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Have You Heard Exotic Audio Cables Improve Sound Quality? - Page 3

Poll Results: Have You Heard Exotic Audio Cables Improve Sound Quality?

 
  • 7% (30)
    Yes, and it was a big improvement
  • 12% (49)
    Yes, but it was only a slight improvement
  • 54% (220)
    No, I did not hear any improvement
  • 25% (104)
    I don't have enough experience to say
403 Total Votes  
post #61 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

I agree.

high end audio has a lot to do in my opinion with people wanting to say "my system cost more than yours, so it must sound better"

I will admit, when I first started getting into audio I was almost convinced of somethings. For instance, the first true high end speaker I heard was some Wilson Maxx 3 and they sounded amazing to me and then I thought I would never be able to have such an incredible sound in my own home due to the cost....

Then I learned about DIY and started reading books on audio design and how it's average that 10% of what a speaker costs is in components and materials....

So now I am just learning...and learning some more before I do any builds...there are many different designs I want to try...but no money to do any of them.

Unity horns, OB designs(Linkwitz), etc.
Aye! Why pay some one else! Much more gratifying also!
post #62 of 407
"Improvement" is a subjective thing. The question should probably be altered to, " did they create a difference in sound quality." Why should we assume that something that alters sound quality has "improved" it? Unless comparing to the original master recording played back in the original mix studio on the original mix monitors, it is almost impossible to determine what offers an objective "improvement" in quality. Perhaps someone here can posit a better reference than the one I just laid out, but without some objective reference to what the recording "should" sound like, it seems than all we can really talk about is preferences.

For that reason, I think this discussion should really be about whether or not esoteric cables create an audible difference. My answer is a rather emphatic "NO," unless the cable in question has been engineered in such a way to create a very specific alteration to the frequency response of the signal passing through the cable. An example of this is a cable that has something in its design that deliberately rolls off high frequency content, essentially a kind of built in EQ. So to qualify things further, I think we should narrow the discussion to those cables that attempt to pass along the signal in its purest possible form, unaltered in any way. Most speaker cables are designed to do this, even cheap lamp cord.

So why is my answer an emphatic "NO"? For two reasons. The first, and the most open to challenge, is because I not only understand the science of how sound is recorded and reproduced, I also understand the science around how we as human beings process the things we hear. That last is probably the most salient to this discussion, as all human beings are tremendously affected by confirmation bias and expectation bias (look those up if you are not familiar). These two factors explain almost perfectly the results of listening tests, both sighted and blind, when it comes to testing claims such as "cable A sounds better than cable B." Double blind tests of these types of products invariably have the same results - no one is able to reliably hear differences between cheap "included in the box" cables and those that cost thousands of dollars (unless, of course, the cable has an obvious - and measurable - affect on things such as frequency response). This makes sense, as confirmation and expectation bias are no longer factors in the test. However, non-blinded tests - where people are aware of exactly what they are listening to - often do produce results where subjects claim to hear obvious and dramatic differences in sound (usually, but not always). It is not really a surprise when one understands exactly how both of these biases work toward influencing our perceptions. If we expect to hear a difference, we usually do. If we have already made up our minds that one "should" sound better than the other, it is not surprising that the results confirm our suppositions. The only way around these two very human - and very real - factors is the double blind test.

This brings me directly to my second reason. I have conducted many blind and non-blinded tests, and I keep getting more and more evidence to support the above conclusion. I have had this particular scenario play out many many times: a person (or group of persons) swear up and down that they heard many obvious and dramatic differences between product A and product B, when all along they were only listening to product A and nothing was ever switched. Nothing was changed at all, yet people still claimed to have heard dramatic differences. What could possibly explain this except for expectation and confirmation bias? Whenever double blind tests are conducted, however, with volume levels carefully matched, the preference results invariably come down to the same that would result from random chance. In other words, guessing.

The positive here is that we don't need to worry about buying expensive cables to get the best sound. That money would be much better spent on better speakers or on acoustic treatments, which can be definitively demonstrated to affect the quality of reproduced sound smile.gif

FYI, despite my Panamorph / Folded Space credentials here on the Forum, my day job is actually that of film composer and sound designer / surround mixer for motion pictures (www.jsmusicandsound.com), so hopefully these "other" credentials help add some legitimacy to my comments wink.gif
post #63 of 407
John,
Emphatic No - Will put! (also a very nice explanation on "expectation and confirmation bias")
post #64 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

"Improvement" is a subjective thing. The question should probably be altered to, " did they create a difference in sound quality." Why should we assume that something that alters sound quality has "improved" it?
You echo what I said a few posts ago so of course I agree. However, I'm not sure if "quality" is necessary in your question here since the improvement of sound would be an increase in its quality.
post #65 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeffeMusic View Post

I think that the better the equipment is, the speaker cable actually does boost the quality of imaging. I listened to my brothers Krell Amp with a Krell preamp, via a wadia CD player fed into Sonus Faber speakers. We compared an expensive cable and an average cable. We both felt that the more expensive cable sounded clearer in regards to the imaging. I don't think it is as noticeable with mid level systems. Just my 2cents.

