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Have You Heard Exotic Audio Cables Improve Sound Quality? - Page 17

Poll Results: Have You Heard Exotic Audio Cables Improve Sound Quality?

 
  • 8% (45)
    Yes, and it was a big improvement
  • 10% (56)
    Yes, but it was only a slight improvement
  • 54% (284)
    No, I did not hear any improvement
  • 25% (132)
    I don't have enough experience to say
517 Total Votes  
post #481 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

care to elaborate on emotiva amps?

This question belong in the "Have you heard exotic amps improve sound quality" thread biggrin.gif
post #482 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Postcare to elaborate on emotiva amps?

Send me a pm otherwise I get banned,no one can say anything bad about Emotiva on this site they are converts!

post #483 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Yes I am thinking to rewire my entire house with 100% pure silver cable, including all my electronic equipment especially those made on China!

silver powerlines hun, now that just seems overkill:D
post #484 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by denkiedenk View Postsilver powerlines hun, now that just seems overkill:D

That would be nice looking :)

post #485 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Manufacturer 'spec sheets' are often not particularly useful. But well done bench tests can be.

The 'dark truth' -- unavoidable truth -- is that humans are very prone to believing what they want to believe, regardless of whether it is true. As a doctor you should be at least aware that proper comparisons like this are done 'blind' (as well as having other controls in place), to separate 'placebo'-like effects from ones due to real audible difference. Its very possible you drew the wrong conclusion from your 'experiment' with the Marantz and Kenwood because the experiment itself was flawed.

Interesting -- sound reproduction is a very subjective shall I say 'art'. So I ask, what better experiment is there than swapping integrated amps using the same room speakers sources recordings and comparing the two over a period of months? Maybe I am confused, but how a component sounds in the environment it is going to be used -- isn't that pretty much what matters?

There are those in this community that seem to take sine waves and spec sheets as proxies for sound quality -- are you in that camp? I was in an exchange on another thread with a soul who professed that any digitally sourced sound is 'perfect' and would suffer no further discussion. He had no room in his thinking for moving coils tubes and direct to disc recordings. And to his credit, it is very hard to find such things properly presented, so how would he know? But I wander. . .

No, I am afraid even to my beer sodden neighbors at the time the Kenwood was a toad. My flaw was believing the specs, but I overcame it a few months later when I sold it, well, based on the sparkling spec sheet. The poor sap who bought it had a big wallet and a tin ear. I got what I paid for it and bought a Paragon E tube preamp and sold some books and grabbed a pair of Dyanco tube mono amps. Best sounding set I ever had despite some spectacular power supply issues -- nothing like an output tube glowing white hot, but that is another story. One last, the Paragon and Dyancos had lousy specs -- 1% THD or some such, but they sounded sublime -- even my beer sodden neighbors appreciated them.
post #486 of 645
First, I only looked at this last post of FF's. If you compare amps, all else in terms of sources and speakers are the same, you still need to level match the speakers for a fair comparison, otherwise you might just be hearing a slight difference in loudness and interpreting it incorrectly. Look up gain structure, too. Just a thought...
post #487 of 645
Thanks. I swapped them several times over two months, matched levels by ear. Db meters where still bench instruments in the day and way beyond my budget at the time. High levels low levels middle levels the kenwood sounded hollow, lifeless. It was quiet but not pleasing in any other way. Your point is good, side by side comparisons are very biased by something as simple as volume levels.
post #488 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friendly Fire View Post

Thanks. I swapped them several times over two months, matched levels by ear. Db meters where still bench instruments in the day and way beyond my budget at the time. High levels low levels middle levels the kenwood sounded hollow, lifeless. It was quiet but not pleasing in any other way. Your point is good, side by side comparisons are very biased by something as simple as volume levels.

Level matching is very simple. You just play a 1000 hz tone and measure the voltage across the speaker terminals. You adjust volume so that the voltage is the same. If you don't, the louder presentation will win every time in a bias controlled test.
post #489 of 645
But, but....That doesn't produce the result I want. It must be wrong.
post #490 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friendly Fire View Post

Thanks. I swapped them several times over two months, matched levels by ear. Db meters where still bench instruments in the day and way beyond my budget at the time. High levels low levels middle levels the kenwood sounded hollow, lifeless. It was quiet but not pleasing in any other way. Your point is good, side by side comparisons are very biased by something as simple as volume levels.

