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Unofficial "End Of Upgradeitis" front stage build

post #1 of 63
2/27/13 at 11:16pm
Thread Starter 
I figure until I actually get the drivers I will keep this as unofficial. smile.gif I am getting ready to build my cabs though so everything is ready to go when the drivers finally show up.

That being said, I want to make sure I've made the right decision on parts and some input on cab design and such.

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We'll start with room layout.

1) Room is on the smallish side: 128" wide x 276" long x 102" high
A) First row of seating is 12' with second row at 17' (first row is 37 degree angle to center of outside drivers with second row at 26 degrees).

2) LFE will be handled by 6 sealed SI drivers.

3) Parts I've picked out.
A) AE TD15M driver
B) BMS 4550 CD
C) SEOS 12 waveguide

I'm planning on crossing this over at between 50-80hz. I'm kind of torn on this so far. I'm thinking the midbass on the TD's might be better than the SI's so a 50hz xover might be in order. Then again, I've always been content with an 80 hz crossover.

If going with an 80hz crossover, I'm thinking a 3cf sealed enclosure would work perfectly. That gives a -3 db point right at 80hz. I'm thinking this would blend nicely with my sealed SI's? I have plenty of room behind my screen so ported is certainly a viable option as well. I'm also thinking about going really crazy and building a separate chamber in the bottom and mounting a sealed SI 15 in each one firing outward to further smooth out room nodes, but this is for another time. smile.gif

I'm a little nervous on the TD15 and SEOS12 however. The SEOS needs to be crossed above 950, and John recommends crossing the TD15 no higher than 1k. Is this going to leave enough room to blend together nicely? Due to my narrower angle I'm assuming I could get away with a higher crossover, say around 1.2k? Would the TD12M have been a better choice with the SEOS12 and 4550?

I had the chance of listening to a set of current JTR 888's and really like them. I'm really hoping this will trump that setup by a fair margin. I will start building cabs in the next few days so I'll start posting some pics of the progress.

Let the input begin. smile.gif
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post #2 of 63
2/27/13 at 11:35pm
if you can do the bigger ported boxes, why not? then you will have the option of trying different x over settings. i think Bwaslo did a design using the tdm15 already. not sure if it uses the seos 12 or 15. check it out.
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post #3 of 63
2/28/13 at 12:18am
Having built the 4Pi's, and the TD15M's being a very similar driver to the 2226h, I can say the midbass is amazing, and I would definitely cross them lower then 80hz.
From what I read on the Pispeaker forums, Wayne says multiple sound sources are actually a better thing in the modal region, so in theory ported or sealed shouldn't matter for blending.

My 2 cents.
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post #4 of 63
2/28/13 at 4:50am
The farther the port tuning of the mains away from the crossover frequency to the subs the simpler integration will be. IOW I wouldn't shoot for a 50Hz tuning and plan to crossover to subs at that freq.

However depending on your sub EQ flexibility even this can be mitigated.

80-1000 seems like a real narrow pass band for a 15 that capable although I'm sure its efficient as He77!
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post #5 of 63
2/28/13 at 6:41am
I am really looking forward to seeing this build of Bass Addict's take shape! I have been curious as to how the BMS 4550 would perform on a Seos12 or Seos15, compared to the DNA-360. I wonder if the 4550 will out-perform the DNA-360 by quite a large margin?

Bass Addict: What made you want to go with the 4550 over the DNA-360?
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post #6 of 63
2/28/13 at 7:03am
Just as a counterpoint you could tune it higher like 60 Hz, Cross at 70 or 80 Hz, and have a nice little rising response in the upper bass/midbass region. That little bump would make the upper bass sound punchy, which a lot of people like.
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post #7 of 63
2/28/13 at 9:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

if you can do the bigger ported boxes, why not? then you will have the option of trying different x over settings. i think Bwaslo did a design using the tdm15 already. not sure if it uses the seos 12 or 15. check it out.

His design utilizes the TDM15 and SEOS15, hence why I'm asking about integration with the SEOS12. That xover he listed has never been tested, just modeled. I'm sure it would work great, but just something to keep in mind if using that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am really looking forward to seeing this build of Bass Addict's take shape! I have been curious as to how the BMS 4550 would perform on a Seos12 or Seos15, compared to the DNA-360. I wonder if the 4550 will out-perform the DNA-360 by quite a large margin?

Bass Addict: What made you want to go with the 4550 over the DNA-360?

I've spoken with a few people on the differences, and they seem noticeable enough to justify the cost increase. It's all speculation at this point, but I'm feeling it will be worth the extra effort to integrate into the build.

Besides, I really like putting something together a little outside the norm. The DNA360 has been used to death, and I'd like to break out of the mold on that one. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Just as a counterpoint you could tune it higher like 60 Hz, Cross at 70 or 80 Hz, and have a nice little rising response in the upper bass/midbass region. That little bump would make the upper bass sound punchy, which a lot of people like.

