DBS voodo, and have picked up some more at auction over the years. Silly at $500/M but close-out and used, well. . .

That is my morning cup of joe. . . "The game is afoot."

I have heard differences in cables but only because of the makeup of the cables themselves. Some have high capacitance and others have a large inductance. The gauge is very important ,especially on long runs.
I have been in several blind tests with various cables and I must say that if you told someone that the cable costs lot then they think they hear a difference over cheap lamp cord. I had people thinking that a cable sounded sharp or light but that was because it was made of silver.
I said I switched out the cable to one made of copper and the responses were different but in reality they were the same cable.

I have been an audiophile since the mid 1980's. During the past 25 years, I have experimented with some expensive cables. Yes, many do sound different in different systems. Some make an improvement, others do not and others make systems sound worse. I have found that the most expensive stuff is just BS. $10,000 for speaker cables or a pair of interconnects is just crazy. They are sold with systems that cost a ton. If you can afford a preamp/amp combo that costs over $50k, they will sell you $10k cables too, as you can afford it. Do they help your system, probably not and not in a manner to justify the cost. However, some audiophiles will pay that kind of money for very tiny incremental perceived improvements in sound quality. In my experience, if you have cables made with quality materials that are terminated well and are well made, they will sound great for the vast majority of people and systems. Based on my experience, the most I would spend for a past of interconnects or speaker cables is about $500.00 a pair. At that price point, you will get excellent results. You will need to try different brands to see what works best for your system. You should be able to arrange for loaner sets from your retailer to try before you purchase. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother. If the retailer doesn't have the confidence in the products he sell, you shouldn't buy his stuff. As for power cords, while I was very skeptical, I have heard them make significant differences as well. However with power cords, the max is about $100 for a 3m cord. Anything more is a waste of money. My HT set up is completely powered by the same power cord and it made a significant improvement. I replaced each cord one by one, from the BD player, pre to the amp and sub and each one improved the sound. Because of a connection I have, each one was purchased at dealer cost and hence were well under $100 each. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Couldn't be happier. So in short, IMHO, cables do matter but up to a point. You need not and frankly shouldn't have to spend tons of money to get great sound. IN short, you need to try out different cables in your system and make your own determination. You may find that the $10.00 cables sound find for you and anything more is a waste. If so, go for it. That, however, has not been my experience.

Overpriced cables are a case of pure marketing B.S., I have never heard a difference between two cables of similar length and of the same gauge. The emperor's new speaker cables have been around for a long time. Engadget's "Monster Cable vs. Coat Hanger" article serves as my official, irreverent, and standard reference as to why it takes a leap of faith to believe there is an audible difference. Amplifiers don't even sound substantially different from each other, cables make no difference in sound quality beyond limitations in power handling that depend on the gauge of the wire and the length they are run, in relation to the output voltage of the amplifier.

The funniest claims are the ones made by Nordost, with their "Propagation Delay" ratings. Oh, the price you pay to move up from 95% speed of light to 98% speed of light... for some people that price difference is the same as the cost of a new car. Talk about diminishing returns.
Edited by imagic - 2/28/13 at 3:54pm

You can't disprove science with subjective reasoning.

When I first entered this hobby I was lured in by the "exotic" cables. As I climbed up the ladder I noticed improvements in "air," "midrange sweetness," "improved treble smoothness," and "greater bass depth." I've owned some of the higher end Cardas, Nordost and AudioQuest cabling. When I finished my engineering studies and learned about placebo's effect on one's psychology I made a detour (and sold these cables). I learned about real engineering concepts that govern measurable and audible performance in circuits and cables, and I also learned about ABX testing.

Depending on the type of cable (and its usage) the following aspects matter: resistance, capacitance, inductance and impedance (RF and EMI are also factors in some cases). Adequate gauge, geometry and connectorization have an impact on the stated attributes, as does shielding type (braid, foil, etc.). Belden, Canare, etc. make solid cables that are used in the studios and live venues where great music is recorded. Companies like Blue Jeans Cable select the correct cable type for the application and ensure the connectors are installed properly.

For analog interconnects I ensure the capacitance is low and adequate shielding is present. For digital coax I ensure adequate bandwidth is available and proper shielding is present; correct impedance should also be maintained. For speaker cables, resistance and inductance are important attributes. Whenever possible I use balanced cables with XLR terminations. I don't doubt that there are audible differences when "exotic" cables are used; however, I doubt whether those differences are a result of improved resolution or simply design/application flaws that sound more pleasing or euphoric to the listener.

I'll just stick with Monoprice cables , never had a problem.

I didn't vote because I fit in the "I havent heard but dont believe" category.

