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my thoughts on optical vs coaxial cables from your player to your DAC, - Page 2

post #31 of 112
3/4/13 at 9:54am
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

In fact many of the things you perceive have nothing to do with your ears. Your perceptions originate in your brain, and the existence of both optical and aural illusions says that the brain is not a perfectly reliable source of such information.

Therefore, the phrase "trust my ears" as it is commonly used is often wrong.

If you are unconvinced by this sort of discussion I can give you readings from authoritative sources that you can use to correct your musunderstandings with.
He will have to read them with his ears. smile.gif Any theory must be proven to his ears because that is all he trusts. Thats what he said.

Let's be patient, eh? I suspect we both know how prevalent this "evidence of my ears" rhetoric really is. It is called "Naive Perception", and a lot of people have never had the opportunities to learn that we did.
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post #32 of 112
3/4/13 at 10:54am
Quote:
I guess i should say that if my ears hear a difference than i am going to trust my ears, unless some one can proove their theory to my ears than i will change my mind. As long as i hear a difference nothing any one says will change my mind. I trust my ears more than what someone tells me.
Well then, why don't we start by proving to you that you can't trust your ears.
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post #33 of 112
3/4/13 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Let's be patient, eh? I suspect we both know how prevalent this "evidence of my ears" rhetoric really is. It is called "Naive Perception", and a lot of people have never had the opportunities to learn that we did.
I will never know as much as you know. Thats why I love this forum and the experts that dwell within. smile.gif
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post #34 of 112
3/4/13 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I will never know as much as you know. Thats why I love this forum and the experts that dwell within. smile.gif

+1
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post #35 of 112
3/4/13 at 5:51pm
Thread Starter 
i will check out that video here in a bit.

one thing i have learned is not to always trust what is on paper or what a computer tells you. for instance when i was a delivery drive the managment would push a bunch of numbers in a computer that was able to tell you how many stops you should make per hour on your rout. say it told me i should 8 stops a hour. that does not sound like much but lets say i left the building at 7 am. at 7.05 i get to my first stop, i have 10 large packages and i need to make 3 trips with the dolly. on the fist trip i need to ring the buzzer and it takes 5 min for some one to let me in, than i need to go back to the truck 2 more times and each trip took 5 min. and just say the first stop took me 20 min to complete. now i only have 40 min to make the next 7 stops now i am running behind. i get to the next stop, its just a small envelope and i can walk right into the building, but no one is at the desk to pick up the package, now i need to go run around the back hallways of the building until i find some one and that stop took 6 min longer than expected. i am on my way to my 3rd stop and there is a broken down car and it takes me 3 min to get around it. at this point i am way behind and i realize that this computer program that tells me how many stops i should be making has no damn clue how many stops a person can make in a hour. it only calculates how long it takes to drive from building to building and how long it would take at each stop if you could just grab your package, run in and run right out with no delays.

at my job now, i have a task list. on paper it looked like it would be the easiest job out of everyones, but once i started doing that job i found out its actually about 10X harder than everyone elses job and the managment just looks at it on the paper and says no you have the easiest job out of every one, look at your task list you only have 5 things to do when this other guy has 15 things on his list. yet one of the things on my list takes over 5 hours to complete because it is so time consuming, where the other guys has 15 things but they can be done in 10-20 min each.. he moves around slow as a turtle all night trying to make his tasks take as long as possible and he still gets done 2 hours early disappears last 2 hours of his shift, he finds some place to hide and do nothing the last 2 hours.. where i am busing my back till the last second running raound in 5th gear the whole time till the last moinute trying to get all of my stuff done in time..

machines and computer programs can tell you allot of things but i realize those things are often not even close to being correct. you can look at that stuff on paper and once you start doing it its can be a complete different story. so i have a pretty strong distrust of allot of things that a machine can tell you, i also know there are allot of things a machine can tell you that you could not know with out the machine but i do not think a machine can hear things the way people do. now if the machine was able to go out and complete the tasks every day for a year and than calculate how many stops a person should make in a hour i would trust it.

i dont know i just really don't trust everything i see in paper. if a machine says a noise is 20db and getting down to 22HZ sure i will beleave that but when a machine says 2 things sound exactly the same i dont trust its able to determine that. its just reading number. hopefully this will make you understand whey i say i am going to trust my ears. so far some machies and programs have been a bunch of BS in some of the lines of work i have done. they have no Clue what its like out there but they sure can come with with some completel crap to make your life 10X harder
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post #36 of 112
3/4/13 at 6:01pm
If you don't trust "machines," why are you buying audio gear???
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post #37 of 112
3/4/13 at 6:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

