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Sony PS4 Will Support 4K Movie Downloads

post #1 of 236
2/28/13 at 7:58pm
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Here's a rather exciting bit of home theater-related news: In an interview with The Verge, Sony Electronics President Phil Molyneux said the recently announced PlayStation 4 will support Sony's 4K movie-download service, which is expected to go online this summer. Molyneux indicated that typical movie titles would be over 100GB in size, so taking advantage of 4K content will require a decent broadband connection and a high data limit. With file sizes that large, the quality promises to exceed anything available on Blu-ray today, but for many users a download of that size could take hours. Molyneux was non-committal about the future of Blu-ray, mentioning that the whole world is moving toward downloads.


Quote:
Molyneux was bullish about the future of online delivery for 4K — he said that he's personally heading up the download service project, and added that while he was "not discounting" physical 4K distribution on Blu-ray or other media, "the whole world is moving more and more to download." source: theverge.com
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post #2 of 236
2/28/13 at 8:56pm
Right on good to hear.
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post #3 of 236
2/28/13 at 9:06pm
No thanks on the DL, Disc's please. 100 Gigs? My god, with the caps put on most ISP's, this will not be something may people use. They've got to come out with a better codec to shrink these down a ton!
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post #4 of 236
2/28/13 at 9:08pm
give me a disc forget downloads
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post #5 of 236
2/28/13 at 9:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

No thanks on the DL, Disc's please. 100 Gigs? My god, with the caps put on most ISP's, this will not be something may people use. They've got to come out with a better codec to shrink these down a ton!

Trust me I'm 100% pro disc too. Its good they are trying to get 4k out there is my point.
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post #6 of 236
2/28/13 at 9:26pm
Quote:
give me a disc forget downloads

^This. My Blu Rays are sitting safe in their pretty little cases on my bookshelf. What about when I pay for a download and then, oops, my hard drive dies? I suppose if it remembers the purchase and you can re-download it...but still. I'll be right back, though - I'm gonna go invest in a few of my local ISPs. They're gonna make a killing when they decide to remove the cap and just charge based on how much you download.
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post #7 of 236
2/28/13 at 10:05pm
That's it.
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post #8 of 236
2/28/13 at 10:12pm
Unless you have a lightning fast connection it could take a day to download a long movie. That's ridiculous.
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post #9 of 236
2/28/13 at 11:37pm
Quote:
Unless you have a lightning fast connection it could take a day to download a long movie. That's ridiculous.

"Honey, let's watch _____________ tonight."
"Sure, I'll just download it. Crap, sorry. We won't be able to watch it until next weekend."
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post #10 of 236
2/28/13 at 11:58pm
Comcast, and several other cable modem ISPs have a 300GB / month bandwidth cap. Or rather, you can download more, but they will charge you by the bit (and I wonder if they will follow the model that cell phone minutes use.

I guess as long as you only want to add 2 movies per month to your collection you'll be all set.
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post #11 of 236
3/1/13 at 12:02am
Makes me smile that a device mass marketed to a teenage gaming crowd will be on the cutting edge of technology and likely performance once again!
As for downloads, even though band widths will eventually catch up, I much prefer something tangible to hold safely in my hand.
People collect "things" and get just as much satisfaction from having a collection as we do from using the things themselves, movies included.
Once it becomes nothing more than a digital file, what value does it really have as a collection. Remember record albums?
I do hear kids bragging that they have 10 cajillion songs on their I-pod, but 99.9% of those are stolen so once again, not something the media moguls want.
Edited by DavidK442 - 3/1/13 at 12:10am
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post #12 of 236
3/1/13 at 2:16am
I disagree with most of you. I think Sony is on the right track here!

First, they actually are doing something positive and pro-active for the development and distribution of 4K content. Who else does that?

Second, I am convinced that downloading/streaming content is the future. In fact, personally I own very little physical media. Since years I have been legally streaming (and paying for) music via Spotify. I also stream (and pay for) TV series, I have used both Netflix and similar Swedish services.