That's the kind of subjective observation that leads to errant conclusions. Since you had no ability to perform a blind A/B test, it's hard to say what you really heard. Speaker cables are incapable of improving a speaker's imaging. That's up to the speaker's placement, the room treatments, the volume level and the listening position.
Edited by imagic - 2/28/13 at 4:03pm
post #66 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

"Improvement" is a subjective thing. The question should probably be altered to, " did they create a difference in sound quality." Why should we assume that something that alters sound quality has "improved" it? Unless comparing to the original master recording played back in the original mix studio on the original mix monitors, it is almost impossible to determine what offers an objective "improvement" in quality. Perhaps someone here can posit a better reference than the one I just laid out, but without some objective reference to what the recording "should" sound like, it seems than all we can really talk about is preferences.

For that reason, I think this discussion should really be about whether or not esoteric cables create an audible difference. My answer is a rather emphatic "NO," unless the cable in question has been engineered in such a way to create a very specific alteration to the frequency response of the signal passing through the cable. An example of this is a cable that has something in its design that deliberately rolls off high frequency content, essentially a kind of built in EQ. So to qualify things further, I think we should narrow the discussion to those cables that attempt to pass along the signal in its purest possible form, unaltered in any way. Most speaker cables are designed to do this, even cheap lamp cord.

So why is my answer an emphatic "NO"? For two reasons. The first, and the most open to challenge, is because I not only understand the science of how sound is recorded and reproduced, I also understand the science around how we as human beings process the things we hear. That last is probably the most salient to this discussion, as all human beings are tremendously affected by confirmation bias and expectation bias (look those up if you are not familiar). These two factors explain almost perfectly the results of listening tests, both sighted and blind, when it comes to testing claims such as "cable A sounds better than cable B." Double blind tests of these types of products invariably have the same results - no one is able to reliably hear differences between cheap "included in the box" cables and those that cost thousands of dollars (unless, of course, the cable has an obvious - and measurable - affect on things such as frequency response). This makes sense, as confirmation and expectation bias are no longer factors in the test. However, non-blinded tests - where people are aware of exactly what they are listening to - often do produce results where subjects claim to hear obvious and dramatic differences in sound (usually, but not always). It is not really a surprise when one understands exactly how both of these biases work toward influencing our perceptions. If we expect to hear a difference, we usually do. If we have already made up our minds that one "should" sound better than the other, it is not surprising that the results confirm our suppositions. The only way around these two very human - and very real - factors is the double blind test.

This brings me directly to my second reason. I have conducted many blind and non-blinded tests, and I keep getting more and more evidence to support the above conclusion. I have had this particular scenario play out many many times: a person (or group of persons) swear up and down that they heard many obvious and dramatic differences between product A and product B, when all along they were only listening to product A and nothing was ever switched. Nothing was changed at all, yet people still claimed to have heard dramatic differences. What could possibly explain this except for expectation and confirmation bias? Whenever double blind tests are conducted, however, with volume levels carefully matched, the preference results invariably come down to the same that would result from random chance. In other words, guessing.

The positive here is that we don't need to worry about buying expensive cables to get the best sound. That money would be much better spent on better speakers or on acoustic treatments, which can be definitively demonstrated to affect the quality of reproduced sound smile.gif

FYI, despite my Panamorph / Folded Space credentials here on the Forum, my day job is actually that of film composer and sound designer / surround mixer for motion pictures (www.jsmusicandsound.com), so hopefully these "other" credentials help add some legitimacy to my comments wink.gif

Thanks for the great ideas here.
post #67 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

"Improvement" is a subjective thing. The question should probably be altered to, " did they create a difference in sound quality." Why should we assume that something that alters sound quality has "improved" it? Unless comparing to the original master recording played back in the original mix studio on the original mix monitors, it is almost impossible to determine what offers an objective "improvement" in quality. Perhaps someone here can posit a better reference than the one I just laid out, but without some objective reference to what the recording "should" sound like, it seems than all we can really talk about is preferences.