Just how long ago are you talking about?
post #491 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friendly Fire View Post

Interesting -- sound reproduction is a very subjective shall I say 'art'. So I ask, what better experiment is there than swapping integrated amps using the same room speakers sources recordings and comparing the two over a period of months? Maybe I am confused, but how a component sounds in the environment it is going to be used -- isn't that pretty much what matters?

There are those in this community that seem to take sine waves and spec sheets as proxies for sound quality -- are you in that camp? I was in an exchange on another thread with a soul who professed that any digitally sourced sound is 'perfect' and would suffer no further discussion. He had no room in his thinking for moving coils tubes and direct to disc recordings. And to his credit, it is very hard to find such things properly presented, so how would he know? But I wander. . .

No, I am afraid even to my beer sodden neighbors at the time the Kenwood was a toad. My flaw was believing the specs, but I overcame it a few months later when I sold it, well, based on the sparkling spec sheet. The poor sap who bought it had a big wallet and a tin ear. I got what I paid for it and bought a Paragon E tube preamp and sold some books and grabbed a pair of Dyanco tube mono amps. Best sounding set I ever had despite some spectacular power supply issues -- nothing like an output tube glowing white hot, but that is another story. One last, the Paragon and Dyancos had lousy specs -- 1% THD or some such, but they sounded sublime -- even my beer sodden neighbors appreciated them.

What one must understand is specs are there to describe, document for the purpose to compare products on a technical level.
What you fail to realize is that you are not understanding specs and what specs are important to you. - This is not easy given the marketing ******** that is out there.

Dont expect "magic" from specs but do expect that the "magic" can have its own specs.
If you like a tube amp then you would like some second harmonic distortion content, nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately things often turn into a numbers game and people are lured down that path.
post #492 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by ELECTRONICeng View Post

What one must understand is specs are there to describe, document for the purpose to compare products on a technical level.
What you fail to realize is that you are not understanding specs and what specs are important to you. - This is not easy given the marketing ******** that is out there.

Dont expect "magic" from specs but do expect that the "magic" can have its own specs.
If you like a tube amp then you would like some second harmonic distortion content, nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately things often turn into a numbers game and people are lured down that path.

Excellent -- YOU get it. Myriad others do not.

Using the specs we as consumers have access to I find it very unrewarding selecting equipment. I have to listen. I have to listen with recordings I know, and I have to listen several times. Then I can put the gear in my theater room with some confidence.
post #493 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friendly Fire View Post


Excellent -- YOU get it. Myriad others do not.

Using the specs we as consumers have access to I find it very unrewarding selecting equipment. I have to listen. I have to listen with recordings I know, and I have to listen several times. Then I can put the gear in my theater room with some confidence.

Only way you can do it with confidence is if you listen blind and take out any bias.  :-)

post #494 of 645
I don't believe spec very much as they are largely marketing hype. You have to listen and compare on the best audio system available to you.
To get back on topic, cost has little to no correlation to the quality of audio interconnects. But I also don't believe wire is wire and any cable will do just as well as any other for interconnects or speaker cable. To my experience wire topology is very important. I currently use Mogami W2330 Interconnect wire to make my own interconnects, besides being relatively inexpensive, It sounds just as good as the expensive boutique cable. For speaker cable I have found the braided wire of the Kimber Kable design to make a quite noticeable audio improvement.
post #495 of 645
What is wire topology? The shape or space of the wire is important to you??? You don't believe in specs? You think they are just made up, there are no measurements behind them? Or do you just not believe in using them for anything audio? Just calling them interconnects sounds specious to me....
post #496 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

What is wire topology? The shape or space of the wire is important to you??? You don't believe in specs? You think they are just made up, there are no measurements behind them? Or do you just not believe in using them for anything audio? Just calling them interconnects sounds specious to me....

No, not the literal definition you just read off of Wikipedia. By topology I mean the way the cables are constructed or the components are arranged. Such as shielding or the way the wire is wrapped or braided.
Specs are very important, but some specs are more meaningful than others and testing setup can skew results. There is a lot of audio gear with glowing specs, but they don't all sound equally good. But then not everyone has a system capable of resolving the auditory differences.
post #497 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by remilton View Post

I don't believe spec very much as they are largely marketing hype. You have to listen and compare on the best audio system available to you.... For speaker cable I have found the braided wire of the Kimber Kable design to make a quite noticeable audio improvement.

Hm, I am yet to see an ABX test which supports any of these claims.

Unless a sneaky salesman has coiled 5000' of wire behind one speaker and is comparing it to 5' of a different "high-end" wire, I doubt anyone would be able to hear "quite noticeable audio improvement."