Honestly, I have spent money on nicer cables. However, that was only because they were going through a wall and wanted them to be better insulated to not worry about possible rodents and moisture...

I got these from bluejeanscable.com

I did use normal lamp cable before I used these and did not hear any difference.

The only time I think it would be possible to hear a difference is if, for instance, every piece of equipment in your rack is 100% silver. So in the receiver/preamp there is no copper wire and caps are silver/gold, the crossover is all silver/gold, etc.

why would using expensive silver wire and all that other junk matter if the crossovers in the speaker and the electronics in the preamp are copper?

Swallowing a camel and gagging at a gnat if you ask me.

How would the use of nothing but silver have any effect on the accurate reproduction of sine waves, which is the ultimate goal of HiFi? The slightly better conductivity of silver vs. copper makes an infinitesimally small difference, one that can easily be compensated for by using a more copper for any given cable length vs. the equivalent silver cable. There is no difference in measurable frequency response between silver and copper cables.
Edited by imagic - 2/28/13 at 10:17am

The funniest claims are the ones made by Nordost, with their "Propagation Delay" ratings. Oh, the price you pay to move up from 95% speed of light to 98% speed of light... for some people that price difference is the same as the cost of a new car. Talk about diminishing returns.[/quote]

Diminishing returns indeed! Per Einstein's TOR, the speed of light (186,000 m/sec) is the cosmic speed limit and can only be approached. So put that in perspective when upgrading a cable instead of a new car or an education.

For digital transmission, as long as the same bits get there, it doesn't matter what the cable is. But speaker wire is another beast entirely, because there we're talking analog electrical pressures and pulses. And given that speakers are driven by things like the force, amplitude, etc of electric current, the same current traveling through the speaker wires, I'd say it HAS to make some small difference. Electricity is like water. Let's take the water example. If you had a bunch of water pipes supplying a turbine or even an old fashioned mill, then the thickness of the water pipes, the speed of water flow through the pipes, the presence or absence of holes in the pipes, etc would all have some small effect upon the performance of turbine/mill, or in this case speaker. Even something like the total electrical resistance of the wire could have a subtle impact on sound.

So does that make any sense, or am I off my rocker?

Actually, the resistance is about all you've got - unless there's a specific need for shielding. As far as how to quantify that difference, if one cable offers marginally less resistance and that translates to marginally louder playback, that's going to be the 'preferred' cable, however it has nothing to do with which metal is used and everything to do with cable length and what gauge that cable is. Ultimately, if you match two sources to within 0.1Db, double-blind (A/B) testing will reveal the fallacy that speaker cables make any difference in the actual sound. Same goes for water - stainless steel tubing and PVC tubing and copper tubing all carry the same amount of water over the same distance, so long as their interior diameter matches.

Let me clarify,

If the electronics are copper in the speaker and crossover and the preamp I dont see why using silver wire would be any benefit at all

But if it was all silver in the preamp and crossover I can see it being something that someone would care about as the copper wire between could be the "weak link"

I don't have any experience with the "exotic" cables and so my statement is an assumption based on what I have read.

I hope that makes sense...I see what I am trying to say in my head...but I am not always good at putting it down in words.

Yes, but that person would be acting very silly to think that a bit of copper ruins everything. They are doomed and the next thing you know folks who think like that are placing their stereo components on $40,000 racks and deploying $1,300 doohickeys which are being placed in close proximity to their electronic equipment, presumably to keep the ghosts and goblins at bay. It's sort of thinking which creates the market for $5,000 power cables and $25,000 speaker cables, but it's not based on science, it's more about having "gilded everything". There is no weak link just because copper is used instead of silver.
Edited by imagic - 2/28/13 at 11:45am

I agree.

high end audio has a lot to do in my opinion with people wanting to say "my system cost more than yours, so it must sound better"

I will admit, when I first started getting into audio I was almost convinced of somethings. For instance, the first true high end speaker I heard was some Wilson Maxx 3 and they sounded amazing to me and then I thought I would never be able to have such an incredible sound in my own home due to the cost....

Then I learned about DIY and started reading books on audio design and how it's average that 10% of what a speaker costs is in components and materials....

So now I am just learning...and learning some more before I do any builds...there are many different designs I want to try...but no money to do any of them.

Unity horns, OB designs(Linkwitz), etc.

Well watch out for the ghost they might get into the cables :)

Edited by wse - 2/28/13 at 8:35pm

Best stuff you can buy for the money is Monoprice 12ga cable. I like the CL2 rated stuff because it's got a sheath which protects the cable from getting cut when wrapping dragging it around studs.

+2 !!!