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$25K buys a good TV, but 4K's benefits are slim

post #1 of 30
2/27/13 at 4:21pm
Thread Starter 
Cnet review. Good thing Sony ships a server with some 4K stuff on it.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/sony-xbr-84x900/4505-6482_7-35431618.html
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post #2 of 30
3/6/13 at 2:03am
WOW, is anybody paying attention to this article.

A big I told you so doesn't really get it done in this case.
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post #3 of 30
3/6/13 at 6:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post

WOW, is anybody paying attention to this article.

A big I told you so doesn't really get it done in this case.
We paid attention 5 days ago, you didn't. wink.gif http://www.avsforum.com/t/1309492/4k-by-2k-or-quad-hd-lots-of-rumors-thoughts/2850#post_23022890
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post #4 of 30
3/6/13 at 3:39pm
What a joke. I wouldn't even pay $25,000 for a new car.
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post #5 of 30
3/7/13 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

What a joke. I wouldn't even pay $25,000 for a new car.

Not everyone is in the market for nothing nicer than a Chevy Cruze (not a bad car, by the way). BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Cadillac, et al. sell a lot of cars annually.

Same goes for the equivalent in TVs.
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post #6 of 30
3/7/13 at 4:55pm
I see your point, but I really do think it's a complete waste of money to spend that much on a television - or even $12,000 on an OLED set.
Flat panel technology is usually outdated within a year or two, and the price - especially of new technology - drops so quickly.
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post #7 of 30
3/7/13 at 7:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I see your point, but I really do think it's a complete waste of money to spend that much on a television - or even $12,000 on an OLED set.
Flat panel technology is usually outdated within a year or two, and the price - especially of new technology - drops so quickly.

At least it's an 84 inch.

It's not like FP tech has become outdated withing a year - the technology keeps improving, manufacturing of large glass has become more efficient, (which drives the price of the panels down) and it's marketing's job to convince you that you need a new television.

Remember when $10,000 bought you a 46 inch LED in 2004?

http://www.engadget.com/2004/08/19/sonys-10-000-qualia-tv/

or 13k for a 70 inch rear projection tv


Or, if you wanted a 71 inch plasma monitor back in 2006 - $50,000.Today, you can find this set if you shop around for $5000

http://uncrate.com/stuff/lg-mw-71py10-71-inch-plasma-television/

Good times...
Edited by myoda - 3/7/13 at 7:21pm
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post #8 of 30
3/21/13 at 9:43pm
Large LCDs around 70-80 inch are around 6k for something comparable as far as near top of the line stuff, esp 80 plus inchers.

And look at how long lcd has been around...............add in OLED and 4K and you will never see a reasonable pricepoint.

Then total lack of content.................... http://tech2.in.com/opinions/hdtvs/theres-no-point-in-buying-a-4k-tv-this-year/774772


These are for people with more money than common sense....................
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post #9 of 30
3/21/13 at 9:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

We paid attention 5 days ago, you didn't. wink.gif http://www.avsforum.com/t/1309492/4k-by-2k-or-quad-hd-lots-of-rumors-thoughts/2850#post_23022890


Heh Fanboy.................with all the negative articles piling up you starting to understand yet ?

These aren't my personal opinions , these are industry insiders...................
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post #10 of 30
3/22/13 at 4:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post

Heh Fanboy.................with all the negative articles piling up you starting to understand yet ?

These aren't my personal opinions , these are industry insiders...................
What a comeback. rolleyes.gif

I just pointed out you where late in paying attention then (5 days late) and you are late in responding now (2 weeks late).

The negative articles (and forum posts) have been piling up for years already, nothing new there, just you who are late in joining the discussion. A discussion that is fading out because the only thing that is left is the proof in the form of 4K displays.

Never in the time of attending consumer discussion forums have I seen such a negative attack on any new technology development as the protests against 4K, 8K and HFR.
I guess we have come to the point of "Good Enough" and the negative people are the only people with passion enough to fight.
Once upon a time all new technology developments where greeted with curiosity and enthusiasm. Now people go; "it is not necessary", "it is useless".

It is because the CEM are too late/slow to release new technological developments so they are "discussed to death" (4K and OLED) before we have the opportunity to test them?
Are the CEMs confused and don't know which direction to take?