For movies where my quality demands are higher, I typically rent new and interesting blu-rays and rip them loss-free to my NAS (ripping is legal in Sweden, for personal use if you have paid for the rent) for later viewing. The NAS has RAID and multiple drives so I risk no loss of information. I keep a 'library' of 50-100 ripped blu-rays until I have watched them and will delete to free up space for other films. OK, this method does require some planning ahead, but this is for me part of the fun -- to keep an eye open for interesting titles which I will put in my library for viewing during the upcoming months. And if my wife really needs to instantly watch something particular on a Friday night, we can always stream via Netflix or iTunes, with slightly lower quality. smile.gif

So, personally I see no problem waiting a few days for a huge 4K title to be downloaded. But then in Sweden, ISPs typically don't limit bandwidth and/or usage. But I would assume that also in the US, enthusiasts do have the possibility of paying a little premium to get unlimited monthly broadband traffic?
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post #13 of 236
3/1/13 at 3:31am
The 4K 100GB size seems more like a confirmation that the first model of PS4 will not have HEVC/h.265 decoding.
By and by the size of a 4K movie will shrink to a quarter of that with no visible loss of quality.
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post #14 of 236
3/1/13 at 4:01am
So far, 4K isn't looking good at all and here's why. I had announced on another thread a 4K UHD display for $2K and not much interest in purchasing that display came up because the manufacturer is less known. So know one wants to spend $2K on a cheap 4K UHD display but most can't afford a $12K+ UHD display. Too cheap isn't good enough and too expensive is unaffordable. And now 100gb downloads.

Here in Canada, I'm already paying alot for high speed with a 120gb download, the highest plan is 200gb download. I don't see how ISP's will increase their plans and lower their prices in the next year. I think manufacturers don't seem to know how to get the most consumers on board.

I agree that downloads is the future even though I am a MAJOR physical media type of guy, but infrastructure simply isn't there yet and most consumers will not have a UHD displays. I hope Coolscan (above) is right that H.265 will bring the file size down to help with download time and file size. I just think manufacturers are going about it the wrong way.
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post #15 of 236
3/1/13 at 4:46am
+1 on Sony doing SOMETHING, course if they released a $500 PS4 that was DOA on 4K it wouldn't sell so they had to have something. I think its more likely that they adopt H.265 and try and put it on a double-layer BD disc (but it won't be UHD BD for sure), just curious if they'll totally have to change the BD format or if a tweak to the spec will allow manufacturers to instantly start churning out 4K BD discs. Note: this will be the LAST time I upgrade strictly due to resolution (sniff...)

As a side effect, should be some really nice high-end 2K displays on sale when 4K comes out, I think I'm upgrading to a nice Runco or Sim2 for 50% of new...
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post #16 of 236
3/1/13 at 4:59am
I think most of you are missing the point.

Sony is trying to give us technology early, before we have legitimate capability of using it (4K Downloads).

It's like buying the first Blu-Ray Player when there were only 3 movies available. Eventually, Blu-Ray became the widely used standard, but for a long while, content was limited. Same with LaserDisc. Same with DVD...and so on.

If we get these PS4s in hand, then the demand for quicker and larger downloading will force cable companies to re-evaluate their services.

It's a little bit of "Cart before the horse", but if Sony is the first to really push this technology, others will comply and follow.........


......hopefully.
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post #17 of 236
3/1/13 at 5:11am
Unless the move is extremely long, I don't see how the downloads are going to be 100 gig. I think this is a worst case scenario. One hour of mpeg 1920 HD can fit in as little as 6GB. Multiply that by 4 for resolution and 2 for 2 hours and you get 48GB. This is a best case scenario for a 2 hour movie. Plus, generally speaking, the higher the pixel count, the more compressable the image.

It's still a big problem, but not as big as Sony claims.
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post #18 of 236
3/1/13 at 5:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Unless the move is extremely long, I don't see how the downloads are going to be 100 gig. I think this is a worst case scenario. One hour of mpeg 1920 HD can fit in as little as 6GB. Multiply that by 4 for resolution and 2 for 2 hours and you get 48GB. This is a best case scenario for a 2 hour movie. Plus, generally speaking, the higher the pixel count, the more compressable the image.

It's still a big problem, but not as big as Sony claims.

I don't think the idea behind the 4K download is to provide a small file. I think the idea is to provide maximum quality. The COO of Sony Electronics probably has a good idea how large the files will be, and his quote is "typical 4K movies would be "100 gigabytes and plus" depending on length".
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post #19 of 236
3/1/13 at 5:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyS View Post

So far, 4K isn't looking good at all and here's why. I had announced on another thread a 4K UHD display for $2K and not much interest in purchasing that display came up because the manufacturer is less known. So know one wants to spend $2K on a cheap 4K UHD display but most can't afford a $12K+ UHD display. Too cheap isn't good enough and too expensive is unaffordable. And now 100gb downloads.

