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Unofficial "End Of Upgradeitis" front stage build - Page 2

post #31 of 63
ba, that is what the typical receiver will apply for a high pass crossover setting.
post #32 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Scott,

How do I simulate an 80hz xover in winisd so I know how much power I can apply before reaching the excursion threshold? (I set a highpass 2nd order butterworth with 80hz cross but not sure if that's right).

I have no idea as I don't use WinISD. Buuuuttt...umm, why? With an 80hz cross on a TD15M you'll need hundreds of watts of power to get it to Xmax above 80hz.

Model it full range sealed with a non-rising excursion profile. Then you'll be able to go full range with nary an issue. Or whatever. tongue.gif
post #33 of 63
Bass Addict: If I were you, I would go ported because you can always plug the ports to experiment with different configurations, where as if you go sealed, you won't be able to easily switch back and forth to ported in order to see which configuration you like.

I also agree with Scott about running the mains full range with the LFE+ option. I run my mains like that, and I absolutely love the way it sounds.
post #34 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

ba, that is what the typical receiver will apply for a high pass crossover setting.

OK, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I have no idea as I don't use WinISD. Buuuuttt...umm, why? With an 80hz cross on a TD15M you'll need hundreds of watts of power to get it to Xmax above 80hz.

Yup. It can take exactly 500 watts before reaching excursion limits. No worries there, lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Bass Addict: If I were you, I would go ported because you can always plug the ports to experiment with different configurations, where as if you go sealed, you won't be able to easily switch back and forth to ported in order to see which configuration you like.

I also agree with Scott about running the mains full range with the LFE+ option. I run my mains like that, and I absolutely love the way it sounds.

If I go ported and then change to sealed, wouldn't I run into issues with cab size at that point. If going sealed I'm shooting for 3cf; whereas ported I'll be between 5 and 6. So in the end (If I opt for sealed) I'd have a 5+ cf sealed box which I don't think would be ideal.

I read somewhere where it was recommended against running that option, but I don't quite remember why. Maybe it was phase issues or something.
post #35 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Scott,

How do I simulate an 80hz xover in winisd so I know how much power I can apply before reaching the excursion threshold? (I set a highpass 2nd order butterworth with 80hz cross but not sure if that's right).
I don't use WinISD, but here it is in Unibox.
68L net sealed, 500W, 2nd order BW HPF. Perfect.





post #36 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

OK, thanks.
Yup. It can take exactly 500 watts before reaching excursion limits. No worries there, lol.
If I go ported and then change to sealed, wouldn't I run into issues with cab size at that point. If going sealed I'm shooting for 3cf; whereas ported I'll be between 5 and 6. So in the end (If I opt for sealed) I'd have a 5+ cf sealed box which I don't think would be ideal.

I read somewhere where it was recommended against running that option, but I don't quite remember why. Maybe it was phase issues or something.

Yeah. That's why I wouldn't do that. Although I'm more biased to the sealed option so I just don't see any benefit using them in any vented alignment. If these were designed to work on their own with no subwoofer in the audio system that's one thing but for HT it's pointless to go vented on the mains. Everybody just crosses anyway. It's your choice and I'll support anyone and what they want to do. This is just my advice to you or anyone else.

EDIT: Oh nice. Thanks Alpha Niner. That looks good! Look at all that extra bass you can throw into the room if you didn't cross. biggrin.gif
post #37 of 63
THis thread should not exist, no such thing as end of upgradeitis, or is that just me. cool.gif
post #38 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

THis thread should not exist, no such thing as end of upgradeitis, or is that just me. cool.gif

Quoted for truth.

My Denon 4311, JBL, and Submersive setup was exceptional and I felt I was good for years. Here I am a year later and it will now be replaced with a Sherwood R-972, XPA-5, Dual SI 18's, and SEOS TD12X towers. I'm sure I'll have an upgraded setup next year too. There is no end! smile.gif
post #39 of 63
Thread Starter 
I would have thought the 972 would have been a step down from the 4311. Why did you go that direction?
post #40 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I would have thought the 972 would have been a step down from the 4311. Why did you go that direction?