What we do know is that AV Forums (actually all tech forums) around the world are slowly dying.

Why is that happening?
Economy? Everything is "good enough? Facebook has stolen the participants from the Forums? Something in the air that make people loose interest in Consumer Technology? Etc, etc.
Edited by coolscan - 3/22/13 at 4:46am
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post #11 of 30
3/22/13 at 2:03pm
Guess I got a life, you ?

Never has there such a negative attack on any new tech...........the hurdles and costs are just too much.

Oled has been the so called up and coming tech for what 5 years ?

80 inch regular hd sets are still 6k and above.......................

The content problem is insurmountable as pointed out by now dozens of those in the know.............

pardon me for taking their info as factual and yours as heresay..........................

4k will never have a reasonable price point and will likely never never have content like we are used to..............

Just look at OLED, hell 4k may never be mainstream .................. right now it is joke and will continue to be so

until some tech comes along to allow its content distribution................

This is the reality of the situation..............

As far as late to the discussion...............I waited till I saw several of these sets in person before I spoke.
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post #12 of 30
3/22/13 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck 
Guess I got a life, you ?
So folks who are regulars on a Forum do not have a life?
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post #13 of 30
3/22/13 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post

Guess I got a life, you ?
I doubt you have, or else you wouldn't take the time to troll.
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Never has there such a negative attack on any new tech...........the hurdles and costs are just too much.
CEM management have been biting their nails too long and been too unsure what to do. The Tech has been there for years.
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Oled has been the so called up and coming tech for what 5 years ?
Complete failure by certain companies.
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80 inch regular hd sets are still 6k and above.......................
Size is costly to manufacture.............UHD not so much.
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The content problem is insurmountable as pointed out by now dozens of those in the know.............
In less than six months you will have more 4K content and players than you even imagine today. Maybe already in April.
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pardon me for taking their info as factual and yours as heresay..........................
You're pardoned......you are just badly informed.
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4k will never have a reasonable price point and will likely never never have content like we are used to..............
4K TVs will be so cheap so fast that the Japanese and Korean CEM will tear their hair out and cry on the way to the bank to ask for new loans...........fools they are.
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Just look at OLED, hell 4k may never be mainstream .................. right now it is joke and will continue to be so
As I said; you are badly informed. OLED and 4K has nothing to do with each other in technology terms.
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until some tech comes along to allow its content distribution................
The Tech is there.........manufactured and stored............but somebody had some new and good ideas to add to the software...........some companies heard about this and wanted to be in on it.............causes some slight delay.
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This is the reality of the situation..............
Your reality isn't mine............and the guys that make the stuff have a different reality............they have been living in the future with 4K content and hardware for years already.
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As far as late to the discussion...............I waited till I saw several of these sets in person before I spoke.
Bad excuse.......check your posting history in this thread and see what where your response and what you responded to.
And calling people fanbois because they understand something you don't understand isn't nice.

Why do you care if you are so negative? Why not just don't give a damn?

If some of the stuff you claim will never come arrives in the shops in April, May, June ( even if its at least two years too late in my opinion).........you will just look like a impatient fool.

Calm your addictive impatience............you can live fine without this new stuff for some more months ..................until then............... wink.gif

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Maybe this trailer for a 4K-UHD film will cheer you up............watch at Vimeo.

Edited by coolscan - 3/22/13 at 4:33pm
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post #14 of 30
3/22/13 at 7:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Never in the time of attending consumer discussion forums have I seen such a negative attack on any new technology development as the protests against 4K, 8K and HFR.

I've been saying this exact same thing (off site) for a while now. It's perplexing. You'd think a site like this is where you would see the greatest enthusiasm for technological advancement -- instead we're seeing strident resistance.

I think at least part of it stems from the fact that many went on record as saying that consumer 4k displays were a fantasy, and that 4k content would "never" be available. Instead, we now have plenty of 4k displays coming onto the market -- with native 4k content arriving several years earlier than many anticipated. And as you point out, some 4k content is already here.

The naysayers have nowhere to retreat -- so they're reduced to attacking the technology and predicting its failure. We've seen that before, so it's easy to dismiss.