That's not a bad idea really. I'll model some enclosures. I'm guessing around a 4cf enclosure tuned to about 50 hz would work out nicely.
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post #8 of 63
2/28/13 at 9:28am
"End of Upgradeitis" is a bold name and statement. Good luck with that. wink.gif

But seriously... this looks like a fun build and a very much needed upgrade from your current front end. smile.gif
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post #9 of 63
2/28/13 at 9:36am
Bass Addict
This will turn out to be a great build. That AE driver, 4550 CD, and the SEOS 12 will be an excellent combination. I am going to build 4 TD12x w/ 4550 and more than likely the SEOS 12 to use as surrounds with my T12's. I am choosing the BMS CD simply b/c it is a close match to my T12's & was only an extra 30 bucks. I bought the AE drivers b/c they are highly respected and they the are sweetest drivers I have seen. Your finished speaker will definately outperform the T8's b/c it is a bigger build all around. smile.gif
Looking forward to watching/reading your progress.
Good Luck
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 2/28/13 at 9:47am
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post #10 of 63
2/28/13 at 9:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

"End of Upgradeitis" is a bold name and statement. Good luck with that. wink.gif

You sound like my friends now, lol.
Quote:
But seriously... this looks like a fun build and a very much needed upgrade from your current front end. smile.gif

biggrin.gif Axiomites everywhere are taking up arms over that statement. I'm just hoping my Axiom surrounds and rear can keep up with the front stage now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Bass Addict
This will turn out to be a great build. That AE driver, 4550 CD, and the SEOS 12 will be an excellent combination. I am going to build 4 TD12x w/ 4550 and more than likely the SEOS 12 to use as surrounds with my T12's. I am choosing the BMS CD simply b/c it is a close match to my T12's & was only an extra 30 bucks. I bought the AE drivers b/c they are highly respected and they are sweetest drivers I have seen. Your finished speaker will definately outperform the T8's b/c it is a bigger build all around. smile.gif
Looking forward to watching/reading your progress.
Good Luck
Chris

Thanks Chris.

I have high hopes for this build. This would never have been possible without the help of many on this forum. I can't thank everyone enough for their input and eagerness to lend information or help.
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post #11 of 63
2/28/13 at 11:11am
Why not use the SEOS15? $60 instead of $28, but would probably be better...

Good luck. This'll be a nice setup!
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post #12 of 63
2/28/13 at 11:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Why not use the SEOS15? $60 instead of $28, but would probably be better...

Good luck. This'll be a nice setup!

Well I would love to use the 15 but from the sounds of it, it is unavailable (or would at least take forever to get here from the sounds of it).?.?

If that's inaccurate information, I would love to know.
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post #13 of 63
2/28/13 at 12:22pm
1. who is going to build your crossover?

2. why did john j. spec the td15m to only 1khz? that driver should work well past that point. perhaps that was his suggested crossover point to the seos 12", which would be a good suggestion.

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post #14 of 63
2/28/13 at 1:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

1. who is going to build your crossover?

Matt.
Quote:
2. why did john j. spec the td15m to only 1khz? that driver should work well past that point. perhaps that was his suggested crossover point to the seos 12", which would be a good suggestion.


I'll quote him so I don't lose anything in translation. I could have misinterpreted it.

Quote:
Ideally you don't want to go above 1KHz with a 15" or the pattern starts to get more narrow. At 1KHz though, the TD15M is only about 4dB down at 40 degrees off axis. Unless you are working with more than an 80degree wide area it shouldn't be a problem to play that high
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post #15 of 63
2/28/13 at 1:13pm
BA, look at different models for enclosures on those TD's. If you put a single TD15M in a 4-5 cube enclosure, ported and tuned to the mid 30s, like 35hz, it looks really nice and doesn't need much power to get going. It gives you lots of felxibility for xover points without the worry of the xover being too close to tuning, as Brian and NicksHitachi said. My TDs are going in 5 cubes each with a 35hz tune. The models look great, as I said and they don't need tons of power to get the output
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post #16 of 63
2/28/13 at 1:28pm
Thread Starter 
Well if you plan on tuning down to 30 or 35, wouldn't you have been better off with the X instead of M? I agree with the sentiment of tuning lower, but I don't think I'll realistically want to tune lower than 50??????
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post #17 of 63
2/28/13 at 1:33pm
Why ported? If you have EQ, use it to flatten the 15M to xover and run it sealed. Shouldn't need much even with a 50Hz xover.

Sealed in 70L net gives an F3 at 80Hz.
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post #18 of 63
2/28/13 at 1:37pm
"I could have misinterpreted it."

ah, yes. he is talking about directivity matching. with the horn, one option is to use the woofer up to the point where the directivity matches the horn, which is a little above 1khz for the seos12 and the td15m. for matching to a midrange driver, you would want to cross much lower.
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post #19 of 63
2/28/13 at 1:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I could have misinterpreted it."

ah, yes. he is talking about directivity matching. with the horn, one option is to use the woofer up to the point where the directivity matches the horn, which is a little above 1khz for the seos12 and the td15m. for matching to a midrange driver, you would want to cross much lower.

So would a xover of around 1.2 work in this scenario?
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post #20 of 63
2/28/13 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Why ported? If you have EQ, use it to flatten the 15M to xover and run it sealed. Shouldn't need much even with a 50Hz xover.

