or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Video Components › Home Theater Computers › WD Red vs WD Green vs Seagate 3TB Hard Drive Speeds
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

WD Red vs WD Green vs Seagate 3TB Hard Drive Speeds - Page 26

post #751 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Something funny is up with this ^

There is odd distortion around the numbers.
Image (Click to show)


But no such distortion in the pure white areas.

It's like me posting something like this:
Image (Click to show)


Real^ ????


I hate to be skeptical but I am because I check daily and I have seen 2TB but never 3TB for that price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

This should be an interesting response from itznfb...

You're kidding right? Apparently you've never taken a screenshot of a webpage before. It's not distortion it's anti-aliasing/smoothing of fonts in the browser. Which is why it isn't in the white space... you really are stretching to not be wrong aren't you? rolleyes.gif

You see the exact same thing in every character in the screen shot you took... are you telling me you somehow edited and caused "distortion" around every single letter on your screenshot?

It's not my fault you don't check Newegg ShellShocker and part roundups daily.

Oh and I really have a lot invested in telling people I paid less than I actually did for hard drives... rolleyes.gif
post #752 of 853
Let's just move on- my only point was RED 3TB under $100 is not a reality most of the time. They run consistently $130-$150 and great sales are still always over $100 (and I look often)

At typical street prices they are not great values IMO. That's all I am saying. And if your getting them for $89 each then I am jealous and happy for you- envious mostly. That's a great price, and I've never been lucky enough to catch it.

Ever seen drives this cheap ? biggrin.gif

post #753 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post


You're kidding right? Apparently you've never taken a screenshot of a webpage before. It's not distortion it's anti-aliasing/smoothing of fonts in the browser. Which is why it isn't in the white space... you really are stretching to not be wrong aren't you? rolleyes.gif

I love ALT-PrtScn
post #754 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

If your getting them for $89 each then I am jealous and happy for you- envious mostly. That's a great price, and I've never been lucky enough to catch it.]

Also green with envy here eek.gif

Never seen it, and it's not like slickdeals/techbargains to miss a good deal (shell shocker, daily, monthly, lightning, gold box, etc)

I'd go so far as to say that I'd prefer a NAS type drive, but haven't found them in the right price points. I guess I'll add one more daily visit to the list (newegg) in case their shell shockers don't make it to slickdeals/techbargains
post #755 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Also green with envy here eek.gif

Never seen it, and it's not like slickdeals/techbargains to miss a good deal (shell shocker, daily, monthly, lightning, gold box, etc)

I'd go so far as to say that I'd prefer a NAS type drive, but haven't found them in the right price points. I guess I'll add one more daily visit to the list (newegg) in case their shell shockers don't make it to slickdeals/techbargains

I check my phone every morning. I get between 3 and 5 e-mails from Newegg before 6am and another one at 12pm. Then tons of emails from 20 or so deal sites. I use a separate email account just for deal emails. Most people never look through the bi-weekly/monthly Newegg roundups either since they are time consuming to sort through and there are typically really good deals hidden in there with the ability to use an additional coupon.
You guys don't spend enough time on the Slickdeals forums.
post #756 of 853
post #757 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Also green with envy here eek.gif

And he is "red" with delight. biggrin.gif


Thank you, thank you, I am here all week...
post #758 of 853
Slightly off topic, but as I'm building my first server this weekend, is there any benefit in terms of reliability from having my parity drive(s) as a WD Red?

Local prices for a 3TB Seagate 7200.14 is $138, Toshiba $142 and WD Red $169, so if I don't get any benefit from the difference in price, I won't spend it.
post #759 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Slightly off topic, but as I'm building my first server this weekend, is there any benefit in terms of reliability from having my parity drive(s) as a WD Red?

Local prices for a 3TB Seagate 7200.14 is $138, Toshiba $142 and WD Red $169, so if I don't get any benefit from the difference in price, I won't spend it.

No. Parity only get written to when updating and otherwise just sits there. It only gets read from if you a restoring a failed drive.

I use a WD GREEN 3TB for my parity and it seems to work fine for the last 12 months for me. I am also the most notorious WD 5400rpm basher around here, so I guess my actions speak louder than my words. Your fine with any drive, including a green drive. You don't need a more reliable drive, you can use the same drives you use for your data is good choice. I would just use all the same.

That said,

RED is not more reliable. It's in my opinion that it is not at all more reliable. It's the biggest marketing gimmick that RED is somehow more reliable than other hard drives. I think it's basically the exact same as a WD GREEN or any Hitachi or Seagate being sold today. Spending extra on a RED for that purpose insults me (or WD suggesting I should do that I should say insults my intelligence) I would not be fooled by that BS marketing.