Thanks for the link to SOJOURNS -- looks like some amazing 4k eye candy!
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post #15 of 30
3/24/13 at 7:47am
@Jetmeck a couple points of fact:

-80" regular HD sets street in the $3xxx price point from Sharp. Not sure why you are saying $6k. I know there are (overpriced) sets like the 75" Samsung at $7k street. But 80" sets are very much out there at pretty reasonable prices.

-Sony just announced MSRP for their smaller 4K sets:
$5000 for the 55"
$7000 for the 65"

With those prices as an opening gambit, and Vizio yet to announce pricing on its already announced 4K sets, I think there is plenty of room for 4K sets to reach mainstream pricing in a year or two. In many ways that's stunning.
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post #16 of 30
3/24/13 at 6:38pm
Can't wait for the "I sit 10ft from my 55inch 4K set and can clearly see the difference!!!" posts...
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post #17 of 30
3/25/13 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post



Never in the time of attending consumer discussion forums have I seen such a negative attack on any new technology development as the protests against 4K, 8K and HFR.
.

Really?

I found the negativity directed at 3D to be far, far more pervasive and harsh than what I see in 4K discussions. Whether we are talking AVS, other forums, or even tech-site comment sections (let alone more general consumer site comments). I don't see much "I hate 4K" at all as I do for "I hate 3D." The negativity in regards to 4K tends to come in the form of people pointing out they are unlikely to see a difference given their screen size/viewing distance. But that it would be nice to have for big screens/closer viewing distances.

Whereas 3D has been blamed for everything from headaches, distraction, worse picture quality and even ruining the movie experiences.
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post #18 of 30
3/25/13 at 6:58am
I don't "hate" 4k, but I'm not going to be dropping any money to get higher resolution video in the home than I have already. Truth be told, I think DVD resolution is fine for watching movies on my TV or HT projector, and even 720p HD is actually overkill for my requirements!

I just bought a new projector, as my old Hitachi WVGA resolution model finally died after 10 years, but it was a perfectly fine projector for my use, and my enjoyment of the movie was always dependent on the acting ability of the players and the skills of the directors, rather than the relatively limited resolution (by today's standards) of the projector.

The replacement projector I bought was the Epson EH-TW550 (750HD in the North American market.) originally, I was looking at getting the Epson EH-TW3600 (Epson 8350) based on all the good reviews, but then I realized I'm not even going to be using the full resolution of a 720p player with my dvd players, much less 1080p. I have no plans to buy a blu-ray player anytime soon. A contrast ratio of 500,000 is fine if you have an abandoned coalmine converted to your projection room, but I'm always going to have a degree of ambient light when viewing in my living room, even in the evening with the lights turned off, so the 5000 contrast ratio of an entry level model will more than do me!

The new projector is 3D ready, and even comes with a set of 3D glasses, which might be fun to check out. But the 3D is just something that happened to be bundled in. If I could have gotten the same projector in 2D only with a reasonable discount, I would have undoubtedly chosen that -- but I'm not worried, given the entry level price of the model to start with.

The thing is, new tech is all fine and dandy, but clearly not everyone is an enthusiast who is deriving as much pleasure from the technical specs of their set-up as they are from the content they are viewing. Some people (I admit it, I'm one of them) just want to watch the movie. And I strongly suspect most people don't actually need a 4k set, or anything that's even close, to max out their viewing pleasure. Really! smile.gif

But I suppose in 10 years time you won't be able to buy anything less than a 16k set. And you'll get no respect for it!
Edited by plugger2 - 3/25/13 at 7:22am
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post #19 of 30
3/25/13 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Really?

I found the negativity directed at 3D to be far, far more pervasive and harsh than what I see in 4K discussions. Whether we are talking AVS, other forums, or even tech-site comment sections (let alone more general consumer site comments). I don't see much "I hate 4K" at all as I do for "I hate 3D." The negativity in regards to 4K tends to come in the form of people pointing out they are unlikely to see a difference given their screen size/viewing distance. But that it would be nice to have for big screens/closer viewing distances.