Sealed in 70L net gives an F3 at 80Hz.

Agreed. +1
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post #21 of 63
2/28/13 at 2:52pm
1200Hz should be ok, I would guess the best spot for a good directivity match is somewhere between 1000-1200Hz.

The 15" B&C in the Sentinel design is crossover right around 1100hz to the seos-12.
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post #22 of 63
2/28/13 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Well if you plan on tuning down to 30 or 35, wouldn't you have been better off with the X instead of M? I agree with the sentiment of tuning lower, but I don't think I'll realistically want to tune lower than 50??????

to be honest with you, I have been taking q's from MTG and John at AE on the enclosure and tuning. The x model, in winisd, doesn't give enough output advantage, in my models, to warrant the change. John has also stated that the M woofers, in his opinion, have better sq.
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post #23 of 63
2/28/13 at 3:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

to be honest with you, I have been taking q's from MTG and John at AE on the enclosure and tuning. The x model, in winisd, doesn't give enough output advantage, in my models, to warrant the change. John has also stated that the M woofers, in his opinion, have better sq.

John, mentioned the same thing to me. He said the 15 was the best behaved of all the TD's. He recommended the M to me as well, but more so if it was being crossed closer to 80 (definitely above 50). You give up a bit of output to the x below that and I can't see going that low with the M.

I am torn between sealed and ported. I do like the idea of extra midbass. Hmmmm, decisions decisions.
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post #24 of 63
2/28/13 at 3:47pm
Your six 18's will take care of 80hz and down. I'd go sealed, personally but it's up to you. I honestly don't see what is gained going ported with mains like these (and all similar projects) and then just crossing them anyway to some subs.
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post #25 of 63
2/28/13 at 3:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Your six 18's will take care of 80hz and down. I'd go sealed, personally but it's up to you. I honestly don't see what is gained going ported with mains like these (and all similar projects) and then just crossing them anyway to some subs.

Scott, I certainly see the wisdom behind this. I am generally running the subs at all times, even with music (even though I turn them down quite a bit). The only thing that stood out was the thought that the TD's would be much cleaner in the midbass area than the SI's. Maybe that's not entirely true though.
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post #26 of 63
2/28/13 at 4:06pm
They will still be reproducing 'midbass' even with an 80hz cross.

Or do what I recommend and set them large and run the LFE+ mode on your AVR for a full wall of bass. Deep bass sent to the mains won't be an issue if excursion control is part of the design. This is exactly what I've done on my mega build. It will be impossible to cause mechanical damage to the drivers doing this. The spread of full bandwidth bass will both sound better and probably result in better integration to the subwoofer system. The great thing is you can try this and either way keep it or don't. It's just a simple settings change in the AVR.
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post #27 of 63
2/28/13 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Well I would love to use the 15 but from the sounds of it, it is unavailable (or would at least take forever to get here from the sounds of it).?.?

If that's inaccurate information, I would love to know.

I like your plans for the build bass addict. I'm planning something similar with a TD15m, possibly the same for the front stage. Regarding the SEOS size I would also like to go 15. I was reading a thread where it was recommended by a few folks over the SEOS 12 for a TD12m build.

Good luck and looking forward to the build. Keep us posted.smile.gif
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post #28 of 63
2/28/13 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

They will still be reproducing 'midbass' even with an 80hz cross.

Or do what I recommend and set them large and run the LFE+ mode on your AVR for a full wall of bass. Deep bass sent to the mains won't be an issue if excursion control is part of the design. This is exactly what I've done on my mega build. It will be impossible to cause mechanical damage to the drivers doing this. The spread of full bandwidth bass will both sound better and probably result in better integration to the subwoofer system. The great thing is you can try this and either way keep it or don't. It's just a simple settings change in the AVR.


Scott, I've asked you about this before and I'm pretty sure I understand but I want to make sure.

Would you advise using LFE+mode on the AVR only with sealed mains or mains that have a very low freq response? What I'm getting at is, would I possibly hurt my Noesis drivers if I ran them like this since they are ported?
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post #29 of 63
2/28/13 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Scott, I've asked you about this before and I'm pretty sure I understand but I want to make sure.

Would you advise using LFE+mode on the AVR only with sealed mains or mains that have a very low freq response? What I'm getting at is, would I possibly hurt my Noesis drivers if I ran them like this since they are ported?

Yes and no. Every speaker is different and the drivers in them are of varying quality and capability. I remember going over this with you and about your Noe's. I think in any other HiFi type speaker tuned as high as yours it would be very dangerous. However, the drivers in your Noe's are pro style and even though they are of very low rated Xmax they almost always have a very high Xmech. You could try but I would with caution. The more carefree version would be for you to stuff your ports and that's easy as pie. smile.gif Seal em up and give it a try.
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post #30 of 63
2/28/13 at 10:03pm
Thread Starter 
Scott,

How do I simulate an 80hz xover in winisd so I know how much power I can apply before reaching the excursion threshold? (I set a highpass 2nd order butterworth with 80hz cross but not sure if that's right).
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