If you don't trust "machines," why are you buying audio gear???

lol, there is a difference between machines and machines that are trying to calculate what i hear or what i should be doing. its just playing back the audio in a way that is enjoyable to my ear. it all depends on what the machine is trying to tell me weather i trust it or not. my audio gear plays back the audio in a pleasant matter which i enjoy. it;s not calculating some crap that making my life harder. plus hank Williams is dead, its not like he can stop over with a acoustic guitar and play his songs back for me. haha.. some machines and programs are great, but i cant say that is true for every one out there.


any ways i watched that video in the link. that is pretty interesting.
Edited by dannylightning - 3/4/13 at 6:21pm
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post #38 of 112
3/4/13 at 6:23pm
Well, Danny, you're conflating a bunch of different ideas. Can't fault you for being skeptical of computer generated expectations. I've had that problem driving a route myself.

But let me cut to the chase and try to help with a big misconception of yours. I don't think reasonably designed cables, dacs, amps etc sound the same because some computer says they should. I think that because testing with real humans and real human ears has demonstrated that. The key is that when I say testing, I mean controlled testing that removes influences and distractions that make the results unreliable. Influences that were in full swing when you compared your glass vs optical cables. I again urge you to carefully consider the first question I asked... is it necessary to know the brand (identity) of a device in order to listen and evaluate its audio performance? If not, have you ever tried it? If it is, why?
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post #39 of 112
3/4/13 at 6:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Well, Danny, you're conflating a bunch of different ideas. Can't fault you for being skeptical of computer generated expectations. I've had that problem driving a route myself.

But let me cut to the chase and try to help with a big misconception of yours. I don't think reasonably designed cables, dacs, amps etc sound the same because some computer says they should. I think that because testing with real humans and real human ears has demonstrated that. The key is that when I say testing, I mean controlled testing that removes influences and distractions that make the results unreliable. Influences that were in full swing when you compared your glass vs optical cables. I again urge you to carefully consider the first question I asked... is it necessary to know the brand (identity) of a device in order to listen and evaluate its audio performance? If not, have you ever tried it? If it is, why?

test like that i can trust, if they are done with the right people, for instance my dad is tone death and cant hear some frequency's very well, other people can barley tell the difference between a total junk stereo stystem and a 50k dollar stereo system. some some people are not going to give correct results in some of those test. i would assume they weed those kind of people out.


i personally dont have enough equipment to properly do these test quickly and efficiently, if i had two of the same sets of speakers and could easily switch between receivers/amps with out spending several minutes trying to get behind the things and switch all over cables and speakers wires over from one receiver/amp to the next. bottom line is it would just be a huge pain to do this at home. plus i have my stuff in a small room right now, i would not want most people i know to be switching wires around or messing with my equipment,

if i could go some place where they could perform one of these blind test i would be willing to do it. but when it comes to doing one at home it would just be a risky ( unless i had the right person switching stuff) and a big pain.. plus i would like to have a couple more amps that are in the same class.

i am enjoying this thread and what you all have to say. so far its been pretty interesting
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post #40 of 112
3/4/13 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannylightning 

test like that i can trust, if they are done with the right people, for instance my dad is tone death and cant hear some frequency's very well, other people can barley tell the difference between a total junk stereo stystem and a 50k dollar stereo system. some some people are not going to give correct results in some of those test. i would assume they weed those kind of people out.

Ideally yes, controlled tests like this are done with people who claim to be able to hear such differences. In fact, the best test subjects are those who have owned or listened to lots of the gear in question, claim to be able to easily hear these differences and describe them with great detail, and spend quite a bit of their time listening critically to audio equipment. There are plenty of audiophiles who fit that criteria, as well as another pool of perfect test subjects... audio magazine reviewers.

Interestingly, few audiophiles and essentially zero reviewers will agree to participate in a test where their ears, and only their ears, are utilized to evaluate equipment... something they claim to do with ease daily. Strange, no?

But rest assured... even though some of the best candidates refuse to participate, testing of everyone else produced undeniable results. We imagine we hear all sorts of things secondary to all sorts of influences that aren't "real". It isn't really that surprising... we're only human after all.
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post #41 of 112
3/4/13 at 10:19pm
Thread Starter 
I can buy the idea that cables might not make a audibale difference in sound quality even if i think i hear a slight difference. Sure maybe its all in my head

But i have a hard time buying that different amplifiers of different brands that are of good quality will all sound the same. If i had the chance to go listen and test that theory out i would. but trying to do that at home with what i have would not be optimal or easy but i am open to other peoples opinions and research. As of so far i dont agree with everything some of you say because my ears do tell me differently. Especially with different receiveres or intergrated amps.