Whereas 3D has been blamed for everything from headaches, distraction, worse picture quality and even ruining the movie experiences.
You are probably right.
Just that I didn't follow 3D discussions much, because I thought that 3D was and is still very immature technology lacking resolution, has to be shot live and not post converted and that film makers have to learn how to make 3D movies before they sell them to the public.

Not that I am in any way against 3D, and some movies look ok, but give me 3D with 4K resolution for each eye and only directors that really want to make 3D movies are allowed to do so, and we will be good.
To many directors of 3D movies have been forced by the studios to "shoot" in 3D when they really didn't care for it. You can count all the post converted 3D movies as such, and then some.

Lucky for me, a poster had to enter the thread just after your post and totally unnecessary tell us why he don't want 4K and even 720p is good enough for him.
Not realise that he is just telling us that his image quality bar is much lower for us that have a real interest in 4K and higher resolution. wink.gif
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post #20 of 30
3/25/13 at 11:26am
Will 4K increase PQ with a regular HD TV broadcast? How about with a 3D blu-ray using active technology and one using passive technology?
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post #21 of 30
3/25/13 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Really?

I found the negativity directed at 3D to be far, far more pervasive and harsh than what I see in 4K discussions. Whether we are talking AVS, other forums, or even tech-site comment sections (let alone more general consumer site comments). I don't see much "I hate 4K" at all as I do for "I hate 3D." The negativity in regards to 4K tends to come in the form of people pointing out they are unlikely to see a difference given their screen size/viewing distance. But that it would be nice to have for big screens/closer viewing distances.

Whereas 3D has been blamed for everything from headaches, distraction, worse picture quality and even ruining the movie experiences.

Let me direct a bit of "hate" at 4K for a moment, then.

I want to see it develop and become useful. But in a world where we get 1080p rarely -- on BluRay and from some streaming sources at bitrates that allow for a video quality that some excellent AVS reviews are showing is sometimes near BluRay quality, but often not -- it would be nice if some of the effort were going to a more exciting place than 4K, for which there is virtually no infrastructure to speak of.

Consider instead taking all this effort and making broadcast 1080p / 60. Sure, for film-sourced stuff that could be 1080p / 24 with whatever pull-down business but for sports... I'm tired of the crappy 720p junk and the questionable interlaced stuff....

And guess what? I bet virtually all of us already have 1080p displays.
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post #22 of 30
3/25/13 at 1:14pm
Plugger2 you don't mention the screen size you use with your projector but with all due respect you need to plunk down the $119 for a late model BR player and see what you've been missing. I'll be stunned if you don't notice an obvious, material improvement from DVD.
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post #23 of 30
3/25/13 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post

Plugger2 you don't mention the screen size you use with your projector but with all due respect you need to plunk down the $119 for a late model BR player and see what you've been missing. I'll be stunned if you don't notice an obvious, material improvement from DVD.

It's an 80" wide screen, just under 100" diagonal. Seating is from 10' to 13' away from the screen. It's a pull-down screen in a living room, not a dedicated HT.

Perhaps I would be able to see the difference between a DVD played on a good upscaling blu-ray player through a 1080p projector, compared to the same DVD on my current DVD player through the 720p projector I've just purchased. Given the native resolution of standard DVD, I would expect the difference would be fairly marginal though.

I made sure the new projector I bought was a 3LCD so as to obviate RBE problems (while I'm not particularly sensitive, you never know if a guest watching a movie at your house might be.)

The point I'm making is that once the resolution is good enough that the movie experience becomes immersive (which is true in my set-up even at WVGA resolutions using my recently departed Hitachi), you stop thinking about things like the video set-up and just watch the movie. At least I do. My flat panel TV is a 36" wide full HD, and it's nice for watching TV shows, but for movies I far prefer using the projector set-up. And certainly for me a 720p 3LCD projector beats a full HD or higher DLP projector if RBE is a possibility. Now I think RBE _would_ be distracting and annoying, and therefore would detract from the movie experience.

Apologies to all it might possibly offend, but I'm actually quite satisfied with DVD resolution. Which probably makes even 720p overkill. I'll take more if it is on offer, but I won't plunk down for it. Just like the HT sound system set-up is important and necessary up to a certain point, but once you go past that point, it's all a rapidly diminishing return on investment.