For that reason, I think this discussion should really be about whether or not esoteric cables create an audible difference. My answer is a rather emphatic "NO," unless the cable in question has been engineered in such a way to create a very specific alteration to the frequency response of the signal passing through the cable. An example of this is a cable that has something in its design that deliberately rolls off high frequency content, essentially a kind of built in EQ. So to qualify things further, I think we should narrow the discussion to those cables that attempt to pass along the signal in its purest possible form, unaltered in any way. Most speaker cables are designed to do this, even cheap lamp cord.

So why is my answer an emphatic "NO"? For two reasons. The first, and the most open to challenge, is because I not only understand the science of how sound is recorded and reproduced, I also understand the science around how we as human beings process the things we hear. That last is probably the most salient to this discussion, as all human beings are tremendously affected by confirmation bias and expectation bias (look those up if you are not familiar). These two factors explain almost perfectly the results of listening tests, both sighted and blind, when it comes to testing claims such as "cable A sounds better than cable B." Double blind tests of these types of products invariably have the same results - no one is able to reliably hear differences between cheap "included in the box" cables and those that cost thousands of dollars (unless, of course, the cable has an obvious - and measurable - affect on things such as frequency response). This makes sense, as confirmation and expectation bias are no longer factors in the test. However, non-blinded tests - where people are aware of exactly what they are listening to - often do produce results where subjects claim to hear obvious and dramatic differences in sound (usually, but not always). It is not really a surprise when one understands exactly how both of these biases work toward influencing our perceptions. If we expect to hear a difference, we usually do. If we have already made up our minds that one "should" sound better than the other, it is not surprising that the results confirm our suppositions. The only way around these two very human - and very real - factors is the double blind test.

This brings me directly to my second reason. I have conducted many blind and non-blinded tests, and I keep getting more and more evidence to support the above conclusion. I have had this particular scenario play out many many times: a person (or group of persons) swear up and down that they heard many obvious and dramatic differences between product A and product B, when all along they were only listening to product A and nothing was ever switched. Nothing was changed at all, yet people still claimed to have heard dramatic differences. What could possibly explain this except for expectation and confirmation bias? Whenever double blind tests are conducted, however, with volume levels carefully matched, the preference results invariably come down to the same that would result from random chance. In other words, guessing.

The positive here is that we don't need to worry about buying expensive cables to get the best sound. That money would be much better spent on better speakers or on acoustic treatments, which can be definitively demonstrated to affect the quality of reproduced sound smile.gif

FYI, despite my Panamorph / Folded Space credentials here on the Forum, my day job is actually that of film composer and sound designer / surround mixer for motion pictures (www.jsmusicandsound.com), so hopefully these "other" credentials help add some legitimacy to my comments wink.gif

Thanks for the great ideas here.
post #68 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

What a load cables manufacturer are a rip off just like Louis Vitton $1500 for a plastic bag made in CHINA.

Snobs will be snobs

While I also think cable manufacturers claims are blown way out of proportion I do think cables can sound different. I remember many years ago changing from what was probably a 16 or 18 gauge zip wire to the original monster cable there was a large increase in bass response. That seems obvious considering the size difference. But after a few years I thought maybe if I spent a bit more money I could again increase the sound to the same extent as the MC so I spent 4x as much for Audio Quest type 6 cable. It was good but the improvement/change was not as drastic. The overall balance of the sound was more even than with the MC. The MC seemed to be very bass heavy! That being said I have tried much more expensive cables with no real change in perceived quality. When I needed to buy new cable because of a configuration change which required longer cables I chose Canare 4s11 cable. It is as good or better than any cable I have every used or tested and the cost is very low especially compared to the exotic brands.

And just to comment on the above quote....while I agree the Louis Vuitton bags and all other products are much to expensive, none of there products are made in China! I work for Louis Vuitton in Barcelona and can assure you that this in not correct. wink.gif All manufacturing is done in France, Spain, Italy and the USA.....
post #69 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That's the kind of subjective observation that leads to errant conclusions. Since you had no ability to perform a blind A/B test, the test is scientifically invalid. As for imaging, here is a quote from a Stereophile review of a $40 pair of bookshelf speakers from Dayton: "I heard an impressively large soundstage, good image separation, and a very fine sense of momentum and flow, the up-tempo track moving steadily along with no hint of temporal distortions." That's all just audiophile speak for "I was listening to a pair of speakers". Speaker cables are incapable of improving a speaker's imaging. That's up to the speaker's placement, the room treatments, the volume level and the listening position.