Reality is there is much more in common between a WD GREEN and a WD RED than there is anything that is much different. They basically use the same parts and MFG processes, with the difference being head parking is disabled on RED to play nice with NAS RAID , and it's got a better NAS oriented firmware.

If your going to fall for that marketing stuff- I'd be more tempted to believe the Seagate NAS (newest version) is the most appropriate for you. Seagate at least appears to have actually done some different and worthwhile things with the new NAS line and it also sells for the same prices as RED, while providing the same 3 year warranty and better performance.

I think you would much more appreaciate the faster parity calculation times of using all 7200.14 Seagate 7200rpms.

In such an event, using all Seagate 7200's would finish a couple hours faster biggrin.gif That is my only motivation I have to swap out my parity drive. It's been on my to do list for a long time.
post #760 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Reality is there is much more in common between a WD GREEN and a WD RED than there is anything that is much different. They basically use the same parts and MFG processes, with the difference being head parking is disabled on RED to play nice with NAS RAID, and it's got a better NAS oriented firmware..

Really???

While I still argue there's not a lot of impact in reality (for those that have followed the 700+ post encyclopedia here)

The things that you rave about in the 7200.14 modern design are present in the re-designed WD RED
  • cache was upgraded to 64
  • cache uses DDR2 rather than DDR
  • platter size is 1TB
post #761 of 853
I built my first RAID 5 using WD AV-GP drives eek.gif
post #762 of 853
Anandtech has a somewhat useful writeup about the Red differentiation: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6157/western-digital-red-review-are-nasoptimized-hdds-worth-the-premium/2
post #763 of 853
So when are the 5TB drives supposed to be released? Has there been any announcements about them?
post #764 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

So when are the 5TB drives supposed to be released? Has there been any announcements about them?


Seagate said originally 4th quarter this year
post #765 of 853
I haven't seen anything for the Seagate consumer drives if they are planning any. First half of 2014. http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/storage/display/20130716192630_Seagate_Readies_5TB_6TB_Enterprise_Class_Hard_Disk_Drives.html
5TB WD Reds are rumored to be around Q4 of 2013. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/WD-Green-WD-Red-NAS-Desktop-5TB,19517.html
post #766 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

Anandtech has a somewhat useful writeup about the Red differentiation: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6157/western-digital-red-review-are-nasoptimized-hdds-worth-the-premium/2

The reds are much better than the greens, to be sure (but it is not hard to be better than the greens). Your needs will determine if the normal price difference is worth it. You got yours at a great price, definately worth it at that price.
Edited by cybrsage - 8/23/13 at 4:14am
post #767 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

The reds are much better than the greens, to be sure (but it is not hard to be better than the greens). Your needs will determine if the normal price difference is worth it. You got yours at a great price, definately worth it at that price.

In my opinion... relative to current pricing they are worth their typical retail value as well. I just have a personal issue with paying the gouged post-flood pricing. I'll only purchase drives when they hit pre-flood pricing in deals. So far though they are my favorite drives for large capacity needs. I only started working with the Seagate NAS drives recently. If I see a stability rate with those as I have with the WD Reds then they will sit right along side of the Reds as a favorite.
post #768 of 853
Pricing is independent of quality. It's the individual perception of both aspects that leads to personal feelings and purchase decisions.

If you lower the price of any HDD you can make it a good value. Example: $150 RED at new egg today for 3TB does not seem too good. Subtract 15% discount it looks a little better. Take off $50 and make it $99 and it actually seems like a good deal. At which point does it change from not a good deal to a good deal ? It's a grey area. And since pricing changes all the time there will never be a universal answer.

I don't think I would bash on RED as much as I do if they sold for $99 with regularity. I'd tend to just view them as a decent drive for a decent price that's most appropriate when performance is not as important. But @ $150 I can't say that is how I view them at all.

let's just flip stuff around,

If the Seagate was not $79, $89 or $99 or even $109 all the time (I have bought for all those prices) and the Seagate 7200.14 was actually $149, and the RED 3TB was only $99 - which is a better choice ???? I'd probably have a server full of RED drives, because even though they are slower than the Seagates- they are $50 cheaper and that just matters a lot more to me.

I totally hear what you are saying about post flood prices. I too look for the low cost deals and buy then and only then.

I think prices are too variable to be able to include and make universal rules. You need to just look at what is available at the time you are buying and make the best decision you can from your options. But you can't count on low prices either, so for example I can't count on buying a RED for $89 like you claim you do- because I have never seen it and it's not likely to happen (opinion). So I make an alternative choice based on what I do see available.