I do appreciate that "certain point" is going to vary from individual to individual. I'm sure there will be some people annoyed and distracted by the limitations and deficiencies of a $25K 4k set.

When a movie comes out that I want to see, but is only released in blu-ray, then it'll be time to buy that blu-ray player I guess. Either that or when my current DVD player goes to Silicon Heaven. Given the rate at which appliances have been failing for me this year, that will soon enough! wink.gif
Edited by plugger2 - 3/25/13 at 6:14pm
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post #24 of 30
3/25/13 at 5:48pm
I agree with coolscan, the amount of negativity about 4k is astounding, and constitutes an interesting topic in itself.
On a more positive note however, I saw my first 4k tv just recently.
It was an LG 84" set for $16,000 in JBHiFI, (an Australian store) which was showing Avatar in 3D.
Even in typical showroom conditions surrounded by other tv's the picture quality was very obvious and very impressive and keep in mind that LG use passive 3D and that Avatar is a 2k movie so it was only a 1080P picture.
Yet the increased sharpness, clarity and detail was clearly visible, to my eyes anyway, and I am not a fan of 3D.
All in all, a very impressive first viewing. smile.gif
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post #25 of 30
3/25/13 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by plugger2 View Post

I don't "hate" 4k, but I'm not going to be dropping any money to get higher resolution video in the home than I have already. Truth be told, I think DVD resolution is fine for watching movies on my TV or HT projector, and even 720p HD is actually overkill for my requirements!

I just bought a new projector, as my old Hitachi WVGA resolution model finally died after 10 years, but it was a perfectly fine projector for my use, and my enjoyment of the movie was always dependent on the acting ability of the players and the skills of the directors, rather than the relatively limited resolution (by today's standards) of the projector.

The replacement projector I bought was the Epson EH-TW550 (750HD in the North American market.) originally, I was looking at getting the Epson EH-TW3600 (Epson 8350) based on all the good reviews, but then I realized I'm not even going to be using the full resolution of a 720p player with my dvd players, much less 1080p. I have no plans to buy a blu-ray player anytime soon. A contrast ratio of 500,000 is fine if you have an abandoned coalmine converted to your projection room, but I'm always going to have a degree of ambient light when viewing in my living room, even in the evening with the lights turned off, so the 5000 contrast ratio of an entry level model will more than do me!

The new projector is 3D ready, and even comes with a set of 3D glasses, which might be fun to check out. But the 3D is just something that happened to be bundled in. If I could have gotten the same projector in 2D only with a reasonable discount, I would have undoubtedly chosen that -- but I'm not worried, given the entry level price of the model to start with.

The thing is, new tech is all fine and dandy, but clearly not everyone is an enthusiast who is deriving as much pleasure from the technical specs of their set-up as they are from the content they are viewing. Some people (I admit it, I'm one of them) just want to watch the movie. And I strongly suspect most people don't actually need a 4k set, or anything that's even close, to max out their viewing pleasure. Really! smile.gif

But I suppose in 10 years time you won't be able to buy anything less than a 16k set. And you'll get no respect for it!

What are you doing here? You don't belong. biggrin.gif
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post #26 of 30
3/25/13 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

What are you doing here? You don't belong. biggrin.gif

I'm part of a new avsforum.com diversity initative program. I'm being bussed in from the <$3000 projectors forum. biggrin.gif
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post #27 of 30
4/1/13 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Never in the time of attending consumer discussion forums have I seen such a negative attack on any new technology development as the protests against 4K, 8K and HFR.

Yes! And I certainly don't like this much either. What happened to the "Can you imagine!" or even "I wonder how it'll shake out" attitudes?
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post #28 of 30
4/11/13 at 12:50pm
I think AVSers are too knowledgable. Where does the high income, low information crowd hang out? I bet there's plenty of 4k enthusiasm there smile.gif
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post #29 of 30
4/11/13 at 1:31pm
Thread Starter 
From a broadcast perspective:

http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/4k-craze-heaven-or-hell
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post #30 of 30
4/12/13 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

From a broadcast perspective:

http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/4k-craze-heaven-or-hell

Thanks for this. Concise and well-written article.
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