Actually, the sound is different, it is known that the more expensive the better, the cheaper it is. The character voices are expensive vary. Some of the meat. Some highlights some sound out of tune is not right here.
post #70 of 407
What's even funnier is, most speakers, receivers, amps, etc... use the most basic copper cabling for their internals. So, while someone goes and hooks up $1,000 dollar speaker wire to their speakers, the internal wiring that goes to the actual driver is of the most basic construction and materials. Even most high end speakers use some basic, copper cable inside their enclosures. So even if these expensive cables made a difference, they're not going to make a difference unless you swap out all of the internal wiring in your speakers and likely upgrade the components of the internal crossover.

Then talk about a huge gauge power wire, when all of the internal wiring inside of your receiver is tiny, in comparision to the $1,000 dollar power cable you bought. You can't really argue with these points.
post #71 of 407
Most of my calls are made in China. No. I have to be lower.
post #72 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

You echo what I said a few posts ago so of course I agree. However, I'm not sure if "quality" is necessary in your question here since the improvement of sound would be an increase in its quality.

I think your point is valid. I was using the term "quality" defined as "the essential nature of something," but I see where you are coming from smile.gif
post #73 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Johnson View Post

While I also think cable manufacturers claims are blown way out of proportion I do think cables can sound different. I remember many years ago changing from what was probably a 16 or 18 gauge zip wire to the original monster cable there was a large increase in bass response. That seems obvious considering the size difference. .

While I have no desire to tell you your subjective assessment is factually "wrong," this strikes me as a clear case of expectation bias. The cable is thicker, and bass notes sound "bigger and thicker," so therefore the Monster Cable must be capable of passing more bass. And therefore you heard exactly what you expected to hear. Yet this has no basis in any kind of physical reality regarding how signals are passed through speaker cables. I'm not even suggesting that this a conscious thing. It happens to ALL of us unconsciously and consciously - we ALL hear what we expect to hear. As I mentioned previously, the only way to remove expectation bias as a factor is to do these comparisons blind.

One of the very first tests I ever did was to compare the top of the line Monster Cable to the cheapest stuff I could get at the hardware store, back when I worked at Soundtrack here in Colorado Springs. The other salespeople were all convinced that the Monster sounded better, but when I swapped cables without telling people which was which no one could hear any difference at all.

Speaking of working retail, here is the dirty truth. The reason that there was an explosion of so many esoteric high end cable brands during the 90s is because profit margins on actual AV components started getting thinner and thinner, and the A/V retailers started turning to overpriced accessories and warranties to bolster profits. It was almost impossible to make money on the stereo components and televisions themselves. Monster started this trend, became very successful, and then other companies started following suit. In my 8 years of retail experience I saw the commissions on the actual A/V components shrink down to barely 3% of the retail price (if you were lucky), while commissions on high end interconnects and extended warranties were usually 20% - or more! In fact, at Soundtrack one could get fired if their warranty and Monster Cable percentage of sales was less than 10% of overall volume. It was in response to this incredible pressure to sell more Monster Cable that I conducted the aforementioned test. We also had a line of freeze-dried (!) video cables that people swore improved picture quality. Again, I put this to the test. And once again, no one was able to tell any difference when they did not know which cable was being used. Yet the other salespeople kept telling themselves their was a real improvement, probably so they could sleep better at night. Here we run into another very human phenomenon - cognitive dissonance.

My own cognitive dissonance forced me to quit retail, go into the actual sound recording / mixing business, and start a company called Integrity Home Theater in the early 2000s. I left the company I started about 5 years ago, but the same statement I wrote back in 2004 is still prominently featured on the web page: "No pushing extended warranties or overpriced accessories. Ever go into an electronics store and feel pressured to spend more money than you did on the product for accessories and extended warranties? The reason why is that pricey speaker cables, interconnects, and warranties are MASSIVELY PROFITABLE to the dealer. It is not because they are a good deal or necessity for the consumer. We have made it a policy to never push these types of items."