If all drives are the exact same price per TB- that is where we can have interesting conversations about the differences between drives. Usually the differences are not as important as the prices.
post #769 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Pricing is independent of quality. It's the individual perception of both aspects that leads to personal feelings and purchase decisions.

If you lower the price of any HDD you can make it a good value. Example: $150 RED at new egg today for 3TB does not seem too good. Subtract 15% discount it looks a little better. Take off $50 and make it $99 and it actually seems like a good deal. At which point does it change from not a good deal to a good deal ? It's a grey area. And since pricing changes all the time there will never be a universal answer.

I don't think I would bash on RED as much as I do if they sold for $99 with regularity. I'd tend to just view them as a decent drive for a decent price that's most appropriate when performance is not as important. But @ $150 I can't say that is how I view them at all.

let's just flip stuff around,

If the Seagate was not $79, $89 or $99 or even $109 all the time (I have bought for all those prices) and the Seagate 7200.14 was actually $149, and the RED 3TB was only $99 - which is a better choice ???? I'd probably have a server full of RED drives, because even though they are slower than the Seagates- they are $50 cheaper and that just matters a lot more to me.

I totally hear what you are saying about post flood prices. I too look for the low cost deals and buy then and only then.

I think prices are too variable to be able to include and make universal rules. You need to just look at what is available at the time you are buying and make the best decision you can from your options. But you can't count on low prices either, so for example I can't count on buying a RED for $89 like you claim you do- because I have never seen it and it's not likely to happen (opinion). So I make an alternative choice based on what I do see available.

If all drives are the exact same price per TB- that is where we can have interesting conversations about the differences between drives. Usually the differences are not as important as the prices.

That's my point. If I was willing to pay over $100 for a HDD then I would pay $150.00 for a Red well before I would pay $110.00 for a 7200.14. The quality difference between the desktop 7200.14 and the consumer marketed "server" Red would be worth the $40 to me.
post #770 of 853
I disagree biggrin.gif
post #771 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I disagree biggrin.gif

Obviously tongue.gif

Give it enough time and you'll eventually see why I feel this way wink.gif
post #772 of 853
Well I've been buying WD drives for a decade and I've realized they are not magical. They actually suck and I see through the hype. Seagate is superior these days IMO. I might be wrong, and if all my Seagates blow up I might see the light. I doubt it though. So far I am 20 for 20 with Zero failures.

I think WD is worse at reliability and I don't believe the hype about RED drives being reliable. That's rubbish to me until it's demonstrated. HDD MFGers have been saying the same thing for years, generation after generation of hard drives. They are all about the same.

I have RMA probably 15 WD drives in recent times so I am aware of the reality with them. People are paying more for 1 year warranty, you can't predict which drive will last longer so using emotions and feelings to influence a purchase decision seems senseless to me. If I was to fall for the marketing babble and 1 year warranty - I'd still go with Seagate NAS.
post #773 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Well I've been buying WD drives for a decade and I've realized they are not magical. They actually suck and I see through the hype. Seagate is superior these days IMO. I might be wrong, and if all my Seagates blow up I might see the light. I doubt it though.

I think WD is worse at reliability and I don't believe the hype about RED drives being reliable. That's rubbish to me until it's demonstrated. HDD MFGers have been saying the same thing for years, generation after generation of hard drives. They are all about the same.

Everyone seems to have a different history with each manufacturer. I've had bad experiences with all HDD manufacturers. So far my worst experiences (in terms of failure rate) have been with WD Green drives and Seagate 7200.14 drives. But you even posted a page or so back raving about the difference between the Seagate 7200.14 and the advancements they put into the NAS drives to make them more reliable. Yet you deny those same advancements exist in the Red drives even though I posted the same info for them. I'm not sure why you think Seagate would be able to do this and not WD. The bottom line is the NAS HDD's from both WD and Seagate should be much more reliable over long periods of time and should keep data from being corrupted for longer periods of time with the error correction implemented in those drives. Whether one person or another actually experiences that is up in the air. As I said... everyone has different experiences.

You should change the thread title to WD Red vs WD Green vs Seagate 3TB Hard Drive Speeds, Reliability and Religion
post #774 of 853
It's not my thread tongue.gif

I am just hear to smash the WD bias BS. That's a cult and has been a long time. WD seems to lose more ground with every new generation of drives. I have watched their obvious superiority from years back dwindle down to being merely average and now most recently it's below average. WD is going in the wrong direction, and putting RED and GREEN and BLACK and BLUE labels isn't going to improve product quality. They spend so much effort with trying to maximize margins with branding efforts and marketing- I wish they put a little more into developing an affordable quality do it all hard drive in 4TB sizes.