Here in Canada, I'm already paying alot for high speed with a 120gb download, the highest plan is 200gb download. I don't see how ISP's will increase their plans and lower their prices in the next year. I think manufacturers don't seem to know how to get the most consumers on board.

I agree that downloads is the future even though I am a MAJOR physical media type of guy, but infrastructure simply isn't there yet and most consumers will not have a UHD displays. I hope Coolscan (above) is right that H.265 will bring the file size down to help with download time and file size. I just think manufacturers are going about it the wrong way.

I'm in Canada to, but my ISP doesn't put limitation caps on the download.
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post #20 of 236
3/1/13 at 5:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I don't think the idea behind the 4K download is to provide a small file. I think the idea is to provide maximum quality. The COO of Sony Electronics probably has a good idea how large the files will be, and his quote is "typical 4K movies would be "100 gigabytes and plus" depending on length".
And why not? They need to push this whole industry.
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post #21 of 236
3/1/13 at 5:32am
ATT DSL has a 150 gig limit per month where I live and Comcast has a 250 gig limit.
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post #22 of 236
3/1/13 at 5:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermr2 View Post

ATT DSL has a 150 gig limit per month where I live and Comcast has a 250 gig limit.

You probably have nothing to worry about. Anyone who's going to drop the funds needed to get a 4K set and a PS4 in 2013 can afford a few extra bucks for a faster connection with a higher data cap. I pay for 105 Mbps and 600GB/month so I'd be good to go for a weekly new release in 4K, but I cannot afford the TV.
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post #23 of 236
3/1/13 at 5:57am
Welp, looks like we're either going to have to get a corporate ISP account or move to KC....
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post #24 of 236
3/1/13 at 6:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyJonesBSME View Post


It's like buying the first Blu-Ray Player when there were only 3 movies available. Eventually, Blu-Ray became the widely used standard, but for a long while, content was limited. Same with LaserDisc. Same with DVD...and so on.

I have to disagree with you there. We now live in a world where new technology can be purchased at a much lower cost even at the beginning stages because of the chinese market. Take a look at Westinghouse and Seiki for their displays. We didn't have to wait too long to see prices drop. It took at least 5-7 years before we saw 39$ DVD players after it's initial release, roughly 4 years with Blu-ray players and look at 4K, it took a couple of months for a PS4 to announce 4K downloads and a $2000 UHD display.

The TV craze has ended and manufacturers are trying to find ways for us to change out TVs. At this point, I think many are reluctant to changing to the new tech. Especially considering that the difference won't be noticeable above an 80incher... rolleyes.gif
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post #25 of 236
3/1/13 at 6:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

You probably have nothing to worry about. Anyone who's going to drop the funds needed to get a 4K set and a PS4 in 2013 can afford a few extra bucks for a faster connection with a higher data cap. I pay for 105 Mbps and 600GB/month so I'd be good to go for a weekly new release in 4K, but I cannot afford the TV.

So 2 movies and a game demo and you've burned through 1/2 your cap. That's a weekend for me!

tongue.gif

ISP are mostly cable providers. They're already not too happy with netflix and other content delivery systems. I wouldn't be surprised to see them strangling their pipes even more after this announcement in the name of "keeping their system traffic going". They don't even want the well to do to use options with no caps at very high prices, because it still opens the can of worms they're looking to avoid. Cable becoming irrelevant for cheaper and easier al la cart digital content delivery systems.
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post #26 of 236
3/1/13 at 6:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I don't think the idea behind the 4K download is to provide a small file. I think the idea is to provide maximum quality. The COO of Sony Electronics probably has a good idea how large the files will be, and his quote is "typical 4K movies would be "100 gigabytes and plus" depending on length".

You can have a mpeg file that's compressed and has the exact same quality as an uncompressed file.

From my understanding, 4K movies are now distributed on hard drives and they use JPEG2000 as the file format. The reason they don't use mpeg is due to mpeg having issues when there's a lot of movement in a scene. The problem isn't really mpeg itself. Rather the projectors lack sufficient processing ability to decompress the mpeg fast enough and render it smoothly. I recall some of the early DVD players would look blocky during explosion scenes for the same reason.