Of course, if the wire was braided by purple-haired virgin mermaids under blue moonlight, then even deaf people can clearly hear the subtle nuances of Cannibal Corpse's amazing musicianship which is completely inaudible with non-exotic wire.
post #498 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Hm, I am yet to see an ABX test which supports any of these claims.

Unless a sneaky salesman has coiled 5000' of wire behind one speaker and is comparing it to 5' of a different "high-end" wire, I doubt anyone would be able to hear "quite noticeable audio improvement."

Of course, if the wire was braided by purple-haired virgin mermaids under blue moonlight, then even deaf people can clearly hear the subtle nuances of Cannibal Corpse's amazing musicianship which is completely inaudible with non-exotic wire.

I am not talking about buying expensive wire from a sneaky salesman I am talking about wire you can construct in you own workshop from market value wire you can buy from your local supply. To hear some of you on this board, there is no difference in how cable is constructed, a straight signal and ground is all you need. Going on that narrow view shielded cable is a myth. And like shielded cable the only objective here is to prevent a long run of wire from degrading the signal.
You can believe as you wish, I am just reporting differences I have witnessed based on different construction of cables. You don't need special high grade metals or cryogenic processes or any unobtainium to construct. But if you wish to ridicule anyone that comes on here with an opinion other than yours, you may soon find yourself with no one on here with any opinions to discuss.
post #499 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by remilton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

What is wire topology? The shape or space of the wire is important to you??? You don't believe in specs? You think they are just made up, there are no measurements behind them? Or do you just not believe in using them for anything audio? Just calling them interconnects sounds specious to me....

No, not the literal definition you just read off of Wikipedia. By topology I mean the way the cables are constructed or the components are arranged. Such as shielding or the way the wire is wrapped or braided.
Specs are very important, but some specs are more meaningful than others and testing setup can skew results. There is a lot of audio gear with glowing specs, but they don't all sound equally good. But then not everyone has a system capable of resolving the auditory differences.

I didn't need to look up the definition of topology, I've known that since I was a child as I was very interested in math. I did just now look up the definition of network topology, and can see why you might have used that word but it doesn't apply simply for wire or cable. If you mean cable construction say so, but using funky sales language won't get you far around here...maybe audiogon. What does the arrangements of the components have to do with the wire/cable discussion? You into feng shui or something? smile.gif Speaker wire doesn't need shielding and improperly used can actually cause problems. Shielded coaxial has its applications. Twisted wire has it's applications (last I heard was mostly in telephones/computer networks). My "system" can resolve necesssary auditory differences in any case and magic speaker wire and cables just have never It ain't magic although some who spend more than they should think there's something special that comes along with the expenditure.
post #500 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I didn't need to look up the definition of topology, I've known that since I was a child as I was very interested in math. I did just now look up the definition of network topology, and can see why you might have used that word but it doesn't apply simply for wire or cable. If you mean cable construction say so, but using funky sales language won't get you far around here...maybe audiogon. What does the arrangements of the components have to do with the wire/cable discussion? You into feng shui or something? smile.gif Speaker wire doesn't need shielding and improperly used can actually cause problems. Shielded coaxial has its applications. Twisted wire has it's applications (last I heard was mostly in telephones/computer networks). My "system" can resolve necesssary auditory differences in any case and magic speaker wire and cables just have never It ain't magic although some who spend more than they should think there's something special that comes along with the expenditure.

Look, I don't really care what side of this you come down on. I don't sell audio gear, I don't visit audion and I am not trying to convince you to buy any thing, if you want to use $10 zip cord that is fine with me. The only thing I was trying to say was that I had noticed a difference in speaker wire the was not subtle not to attack you for thinking you are a fool. I do understand electronic theory and know there is no rational or obvious reason for my experience but here we are. By the way my remark about shielding was in reference to interconnects not speaker cable.

I am into the musical enjoyment phase of my life and haven't AB'd any equipment in years. So, if I am setting up my stereo system and I have a choice of a spool of zip cord I have or going upstairs to get my $100 Kimber Kable I have had for 10 years I think I'll use the later since I have history of experience.

Peace out.
post #501 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by remilton View Post

Look, I don't really care what side of this you come down on. I don't sell audio gear, I don't visit audion and I am not trying to convince you to buy any thing, if you want to use $10 zip cord that is fine with me. The only thing I was trying to say was that I had noticed a difference in speaker wire the was not subtle not to attack you for thinking you are a fool. I do understand electronic theory and know there is no rational or obvious reason for my experience but here we are. By the way my remark about shielding was in reference to interconnects not speaker cable.