Sent from tapatalk. spelling will probably be worse than usual
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post #42 of 112
3/5/13 at 1:09am
I have not read this whole thread and have no intentions of doing so. But it has obviously become something entirely different from the beginning. The difference between coax and digital optical cables is one thing. Imo it cannot be said that audio cables as a whole make no difference in sound. That is a huge blanket statement.
And when you start talking about amplifiers you have changed the subject entirely. If someone is stating that ALL amplifiers SOUND THE SAME I think they are misguided at best. Again, that is just too massive of a general statement for me to believe.
The only thing left is speakers. Is someone going to try to say all speakers sound the same? eek.gif
Edited by Bond 007 - 3/5/13 at 1:21am
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post #43 of 112
3/5/13 at 5:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I will never know as much as you know. Thats why I love this forum and the experts that dwell within. smile.gif

+1

I'm humbled.

Let's not get into how naive and mistaken I was about these things when I was the age of many who post here! ;-)
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post #44 of 112
3/5/13 at 5:53am
Machines can correct your spelling.....I'm guessing you don't trust it though.

The human being is a machine...I wouldn't trust them with anything.
Edited by SAM64 - 3/5/13 at 10:29am
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post #45 of 112
3/5/13 at 5:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I have not read this whole thread and have no intentions of doing so. But it has obviously become something entirely different from the beginning. The difference between coax and digital optical cables is one thing. Imo it cannot be said that audio cables as a whole make no difference in sound. That is a huge blanket statement.
And when you start talking about amplifiers you have changed the subject entirely. If someone is stating that ALL amplifiers SOUND THE SAME I think they are misguided at best. Again, that is just too massive of a general statement for me to believe.
The only thing left is speakers. Is someone going to try to say all speakers sound the same? eek.gif

The only people who seem to say that all amplifiers sound the same are the critics of those who say that many and even perhaps most amps are indistinguishable when driving most speakers. ABXing mainstream power amps is about as much fun as watching paint dry.

In fact speakers are the last frontier, and even just testing speakers to see if they sound the same takes a lot of resources because if you move a speaker 6 inches it sounds different. Bottom line, they don't sound the same and often pairs of the same make and model even adjacent serial numbers can be distinguished in an ABX test, given that you are able to overcome the location thing.
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post #46 of 112
3/5/13 at 7:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Ideally yes, controlled tests like this are done with people who claim to be able to hear such differences. In fact, the best test subjects are those who have owned or listened to lots of the gear in question, claim to be able to easily hear these differences and describe them with great detail, and spend quite a bit of their time listening critically to audio equipment. There are plenty of audiophiles who fit that criteria, as well as another pool of perfect test subjects... audio magazine reviewers.

Interestingly, few audiophiles and essentially zero reviewers will agree to participate in a test where their ears, and only their ears, are utilized to evaluate equipment... something they claim to do with ease daily. Strange, no?

But rest assured... even though some of the best candidates refuse to participate, testing of everyone else produced undeniable results. We imagine we hear all sorts of things secondary to all sorts of influences that aren't "real". It isn't really that surprising... we're only human after all.

Good post. It occurs to me that maybe there should be a sticky or even a sub-forum devoted to human factors -- psychological factors, really -- that affect what we hear (and see), which of course happens in our brains and not in our ears (and eyes). Those of us who have watched or participated in these "subjective" vs. "objective" debates for years have seen the same devoted posters repeat the same sound arguments and explanations for countless new posters (and old ones who should have learned better by now). See., e.g., the excellent video about the McGurk effect McNarus posted in this thread. The posters doing the explaining deserve a huge medal each for their patience and persistence. Maybe it would just be easier to link to a sticky or subforum and let the posters thinking they can trust their eyes or ears learn for themselves about human psychology and how our brains trick us daily.

Nah. Who am I kidding? wink.gif
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post #47 of 112
3/5/13 at 11:38am
I don't take the time to be patient and try to summarize what is admittedly a huge field that is counter to many "obvious" human perceptions for every poster here. But occasionally something a poster says catches my eye and tells me he/she likely approaches things in a rather logical, level headed way and may be receptive or even appreciative of some additional info.

Danny struck me as just such a poster, and his last post I think justifies that assumption. He's already willing to consider that maybe "good enough" cables all sound the same, and recognizes that to challenge his beliefs/perceptions regarding power amps might require some thoughtful testing that isn't to be done haphazardly and may require quite a bit of effort. That alone is more rational than many posters who for years rail against the idea that even attempting to control for external influences could have any value.