I never used the front height and wide channels. When I used the front heights, it didn't add much.

I use the R-972 as a pre-pro with an XPA-5, and it is unreal. Trinnov is absolutely amazing and has to be heard at least once if you never heard what it can do before. XT32 does a little bit better EQ wise, but Trinnov corrects my poor speaker placement in my room, levels out the sound so it seems even, creates a seamless 3D effect making the speakers disappear, and makes dialog seem to come out from the TV itself instead of from the center channel below the TV. It was $299 on a 1saleaday deal. Huge bargain.

This is with a JBL 190 series. Adding SEOS speakers into this will just be bonkers.
post #41 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I have no idea as I don't use WinISD. Buuuuttt...umm, why? With an 80hz cross on a TD15M you'll need hundreds of watts of power to get it to Xmax above 80hz.

Model it full range sealed with a non-rising excursion profile. Then you'll be able to go full range with nary an issue. Or whatever. tongue.gif

Scott, I really like the sealed idea, but I keep coming back to ported based on what John had mentioned to me a while back. I had to dig through some older PM's but here's what he had to say regarding the 15m.
Quote:
If you have room for the enclosure to be larger and vented, I would go that way. Tune ideally an octave below the lowest frequency you will be playing to push group delay issues well below. The vented box will give you again more efficiency down low though and lower distortion. That will also let you experiment with bringing your crossover lower. While the SI woofers likely work well in the range up to 80hz, the midbass from the TD15M's will likely be far cleaner and detailed. You would have the ability to experiment with the crossover point from say 50-80hz to see what you prefer then.

Edited by bass addict - 3/5/13 at 9:30pm
post #42 of 63
John knows his stuff but I still disagree with the use out of ....my own sense.

What is there to gain using a vented alignment on a set of speakers you're going to cross well above tuning? What is the point? If anything, the design is larger, more complex, has a higher order roll off, has introduced a port resonance and if anything only adds SPL within less than an octave where your current six 18" subwoofer system will best in that area anyway.

I really don't see the point. If you go sealed don't cross. Let them run full range. You'll get the superior midbass from the TD's and the actual capable deep bass from your subwoofer system which will annihilate your TD's vented anyway. It's a smaller, simpler build which is what you need in your cramped space.

Hey, it's fine with me if you don't want to go this route. It's against the grain of knowledge that everyone follows blindly for decades but everyone does it so it's correct. rolleyes.gif Lol.

Somehow I think you'll enjoy the system either way you go. smile.gif
post #43 of 63
Scott
I have a question that mabey you can answer. I ordered The TD12M so I could use the 2.0 cu ft flatpacks from Erich.What would be the differences between using the 3 port design vs the slot port vs Sealed. I am also using the BMS 4550 with the SEOS 12 so I will have to have a crossover designed/built anyway so I am curious as to what is best for my purpose Sealed or ported. Sealed seams to be easiest and they will be used as my SS and RS crossed over at 60hz to 80 hz to a pair of SubM HP's. My T12's are the vented so I am hoping to pull off a 60hz Crossover point.
Thanks for any answers from anyone
Chris
post #44 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

If you go sealed don't cross. Let them run full range.

How would I model this in isd? When I apply a meager 200 watts with no xover, I hit xmax at 70 hz. It's only when I apply a 2nd order BW with about a 40hz xover that excursion is kept in check.
post #45 of 63
Aren't you going to power them with your AVR anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Scott
I have a question that mabey you can answer. I ordered The TD12M so I could use the 2.0 cu ft flatpacks from Erich.What would be the differences between using the 3 port design vs the slot port vs Sealed. I am also using the BMS 4550 with the SEOS 12 so I will have to have a crossover designed/built anyway so I am curious as to what is best for my purpose Sealed or ported. Sealed seams to be easiest and they will be used as my SS and RS crossed over at 60hz to 80 hz to a pair of SubM HP's. My T12's are the vented so I am hoping to pull off a 60hz Crossover point.
Thanks for any answers from anyone
Chris