I am into the musical enjoyment phase of my life and haven't AB'd any equipment in years. So, if I am setting up my stereo system and I have a choice of a spool of zip cord I have or going upstairs to get my $100 Kimber Kable I have had for 10 years I think I'll use the later since I have history of experience. Peace out.

Good for you, all that matters is your enjoyment this is a free country and we are all discussing about difference of opinion! I use a ten year old pair of 8TC that I bought at a great sale (70% off retail on audio advisor) my new speaker cables are just plain Mogami 11AWG used in 90 % of recording studios when they use passive speakers. I can't honestly tell the difference. As long as the copper is of good quality that's all that counts!
post #502 of 645
Heres a reality check.
Lets see, Amp to speaker connection.

Amp:
Rolled and etched oxidized copper traces on circuit board.
Loads of Lead tin alloy solder.
A length (1 foot?) of some cheap wire from China. Maybe Tin plated steel wire, copper instead of steel if your lucky.
Plated connector made from anything from brass to steel, hot stamped so loads of oxygen( oxides).

Your 10 foot exotic oxygen free speaker cable. *cough*

Speaker box:
All the same bits like in the amp.
Thin Copper alloy wire inside speaker voice coil.

Speaker tranducer:
The Speaker transducer is an electro mechanical device with non linear properties. Phase distortion, Amplitude distortion, variable impeadance, transient distortion. Group delay distortion, variable frequency response, variable parameters with temperature and humidity, mechanical deformation, mechanically induced fatigue. Need I go on?

Exotic speaker cable? No point.
post #503 of 645
Your statements about the poor signal róutes are right. But despite of this there are huge differences between the sound of different speaker cables. I'm developing cables for years and I take every chance to listen my cables in other's system. So I know what I speak. For 3 years ago I changed the inner wiring of my personally built amp to very, very thin wires. The overal soud improved a lot. More powerful bass, higher resolution etc. If you write me a mail I send you a pic on these new wiring. cables@freemail.hu
post #504 of 645
^^^^LMAO.....
post #505 of 645
The last set of interconnects I installed (a couple of months ago) I constructed for myself from Mogami W2330 Interconnect / microphone wire. This is some of the best cable for interconnects and is widely used in recording studios for their interconnects. W2330 is fairly inexpensive to boot (less than 60 cents a foot).
post #506 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cables View Post

Your statements about the poor signal róutes are right. But despite of this there are huge differences between the sound of different speaker cables. I'm developing cables for years and I take every chance to listen my cables in other's system. So I know what I speak. For 3 years ago I changed the inner wiring of my personally built amp to very, very thin wires. The overal soud improved a lot. More powerful bass, higher resolution etc. If you write me a mail I send you a pic on these new wiring. cables@freemail.hu

Clearly you are wrong. Your comments prove that.
post #507 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by remilton View Post

The last set of interconnects I installed (a couple of months ago) I constructed for myself from Mogami W2330 Interconnect / microphone wire. This is some of the best cable for interconnects and is widely used in recording studios for their interconnects. W2330 is fairly inexpensive to boot (less than 60 cents a foot).
Just out of curiosity I Googled Mogami W2330 and found it as low as 25 cents a foot. There were some other Mogami cables that I thought would be better for the application just a little more money.
post #508 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil17108 View Post

Just out of curiosity I Googled Mogami W2330 and found it as low as 25 cents a foot. There were some other Mogami cables that I thought would be better for the application just a little more money.

This is what I use for:

Interconnec Mogami Neglex Studio Quad #2534 cabling for better clarity and diminished noise and RF interference.
- http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/microphone/quad/

Seaker cables W3104
- http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/conventional_configuration/
post #509 of 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

This is what I use for:

Interconnec Mogami Neglex Studio Quad #2534 cabling for better clarity and diminished noise and RF interference.
- http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/microphone/quad/

Seaker cables W3104
- http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/conventional_configuration/

The Mogami cable is nice stuff but is it CL2 rated for in wall installation? I have used Monster and Monoprice rope lay cable, twisted pair 12 and 14 gage with good results. There is only one thing I do that is out of the realm just pull a straight line from on point to another in an attic , if there is a run of flex for an AC unit I make the run at a 90 degree and put foil insulation for a few feet between the 2. Start up inrush can create magnetic interference, for just a moment. Other then that I do not think there would be any problem unless you are next door to a hundred thousand watt radio tower.
post #510 of 645
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