Maybe one day the thought process started here at AVS will save him a ton of money and net a better overall system at the same time.
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post #48 of 112
3/5/13 at 2:14pm
Quote:
But i have a hard time buying that different amplifiers of different brands that are of good quality will all sound the same.
Just to be clear, the claim that amps sound the same has a couple of provisos:

1) Neither amp is being driven into clipping.

2) Both amps have reasonably flat frequency response.

Most modern solid-state amps, and the amp sections of modern receivers, generally meet these conditions. (Unless you're trying to drive a very inefficient speaker to ear-splitting levels in a barn, in which case #1 is a problem.) Older designs may run into problems with frequency response, often caused by unusual output impedances reacting with speakers.

So a more accurate statement might be, most amps sound the same most of the time. (And note that if an amp sounds different, it is distorting, in one way or another.)

This idea isn't really new, btw. Here's a paper from the 90s summarizing blind tests of amps to that point. It'll cost you $20 to read the whole thing, but here's the conclusion:
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In summary, there has been no evidence to support the conclusion that factors other than linear response and output capability contribute to the sound of well designed power amplifiers...

This does not suggest that amplifiers are perfect and they will never be found to sound different. It does suggest to purchasers of today's audio amplifiers that as long as the product in question meets basic traditional measured performance standards, has enough output capability, and adequate quality of construction, it will be sonically indistinguishable from all others meeting those criteria.

And here's a similar statement from a college textbook on psychoacoustics (Moore, BCJ. An Introduction to the Psychology of Hearing, Fourth Edition. San Diego: Academic Press, 1997):
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The basic performance of even a moderately priced hi-fi amplifier is likely to be so good that improvements in technical specification would make little audible difference. For example, a moderately good amplifier will have a frequency response from 20 to 20,000 Hz +/– 1 dB, distortion less than 1% and a signal-to-noise ratio greater than 90 dB (for input signals with a reasonably high level, such as from a CD player). These values are better than the limits required by the ear.

Finally, another general look at the sticky matter of trusting your ears.
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post #49 of 112
3/5/13 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

It is just 1's & 0's that go through there, so it really does not matter which you used. Even at $20 you still paid too much for that Monster branded cable.

BS. If you have good equipment, cables DO make a difference. As much as you may have been lead to believe it's just 0's and 1's, it's not. A good USB cable makes a huge difference, as I found out. How can that be? Well, good audiophile USB cables have the power portion of the cable better shielded than the rest. For toslink cables it also makes a difference, I've heard it. Data transmission through a glass audiophile toslink transmits better than through a regular toslink that is a polymer and not glass fibers inside. Coax, same thing. It's all about the shielding and the quality of the connectors. There IS a sound difference between rhodium plated, gold plated, silver plated or copper connectors. It all makes a difference.

The only cable I've not noticed a significant difference on is HDMI for some reason.

Again, you have to have a decent enough system to hear a difference. There's no point in putting $100 cables on a $200 piece of equipment.
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post #50 of 112
3/5/13 at 4:30pm
Hi Najibs,
Quote:
Originally Posted by najibs View Post

BS. If you have good equipment, cables DO make a difference. As much as you may have been lead to believe it's just 0's and 1's, it's not. . . . For toslink cables it also makes a difference, I've heard it. Data transmission through a glass audiophile toslink transmits better than through a regular toslink that is a polymer and not glass fibers inside. Coax, same thing. It's all about the shielding and the quality of the connectors. There IS a sound difference between rhodium plated, gold plated, silver plated or copper connectors. It all makes a difference.
Sorry to be so blunt, but you're hallucinating.

Having designed digital systems for 38 years, I know that the quality of the cable makes no difference to the result, up until the point that the signal fails altogether. Weak ones and zeros sound the same as strong ones and zeros, as they will look identical once they pass through the line-receiver. I will grant you that those qualities you mentioned can affect analog signals, but not digital signals. I will also grant that older Toslink systems potentially had problems with jitter, but those issues were manifested in the receiving equipment, and the cables themselves had little effect. And those days are long gone.

A better digital cable can't affect the audio quality any more than a more expensive hard-drive would make a spreadsheet look better. It's the exact same thing.