There will be no difference between using a port or slot or whatever as long as the tune is the same and the vent has the same cross section area. Sealed seems like a good choice if you're crossing them to subs.
post #46 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

What is there to gain using a vented alignment on a set of speakers you're going to cross well above tuning? What is the point? If anything, the design is larger, more complex, has a higher order roll off, has introduced a port resonance and if anything only adds SPL within less than an octave where your current six 18" subwoofer system will best in that area anyway.
Basically, I agree with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I really don't see the point. If you go sealed don't cross. Let them run full range. You'll get the superior midbass from the TD's and the actual capable deep bass from your subwoofer system which will annihilate your TD's vented anyway. It's a smaller, simpler build which is what you need in your cramped space.
But not with this. Leaving the 15M to run full range will cause extra distortion well up into the midrange by causing it to excurse more than it needs to when loud below band signals are present. Running it overlapping may also cause phasing and placement issues with the subs. Cross it over correctly.
post #47 of 63
I feel that the idea of running full range allows for a better integration with a subwoofer system. Not worse. Extra distortion during 'below band signals'? Yeah maybe but how bad in reality especially with AE's TD series?

I guess maybe I see it differently but it shouldn't be an issue whatsoever on my mega build since I'll have four 15's, not one and only run them up to ~300hz and not 1.2khz. So... maybe Alpha Niner has a point. However!... you can still give it a shot and see how you like it. It's just a simple button press in a menu somewhere. smile.gif
post #48 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I feel that the idea of running full range allows for a better integration with a subwoofer system. Not worse.
Not my experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Extra distortion during 'below band signals'? Yeah maybe but how bad in reality especially with AE's TD series?
Smaller higher frequency signals will still be superimposed upon the larger signals, so in that circumstance the smaller signals will be the ones being most greatly distorted by the falling Bl curve. They only have 6mm Xmax.
post #49 of 63
I see.

Good info for this thread. Thanks. smile.gif
post #50 of 63
AE TD15M has 6mm Xmax while the AE TD15X has 14mm Xmax. Should use the X series to run full range.
Chris
post #51 of 63
It won't matter if the driver has 30mm of Xmax. The extra travel will cause what's called IMD or Inter Modulation Distortion.

However, I would agree otherwise. biggrin.gif
post #52 of 63
Thread Starter 
OK, so let's see if everyone is on the same page.

1) If using subs, ported or sealed is irrelevant. I'm assuming the extra db's picked up from the ported around 70hz will be eq'd out anyways.

2) Don't run full range
A) If I don't run full range would one benefit from lowering the xover to say 50-60hz, or should you still stick with 80?
post #53 of 63
C) Play around with ALL settings including using full range, LFE+Main mode and experimenting with various crossover points.

smile.gif

The end results to the user are more important than measured results, imho. It's all about the end user and how he/she likes how their system sounds. Experiment. Don't settle on cookie cutter presets.
post #54 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

C) Play around with ALL settings including using full range, LFE+Main mode and experimenting with various crossover points.

smile.gif

The end results to the user are more important than measured results, imho. It's all about the end user and how he/she likes how their system sounds. Experiment. Don't settle on cookie cutter presets.

Blasphemy. biggrin.gif

Scott, I still show running past xmax (70hz) with minimal watts when in full range.
post #55 of 63
Minimal, eh? Sounds like a minimal amount of concern to me. tongue.gif

Just imagine how bad it would be if they were vented. Yeah. smile.gif

Wouldn't even be an option but what look at the wonder knowledgable me has brought to your systems capability. biggrin.gifcool.gif

Jk. Honestly, how often are you going to be pushing +100w into these? "End of Upgradeitis", hmmm.... maybe should be using two or more 15's per side. biggrin.gif

What should I call my sysytem then since you stole that thunder? 'End of .....my house and my face.' Lol!