Even though Integrity Home Theater is behind me, I still stand by the above statement as the truth as to why salespeople and companies spend so much time trying to convince you that some outrageously priced product is worth the $$$. What led me to this conclusion? Eight years of being force fed this stuff, then actually putting it to the test only to find that the Emperor had no clothes.
post #74 of 407
My skepticism about the effectiveness of real-deal exotic cables is also grounded in (admittedly subjective) personal experience. Once upon a time I made a hobby of hanging out at a friend's high-end stereo shop, the now defunct Ocean State Audio. Their main product lines were Krell and Mark Levinson, speakers included offerings from ProAC and the infamous Apogee Grand - yes, the year was 1993 and Enya "Sail Away" was the latest audiophile test track! I had recently purchased a new stereo from the store across the street, Stereo Discount Center. I bought Sony ES gear - twin monoblock TAN-77ES amplifiers and a Sony CDP-X7ESD CD player. No preamp, just the shortest possible interconnects from the CD player to the amp. I also bought a pair of Canadian speakers, the Image Concept 200. They earned a Stereophile Class C rating, I mated them with a pair of B&W Acoustitune subwoofers, one sub per speaker. It was as brutally minimalist and pragmatic a high-end system as I could afford and to my ears it outperformed both the Krell/ProAc combo as well as the Mark Levinson/Apogee Grand combo. Today I understand the reason for this: The Sony amps were as over-engineered as the Krell, so was the CD player. The difference? The speakers really thrived once they were mated to their own subwoofer and the twin 5" woofers no longer had to perform deep bass duty. All the gear was top quality and selected through exhaustive A/B testing, which simply involved closing my eyes. I rejected an alternative system that included Adcom amps instead of Sony ES and B&W speakers instead of the Image.

I had that system for about a decade, and the one thing I am certain of is that speaker cable never made a difference in how it sounded. I tried everything, I read about a fad where Cat 5 cable was being unwound and braided into speaker cable. That had "me" written all over it, so I spent a night briading Cat 5 strands. How about using jumper cables? I did it. Eventually I gave up on the idea that speaker cable swapping was making any difference whatsoever. I started buying 12 gauge extension cords. Across the street at Ocean State Audio, things were different. The gear was supposed to be world-class, no holds barred. The speaker cables cost a pretty penny. The magic simply never happened. If a speaker cable is all it would take to elevate the esoteric systems to a level of sonic reproduction that was above the Japanese electronics I had purchased across the street, it never made itself evident. I suggested at one point that an entire octave was missing from a Sly and Robbie bass line. The Apogee Grand included two subwoofer modules and my friend Bruce, the owner of OSA, told me that if the Apgee's were not reproducing bass that I heard on my system, then what I was hearing at home is "imaginary bass". Bruce was a good guy but that was too much to take. What happened next is what was really telling. Bruce proceeded to swap out speaker cables in a search for the missing bass. It never appeared. Now mind you that my own system was a pure signal path, no preamp... and the passive B&W subwoofers were matched to my speakers in terms of efficiency. There was no way for my to "crank the bass" in my system, I belonged to the church of flat response, still do.

To this day I remember Bruce swapping cables that cost more than my whole stereo system, looking for that imaginary bass line. Meanwhile back at home everything worked great, and my speaker cable was nothing more than 12 gauge extension cord, the same thing I use to this day.

By the way, Stereo Discount Center is still in business in Providence RI and is owned my my friend Stu Powers, who was their resident geek back in '93 when I shopped there. He's taken care of me over the years, and after all this time for his own personal stereo, he ended up hunting down and buying the same system I put together way back then, that's his main system today. He's a great guy and his store is about as independent as it gets, cool used gear too if you want to check out some classic receivers and turntables.
Edited by imagic - 2/28/13 at 5:52pm
post #75 of 407
High $$ speaker cable is only intended to separate a fool from his $$. period. No audible difference has ever been proven, scientifically.
It makes me wonder about the very origin of this thread... the editor of AVS not making that statement himself. Is the advertising $ more important to you than the SCIENCE ?
post #76 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post

High $$ speaker cable is only intended to separate a fool from his $$. period. No audible difference has ever been proven, scientifically.
It makes me wonder about the very origin of this thread... the editor of AVS not making that statement himself. Is the advertising $ more important to you than the SCIENCE ?

Perhaps you are misreading the headline. If it said "Have You Heard that Exotic Audio Cables Improve Sound Quality?" it would be one thing. The headline says "Have You Heard Exotic Audio Cables Improve Sound Quality?" as in have you ever heard exotic cables make a difference. He's asking about people's personal experience. Based on your answer, I would guess your personal experience is the same as your science-based opinion.
post #77 of 407
I can divide cables into 3 groups - poorly made, normal and over the top. I don't really find differences between normal and over the top. Poorly made cable simply are cheaper materials that are flawed.

What I do find interesting is not the cables themselves (beyond meeting certain specs) but the connectors used. From less expensive metals up to gold plated and levels of quality within each. I think the connectors tell a bit more about what you will get out of your cabling. Some people don't realize that certain types of metals are not the best conductors when used with other types of metals. Alumnium ports with gold jacks is a bad combo over time as oxidation happens creating poorer and less consistent throughput.

An inexpensive properly shielded spec cable works great if the connectors are attached properly and match the component's ports. Not much more really can be said.

Just more peanuts from the gallery.
post #78 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Postgauge matters more.