What ever happened to the blue line ? Why don't they have 3TB blue drives for $99 to compete with Seagate ? How come it took WD extra year to come out with 3TB RED drives ? How come they still don't have a good 4TB option today ?

WD is over rated these days.
post #775 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

It's not my thread tongue.gif

I am just hear to smash the WD bias BS. That's a cult and has been a long time. WD seems to lose more ground with every new generation of drives. I have watched their obvious superiority from years back dwindle down to being merely average and now most recently it's below average. WD is going in the wrong direction, and putting RED and GREEN and BLACK and BLUE labels isn't going to improve product quality. They spend so much effort with trying to maximize margins with branding efforts and marketing- I wish they put a little more into developing an affordable quality do it all hard drive in 4TB sizes.

What ever happened to the blue line ? Why don't they have 3TB blue drives for $99 to compete with Seagate ? How come it took WD extra year to come out with 3TB RED drives ? How come they still don't have a good 4TB option today ?

WD is over rated these days.

This is 100% opinion though. There is absolutely no information to back up such claims. It's just as much negative WD bias BS as you claim people spout positive WD bias BS. They have a different market strategy than Seagate does. Both companies sales are tanking and they both seem to be trying to abandon the consumer HDD market as it's clearly a dying market. You seem to be taking WD's strategy personally though just because they don't offer exactly what you want.

edit: Actually I need to make a correction... both companies seem to be gaining ground since December but they are both following the same trend. It isn't like one is tanking while the other is growing.
post #776 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

This is 100% opinion though. There is absolutely no information to back up such claims. It's just as much negative WD bias BS as you claim people spout positive WD bias BS. They have a different market strategy than Seagate does. Both companies sales are tanking and they both seem to be trying to abandon the consumer HDD market as it's clearly a dying market. You seem to be taking WD's strategy personally though just because they don't offer exactly what you want.

edit: Actually I need to make a correction... both companies seem to be gaining ground since December but they are both following the same trend. It isn't like one is tanking while the other is growing.

You are right. It is opinion and I do take it personally that WD does not offer any products that I like, or any products that I want. I wish they did. I used to prefer WD and buy them first, now I can't even buy them because they don't even make good 4TB drives, or even good 3TB drives that are affordable.

Even their non consumer drives are expensive and still based on old technology. 5 platters for a 3TB drive is BS. 5 Platters for a 4TB is BS too. I don't want some slow pig 5400rpm drive either. Just because their marketing suggests such to me, I am not buying it. It's WD that is abandoning the consumer HDD market. Hitachi and Seagate are gaining ground. Didn't Seagate ship it's 1 Billionth hard drive recently ? That's crazy. I think there is also a reason why you see Hitachi and Seagate drives as OEM in branded PC's and laptops much more often these days. It's because WD products are not that competitive in consumer segments anymore. It's like they gave up on that market when they realized their technology was old and slow and they could not track accurately on 1TB platters and 7200rpm speeds. At least they can't seem to do it reliably or affordably. Hitachi and Seagate have lots of options in comparison.

It's not like Hitachi and Seagate have these drives and no one is buying them. They sell wonderfully. My only guess is since WD bought Hitachi they just let Hitachi do that stuff ??? But that's all Hitachi tech and MFG processes in those drives. They are decidedly not WD, regardless of which parent company owns who's stock.
post #777 of 853
Don't take it personally, I can guarantee that WD aren't planning their strategy just to hack you off.

David
post #778 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidT99 View Post

Don't take it personally, I can guarantee that WD aren't planning their strategy just to hack you off.

David

I get what your saying but I just see it differently. I see WD losing ground and that modern WD tech seems to be lacking compared to Hitachi and Seagate. What is awesome about a WD drive these days ? (answer = nothing)

They can't seem to win on performance, or price, or reliability. The reliability aspect can be argued like religion but no clear answer will ever come. The price and performance are pretty clear. They are struggling to even get a 4TB drive to market.

CAN I BUY A 4TB RED or GREEN DRIVE RIGHT NOW ??? HOW ABOUT A NORMAL BLUE ?

I just looked and I can not. Why is it a year later and WD still has no 4TB drive being offered? Seagate is on it's 3rd edition. I have the 5 platter 4TB in my parents HTPC for a year now, and now they are releasing 3rd gen 4 platter models already. Hitachi has had 4TB drives for a year too.