Nahh... you're doing good. I think you're thinking about it too much though. Just decide if you want sealed or vented or whatever. I push for sealed because it means a smaller enclosure, which is good for your situation and also because there is nothing to gain with a vented one.
post #56 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Minimal, eh? Sounds like a minimal amount of concern to me. tongue.gif

Minimal as in 200 watts. wink.gif
Quote:
Just imagine how bad it would be if they were vented. Yeah. smile.gif

Good point, lol.
Quote:
Jk. Honestly, how often are you going to be pushing +100w into these?

With 99db's efficiency, probably never. But I like to know I can. smile.gif
Quote:
"End of Upgradeitis", hmmm.... maybe should be using two or more 15's per side. biggrin.gif

Don't tempt me. biggrin.gif
Quote:
What should I call my sysytem then since you stole that thunder? 'End of .....my house and my face.' Lol!

Lulz.
Quote:
Nahh... you're doing good. I think you're thinking about it too much though. Just decide if you want sealed or vented or whatever. I push for sealed because it means a smaller enclosure, which is good for your situation and also because there is nothing to gain with a vented one.

I'm not worried about room. I have 25" depth to work with and plenty of height. I'm only width challenged. smile.gif I won't be building one or the other based on this. I probably am over thinking it; but what else do I have to over analyze right now? smile.gif Oh wait, my surround build. biggrin.gif
post #57 of 63
Yeah. The surround build might be more challenging than this considering. I'd put that off until you get this all figured out. No need to grow grey hairs just yet. wink.gif

Sealed still sounds good to me. Leaves room for more 15's underneath if you feel like going hybrid active/passive in the future. smile.gif
post #58 of 63
Thread Starter 
Yes Scott, I'm still over analyzing this. smile.gif But why not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Why ported? If you have EQ, use it to flatten the 15M to xover and run it sealed. Shouldn't need much even with a 50Hz xover.

Sealed in 70L net gives an F3 at 80Hz.

What xover did you model that at? The only way I can get a -3db point at 80 hz is either in full range mode, or crossed at 40hz. Anything else and you are down by that amount at 90-100hz.

This is a 2.5 cf sealed vs 5 cf ported (tuned to 50 hz), with xover set to 80 ported and 40 sealed.
405889856.jpg

Here is the SPL difference I am looking at with both crossed at 80hz.
405889871.jpg

group delay
405889845.jpg

Excursion is irrelevant with the power I will be sending regardless of xover. *Must be run as small and crossed. Results not good in full range).
405889847.jpg
post #59 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

What xover did you model that at?
I said it in the post with the graphs. 80Hz, 2nd order Butterworth high pass, 500W applied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

This is a 2.5 cf sealed vs 5 cf ported (tuned to 50 hz), with xover set to 80 ported and 40 sealed.
And what benefit do you get from having the extra outout below 80Hz with the ported? Youll have a lump in the response you'll need to EQ out.

Besides a 2nd order sealed Q=0.707 is a BW2 slope. Add another BW2 slope from the electronic xover and you have a net acoustic roll off in my model of a LR4. Add a LR4 LPF at 80Hz for the subs and set levels and distances and you have correct integration midbass to subs and will only need to work on what the room is doing to the lot.
post #60 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

I said it in the post with the graphs.

Sheesh, no need to yell at me.



biggrin.gif
Quote:
80Hz, 2nd order Butterworth high pass, 500W applied.
And what benefit do you get from having the extra outout below 80Hz with the ported? Youll have a lump in the response you'll need to EQ out.
Besides a 2nd order sealed Q=0.707 is a BW2 slope. Add another BW2 slope from the electronic xover and you have a net acoustic roll off in my model of a LR4. Add a LR4 LPF at 80Hz for the subs and set levels and distances and you have correct integration midbass to subs and will only need to work on what the room is doing to the lot.

OK, well this might seem like no brainer decisions to you, but this is how we learn. I'm not one to follow blindly. I like to research and gain an understanding on why things work the way they do. wink.gif

Seems like the sealed approach is a good way to go for integration into my setup.
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