Yes Gauge and short speaker cables as for connectors just no connectors are even better just the copper :)

post #79 of 407
IMHO, most audiophiles and videophiles have a bit of OCD. As such, I wouldn't trust our eyes and ears too much.

I remember once I thought I could hear certain frequencies better in one ear, had my hearing tested twice - both times was near perfect and both times the slightly worse ear was the one I thought to be the good one.
Then one day this sensation just disappeared.
post #80 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Johnson View Post

While I also think cable manufacturers claims are blown way out of proportion I do think cables can sound different. I remember many years ago changing from what was probably a 16 or 18 gauge zip wire to the original monster cable there was a large increase in bass response. That seems obvious considering the size difference. But after a few years I thought maybe if I spent a bit more money I could again increase the sound to the same extent as the MC so I spent 4x as much for Audio Quest type 6 cable. It was good but the improvement/change was not as drastic. The overall balance of the sound was more even than with the MC. The MC seemed to be very bass heavy! That being said I have tried much more expensive cables with no real change in perceived quality. When I needed to buy new cable because of a configuration change which required longer cables I chose Canare 4s11 cable. It is as good or better than any cable I have every used or tested and the cost is very low especially compared to the exotic brands.

And just to comment on the above quote....while I agree the Louis Vuitton bags and all other products are much to expensive, none of there products are made in China! I work for Louis Vuitton in Barcelona and can assure you that this in not correct. wink.gif All manufacturing is done in France, Spain, Italy and the USA.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

While I have no desire to tell you your subjective assessment is factually "wrong," this strikes me as a clear case of expectation bias. The cable is thicker, and bass notes sound "bigger and thicker," so therefore the Monster Cable must be capable of passing more bass. And therefore you heard exactly what you expected to hear. Yet this has no basis in any kind of physical reality regarding how signals are passed through speaker cables. I'm not even suggesting that this a conscious thing. It happens to ALL of us unconsciously and consciously - we ALL hear what we expect to hear. As I mentioned previously, the only way to remove expectation bias as a factor is to do these comparisons blind.

One of the very first tests I ever did was to compare the top of the line Monster Cable to the cheapest stuff I could get at the hardware store, back when I worked at Soundtrack here in Colorado Springs. The other salespeople were all convinced that the Monster sounded better, but when I swapped cables without telling people which was which no one could hear any difference at all.

Speaking of working retail, here is the dirty truth. The reason that there was an explosion of so many esoteric high end cable brands during the 90s is because profit margins on actual AV components started getting thinner and thinner, and the A/V retailers started turning to overpriced accessories and warranties to bolster profits. It was almost impossible to make money on the stereo components and televisions themselves. Monster started this trend, became very successful, and then other companies started following suit. In my 8 years of retail experience I saw the commissions on the actual A/V components shrink down to barely 3% of the retail price (if you were lucky), while commissions on high end interconnects and extended warranties were usually 20% - or more! In fact, at Soundtrack one could get fired if their warranty and Monster Cable percentage of sales was less than 10% of overall volume. It was in response to this incredible pressure to sell more Monster Cable that I conducted the aforementioned test. We also had a line of freeze-dried (!) video cables that people swore improved picture quality. Again, I put this to the test. And once again, no one was able to tell any difference when they did not know which cable was being used. Yet the other salespeople kept telling themselves their was a real improvement, probably so they could sleep better at night. Here we run into another very human phenomenon - cognitive dissonance.

My own cognitive dissonance forced me to quit retail, go into the actual sound recording / mixing business, and start a company called Integrity Home Theater in the early 2000s. I left the company I started about 5 years ago, but the same statement I wrote back in 2004 is still prominently featured on the web page: "No pushing extended warranties or overpriced accessories. Ever go into an electronics store and feel pressured to spend more money than you did on the product for accessories and extended warranties? The reason why is that pricey speaker cables, interconnects, and warranties are MASSIVELY PROFITABLE to the dealer. It is not because they are a good deal or necessity for the consumer. We have made it a policy to never push these types of items."

Even though Integrity Home Theater is behind me, I still stand by the above statement as the truth as to why salespeople and companies spend so much time trying to convince you that some outrageously priced product is worth the $$$. What led me to this conclusion? Eight years of being force fed this stuff, then actually putting it to the test only to find that the Emperor had no clothes.