Ulitmately, what's shown to the viewers is a series of bitmap images made from jpeg images. Typically 24 jpeg images every second. JPEG images are compressed bitmaps and every frame has to be decompressed. MPEG images take compression one step further in that it doesn't have to compress every complete frame. Rather it stores only the pixels that changed between the frames and then compress those changes. So they require an extra step of building the new frame using the old frame and the changed pixels. This requires extra processing power. MPEG files typically intersperse full jpeg frames so if you want to start watching 30 minutes into a movie, you don't have to play the first 30 minutes.

My hunch is newer formats may even take that a step further and add another layer of compression. I.e store the differences of the differences between frames. The drawback is you need more processing power.

The point is both mpeg and jpeg2000 can play the exact same movie with the exact same picture quality. Both can be overcompressed and lose resolution and both can be compressed just enough to maintain all the original content. If the PS4 has good enouhg processing power, it should be able to play perfect images and use smaller files. If not, then maybe Sony is correct and the files will be much larger that what a mpeg file would need.
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post #27 of 236
3/1/13 at 6:14am
Great news. Can't wait for the PS4. I just hope the quality is there for Audio and Video.
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post #28 of 236
3/1/13 at 6:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

You can have a mpeg file that's compressed and has the exact same quality as an uncompressed file.

From my understanding, 4K movies are now distributed on hard drives and they use JPEG2000 as the file format. The reason they don't use mpeg is due to mpeg having issues when there's a lot of movement in a scene. The problem isn't really mpeg itself. Rather the projectors lack sufficient processing ability to decompress the mpeg fast enough and render it smoothly. I recall some of the early DVD players would look blocky during explosion scenes for the same reason.

Ulitmately, what's shown to the viewers is a series of bitmap images made from jpeg images. Typically 24 jpeg images every second. JPEG images are compressed bitmaps and every frame has to be decompressed. MPEG images take compression one step further in that it doesn't have to compress every complete frame. Rather it stores only the pixels that changed between the frames and then compress those changes. So they require an extra step of building the new frame using the old frame and the changed pixels. This requires extra processing power. MPEG files typically intersperse full jpeg frames so if you want to start watching 30 minutes into a movie, you don't have to play the first 30 minutes.

My hunch is newer formats may even take that a step further and add another layer of compression. I.e store the differences of the differences between frames. The drawback is you need more processing power.

The point is both mpeg and jpeg2000 can play the exact same movie with the exact same picture quality. Both can be overcompressed and lose resolution and both can be compressed just enough to maintain all the original content. If the PS4 has good enouhg processing power, it should be able to play perfect images and use smaller files. If not, then maybe Sony is correct and the files will be much larger that what a mpeg file would need.

The real reason you use JPEG2000 is because wavelet compression is scalable, so the 4K video files will be able to render directly to 1080p and likely provide better-than-Blu-ray image quality in the process.
Edited by imagic - 3/1/13 at 6:20am
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post #29 of 236
3/1/13 at 6:31am
This sounds good to me. Data caps are definitely a worry, but unless you support data caps, isn't it good to have Sony and potentially strong market pressure pushing against them? The cable companies won't get much sympathy asserting that you only deserve two modern movies per month without extra charges.

Physical media would be nice too, but better a downloadable option now (and for the future) than needing to wait for a new Blu-ray to be standardized, then buying the hardware to play it, then waiting for it to become popular enough that local stores stock a decent selection, let alone waiting long enough until rental companies offer a decent selection. You'd probably get that 100gb download finished years sooner than you'd need to wait to conveniently rent it on disc.
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post #30 of 236
3/1/13 at 6:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airion View Post

This sounds good to me. Data caps are definitely a worry, but unless you support data caps, isn't it good to have Sony and potentially strong market pressure pushing against them? The cable companies won't get much sympathy asserting that you only deserve two modern movies per month without extra charges.

Physical media would be nice too, but better a downloadable option now (and for the future) than needing to wait for a new Blu-ray to be standardized, then buying the hardware to play it, then waiting for it to become popular enough that local stores stock a decent selection, let alone waiting long enough until rental companies offer a decent selection.

That's the number one issue with physical media, distribution costs are so high it can really hamper the adoption of new technology. Part of reason 3D struggles to catch is the lack of availability due to its reliance on physical media for distribution, the same issues you just highlighted.
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