Trust me- I know WD has not been waiting a year to bring a quality 4TB to market just to piss me off. It's taking this long because they are behind the curve these days. There is nothing fresh, nothing modern, nothing better, and nothing great about WD hard drives these days. WD is now playing catch up and falling behind quicker than it's catching up. Luckily they have Hitachi now, and Hitachi tech which looks very promising (helium filled drives). But nothing good about Hitachi has translated into any WD line currently being sold right now. Perhaps in the future we might see some.

Just stop and think about it. What have people wanted to buy for the last 6 months ? 4TB drives right ? If you wanted to buy one right now you would not even consider WD. It's funny that some of the WD fans actually go looking for it as the first choice, find out there is no options for them and end up buying a Hitachi or a Seagate. It's not like people don't want to purchase. WD is not a good option right now IMO. Unless you have a WD brand mental fixation or fetish I see little reason to think they are anything but below average these days.


Hopefully they will bring a hard drive to market that either wins on performance, or wins on price. Hopefully this will be in a 4TB size too. At which point WD might gather some consideration and recommendation again.
post #779 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I think WD is worse at reliability and I don't believe the hype about RED drives being reliable. That's rubbish to me until it's demonstrated. HDD MFGers have been saying the same thing for years, generation after generation of hard drives. They are all about the same.

Warranty underwriters make a living measuring and analyzing product reliability data. You can buy the raw data from the trade rags. Western Digital's claims rate(past) and accrual rate (future) have both dropped well below the storage industry's long-term average. You can see a head-to-head historical comparison of Western Digital VS Seagate. WD's current annual warranty claims rate is lower than Seagate's has ever been.

WD has improved their manufacturing and quality control. That's reflected in the longer warranty, which still covers the crucial year of operation when annualized failure rates jump from 2% to 8% . You may be personally unable to justify spending the price premium WD drives currently command, but that doesn't negate the fact that they currently command one.
post #780 of 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricN View Post

Warranty underwriters make a living measuring and analyzing product reliability data. You can buy the raw data from the trade rags. Western Digital's claims rate(past) and accrual rate (future) have both dropped well below the storage industry's long-term average. You can see a head-to-head historical comparison of Western Digital VS Seagate. WD's current annual warranty claims rate is lower than Seagate's has ever been.

WD has improved their manufacturing and quality control. That's reflected in the longer warranty, which still covers the crucial year of operation when annualized failure rates jump from 2% to 8% . You may be personally unable to justify spending the price premium WD drives currently command, but that doesn't negate the fact that they currently command one.

Nice links biggrin.gif


Figure 4
Seagate Technology plc
Warranty Claims & Accrual Rates, 2003-2010
(as a percentage of product sales)


Figure 5
Western Digital Corp.
Warranty Claims & Accrual Rates, 2003-2010
(as a percentage of product sales)



I think generally hard drives are about as reliable as they have been for the last 5 years, and generally Seagate vs Hitachi vs WD there is little difference. I doubt it's much different to suggest the RED is a better deal if that is what people are trying to say. By the time the data will come out the drive will be gone and replaced, and you can't use one product when looking at an entire line of products data. You can easily get a bad product line or a good one that is different easily.

I don't think we can ever really know on these matters. So I don't worry much about it. I have been buying hardrives for 20 years and I buy a lot of them I am not scared, and I generally get what I expect. Worrying about reliabilty of a hard drive, or trying to think you can predict reliability of one product versus another on individual user level is for fools and fanboys.

I am staying out of that mess.

I would expect the same from both WD or Seagate if I bought one today. I would probably get the same results from either too. The concept and "fear" that gets thrown around with regards to reliability is rubbish.

We are talking about products. Not companies. The specific drives we are talking about are a small percent of the companies total products and sales. You can't make serious conclusions down to individual products or indidual purchases from such data. Any reasonable person with reasonable intelligence would see both hard drives are good. I don't see much serious difference between any HDD MFG, including Hitachi, Samsung, Toshiba too... The data is interesting but irrelevant to consumer purchase decisions.


Question: If there really was a reliability difference then why do PC OEM companies use more Hitachi and Seagate HDD's as OEM drives in laptops and desktops and consumer devices? Don't most NAS, Laptops, Desktops, usually have more Seagate and Hitachi inside ? It seems so to me... which I attribute to cost. I don't think reliability is an issue with any HDD, and HDD's all fail across all brands and that will never change.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Home Theater Computers
AVS › AVS Forum › Video Components › Home Theater Computers › WD Red vs WD Green vs Seagate 3TB Hard Drive Speeds