While I appreciate you pointing out my obvious "expectation bias" and "cognitive dissonance", it would also be worth pointing out that my post as a whole tended to agree with your position. Reading further into my post it was obvious that I had come to the conclusion that more money/dubious technology did not equate to improvement/change. At that point I chose to buy what seemed to be a sound and broadcast industry standard cable. Instead of cherry picking something in a post to find fault or make your argument maybe try to take the post as a whole. I don't mean to offend or be combative.
Edited by Neal Johnson - 3/1/13 at 4:13am
post #81 of 407
I have differences in high end cables vs standard cables.

Basically it comes down to this for me. I have been in the business a very long time. I have tested miles of cables from entry level up to 36k speaker wire. I have listened to all given cables in systems from entry level to extreme high end.
Today I sit here to share with you guys that fundamentals are what's important. Getting the signal to pass from one place to another with in spec. Once you get that job done correctly , there is nothing more anything can do to make it "better".

High end cables don't make sound quality improvements , they should only sound as good as the source connected. You can't make better sound out of thin air or Silver. You can't wind the wires a certain way and expect better results. You can't throw more and more money at it , dress it up and think you have better sound.
What is completely missed here is fundamentals. So for an example will be since it's the hottest topic on this matter is speaker wire. You got a amp and a speaker that needs to be connected. You got Watts , ohm load and length. Once you provide a conductor that can handle the load at the distance the signal must travel , your done basically. The only other thing you can do is make sure if a frequency of lets go extreme is 20khz and another one is 20hz and in real time they happened at the exact same time , then both frequency's need to arrive at the speaker at the same time so they can be replayed at the same time.
What happens in the speaker after that the external speaker wire can't change. It can only do it's job to perfection.
Now another factor of this conductor is not to introduce any outside EMI or RF into the signal when passing the actual recorded signal. If a speaker can shield out outside interference and pass along 100% of the signal it was given , now your finally done. This conductor is now the correct one for the given job.

So in all the different environments these conductors have to live in , They must do their job . So who makes these speaker wires that do so? How does one know that this given conductor is going to do it's job and allow us as end users to feel comfortable that it's getting the job done.

Do you really know why most of us go out and test wires? We are tone chasers and want nothing more then given system to perform it's best. Most are willing to spend what it takes to get those beautiful speakers to perform the best they can.
I don't knock anyone who buys expensive cables with this in mind. How are most people supposed to know these things? Hell I'm in the bussiness for 15 years and been a hobbiest all my life and I can't honestly tell you that conductor A is better then Conductor B without a shadow of a doubt. I have been trained by countless companies , I have read tons of articles on this subject. I have been involved in many un blind and blind listening tests. I have talked to Engineers from many respected companies about this very topic and got different answers.

So for me personally and professionally I come to a unclosed conclusion that does wire make a difference? Yes it does because it has to do it's job correctly. Do I believe in high end cables? Not fully as I have seen so many over priced cables and listened to so many of them not perform any better then cables costing a lot less. I have done tests with entry level cables that performed exactly the same as super high end models.

I wish these cable companies would actually offer what they fully believe in to be a perfect conductor. Once they figure out how to get the signal no matter if it's digital or analog right , stop there as using higher end materials don't make any performance difference. I also speak of this without a meter or test equipment. If I can't see or hear any differences , I don't care if a meter tells me there is on not. It makes no difference to me unless I can experience it.

I'm a musician and I can hear huge differences in different guitars , strings , amps , effects etc. Same goes with mic's speakers , drums etc. I don't need a meter to tell me that a les Paul sounds different then a Strat. These cables in a home system has to keep the Les Paul sounding as it did when it was recorded.
post #82 of 407
I have no idea since I never really had super-hi-end equipment. If I had it maybe I'd have a chance to hear the difference.
post #83 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteos View Post

There should be a fith option... I've never heard them and I know it makes no difference.

Exotic cables are the epitome of snake oil for the audio industry

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
Excellent article. I liked that a guy who thought that breaking in a $2,500 power cord made all the difference in the world and by the end of the article, he basically proved himself wrong. If you read the results in the spreadsheets towards the end, you can see many excuses that these listeners were making about the test. Whether it was they needed to hear their own equipment, or their own music selections, the mirror to the right of one guy was a distraction, and of course, it took too long to switch the cables around according to one person, they all had excuses so they wouldn't have to admit that a damn power cable is not worth $2,500 compared to a stock one. They couldn't tell the differences. And if they could, they forgot about it by the time they switched to a new cable. One guy even said, he could definitely tell a difference. He just couldn't put into words what the actual distinguishing characteristics were. That should tell you right there that these guys are full of crap.
post #84 of 407
Would an ideal system have no influence on the original source? Adequate power from your mains to power your system would be necessary of course. But power cables/distribution/conditioning/re-generation, front end sources, interconnects, pre-amps, amps, speakers & cables, equipment racks, listening room, isolation pucks, and other stuff? Is this not adding to and/or subtracting from the equation that is our listening environment? Trying to solve one problem maybe creating another by spending $ cables, I'm guilty, I would like a do over!

For example:[ CD=0 + interconnect=0 + preamp=0 + inerconnect=0 + amp=0 + speaker wire=0 + speaker=0 + room=0 ]=0 instead of:
[ CD=-1 + interconnect=1 + preamp=0 + inerconnect=1 + amp=-1 + speaker wire=2 + speaker=-1 + room=-1 ]=0

Is such a 2-channel system feasible? I mean, I must be dreamin'. . .
post #85 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Johnson View Post


While I appreciate you pointing out my obvious "expectation bias" and "cognitive dissonance", it would also be worth pointing out that my post as a whole tended to agree with your position. Reading further into my post it was obvious that I had come to the conclusion that more money/dubious technology did not equate to improvement/change. At that point I chose to buy what seemed to be a sound and broadcast industry standard cable. Instead of cherry picking something in a post to find fault or make your argument maybe try to take the post as a whole. I don't mean to offend or be combative.

You are correct- I did kind of "cherry pick" your post and essentially singled out a statement I could use to make my broader point. Like you, it was not my intent to offend or be combative (which is why I said that these factors influence all of us- including myself). However, after reading your reply and going back and reading my post I can see how what I wrote can be interpreted as condescending (or even a personal attack). Sincere apologies.
post #86 of 407
I voted i didn't have enough experience to say. That, for me, is the most correct option. I've never heard "exotic, very expensive cable. I bought my first speakers in 1998 (Energy C-6 fronts and 3 lesser energy speakers for the 5.1 system). I started out with lamp cord and was happy. After talking with the salesman again, i was hooked on trying better cables. I bought some MIT cables. Thick jacket with some "box" in the middle of the cable with arrows for direction. I heard a difference between the wires. I'm not saying it was better. To the best of my recollection, it did not sound any better, just quieter at the same volume level. I was told they needed break in. Now, at this point, given all that i know, i cannot say if my perceived difference in sound was real or imagined but my memory and brain tells me it was real. Again, not better but different. Of course, after break in the cables were MUCH better! Ha, i meant to say after i broke in my ears, everything was perfect. Since then, i have tried kimber cable and 12 g monoprice wire and have heard absolutely no difference in audio quality with anything. In my experience, the only time i had a wire make any difference was for a swubwoofer. I had a 30' run, and for whatever reason, my sub "popped" when i turned on a light switch. I bought a different cable, i'll assume with better shielding but don't know, and the problem went away. That original salesman is a friend of mine. I've had conversations with him about wire and offered him $500 in a blind test on the gear of his choosing and whatever wire he wants vs the wire i supply. He won't do it. He actually believes there is a difference though! When we spoke about HDMI he said "Chris, i SAW the difference, it's real! I said "OK, let's do it again, same source material, 30 second clip only you don't get to know which wire i'm using" Again, he wouldn't bite. Some people just don't want to pull their head out of the sand.
post #87 of 407
Curious- does he give a reason for not taking you up on the offer?
post #88 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

You are correct- I did kind of "cherry pick" your post and essentially singled out a statement I could use to make my broader point. Like you, it was not my intent to offend or be combative (which is why I said that these factors influence all of us- including myself). However, after reading your reply and going back and reading my post I can see how what I wrote can be interpreted as condescending (or even a personal attack). Sincere apologies.

No problem at all John, thanks for the comment....
post #89 of 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

Curious- does he give a reason for not taking you up on the offer?

No he doesn't. This guy is a friend, and a great guy. But, he's a salesman, and a good one at that. To put on my phsycologist hat for a moment, my guess is that when he sells people cable (and he does not sell uberpriced or even really high priced stuff) he can do so and sleep at night because he perceives the value in it. If he takes me up on my offer, that illusion is shattered and he will be stuck with a moral dilemma. Now, i have no morals so if it was me i would happily sell everyone cable all the way to the bank but i think it is a concern for him. He really is about as honest a salesman as you would meet. For perspective, he would sell a customer a tv and speakers and sell him an hdmi for $30-$40 and interconnects for the speakers for $30-$50. Name brand but i can't remember the brand. Certainly nothing outrageous and nice enough cables to look at and work with. Nobody's getting "ripped off" even though they could have the same performance for $10.
post #90 of 407
Thank you Scott for posting this! I have really enjoyed reading peoples comments on this topic. That survey says it all.... biggrin.gif

What happens when everything is wireless? Exotic invisible cables?...
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