I always say: The only time two digital cables sound different is when one of them is broken.
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post #51 of 112
3/5/13 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by najibs View Post

BS. If you have good equipment, cables DO make a difference. As much as you may have been lead to believe it's just 0's and 1's, it's not. A good USB cable makes a huge difference, as I found out. How can that be? Well, good audiophile USB cables have the power portion of the cable better shielded than the rest. For toslink cables it also makes a difference, I've heard it. Data transmission through a glass audiophile toslink transmits better than through a regular toslink that is a polymer and not glass fibers inside. Coax, same thing. It's all about the shielding and the quality of the connectors. There IS a sound difference between rhodium plated, gold plated, silver plated or copper connectors. It all makes a difference.
It's basically impossible for a fancy USB cable to make any difference over a standard one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by najibs View Post

The only cable I've not noticed a significant difference on is HDMI for some reason.
I would hope that you haven't noticed any difference with HDMI cables.
Quote:
Originally Posted by najibs View Post

Again, you have to have a decent enough system to hear a difference. There's no point in putting $100 cables on a $200 piece of equipment.
Doesn't matter on the system, or how good your hearing supposedly is.


It's also true that most amplifiers sound the same if they have a flat frequency response, low noise floor, reasonably low distortion, high input impedance, low output impedance, and are not clipped. All but the cheapest amps should be capable of this today. As long as the levels are matched you will not be able to tell the difference between a cheap amplifier and the most expensive amplifier in properly conducted ABX testing. Same thing goes for speaker cables.

If you are hearing a difference, it's not the cables or the amplifier. It's between your ears.
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post #52 of 112
3/5/13 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by najibs View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

It is just 1's & 0's that go through there, so it really does not matter which you used. Even at $20 you still paid too much for that Monster branded cable.

BS. If you have good equipment, cables DO make a difference. As much as you may have been lead to believe it's just 0's and 1's, it's not. A good USB cable makes a huge difference, as I found out. How can that be? Well, good audiophile USB cables have the power portion of the cable better shielded than the rest. For toslink cables it also makes a difference, I've heard it. Data transmission through a glass audiophile toslink transmits better than through a regular toslink that is a polymer and not glass fibers inside. Coax, same thing. It's all about the shielding and the quality of the connectors. There IS a sound difference between rhodium plated, gold plated, silver plated or copper connectors. It all makes a difference.

The only cable I've not noticed a significant difference on is HDMI for some reason.

Again, you have to have a decent enough system to hear a difference. There's no point in putting $100 cables on a $200 piece of equipment.
Really. When it comes down to it, wire is wire. As for putting $100 cables on $200 equipment, there are pleanty out there that put that much on a single cable. Even worse when they put three figures into cables on equipment that costs less than $500 each.

I think total I have spent probably $100 on all of the cables and wire in that I have purchased in the past twelve months, for both my home and our church.
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post #53 of 112
3/5/13 at 5:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It's basically impossible for a fancy USB cable to make any difference over a standard one.
I would hope that you haven't noticed any difference with HDMI cables.
Doesn't matter on the system, or how good your hearing supposedly is.


It's also true that most amplifiers sound the same if they have a flat frequency response, low noise floor, reasonably low distortion, high input impedance, low output impedance, and are not clipped. All but the cheapest amps should be capable of this today. As long as the levels are matched you will not be able to tell the difference between a cheap amplifier and the most expensive amplifier in properly conducted ABX testing. Same thing goes for speaker cables.

If you are hearing a difference, it's not the cables or the amplifier. It's between your ears.

Have you tried it, or are you just basing your response on theory? I used to be skeptical of cables, but they DO make a difference.
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post #54 of 112
3/5/13 at 5:57pm
Have you tried it, or are you just basing your response on theory? I used to be skeptical of cables, but they DO make a difference, after having tested different cables. RCA cables, digital cables, and even power cords. Yes they make a difference, so long as you have the right equipment that can take advantage of it.
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post #55 of 112
3/5/13 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Have you tried it, or are you just basing your response on theory? I used to be skeptical of cables, but they DO make a difference, after having tested different cables. RCA cables, digital cables, and even power cords. Yes they make a difference, so long as you have the right equipment that can take advantage of it.
In science, theories have the status of fact. It is in fact impossible for a digital cable to sound different, other than to fail outright. It is also in fact possible for a human being to imagine he has heard a difference that is not really there. This is what is happening to you.
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post #56 of 112
3/5/13 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by najibs View Post

Have you tried it, or are you just basing your response on theory?
Experience, as well as knowing electronic theory. No one else has ever been able to show me that they can reliably detect one non pathologically bad cable from another either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by najibs View Post

I used to be skeptical of cables, but they DO make a difference, after having tested different cables. RCA cables, digital cables, and even power cords. Yes they make a difference, so long as you have the right equipment that can take advantage of it.
I have always been skeptical about cables but especially about digital ones. If you can see a difference in picture quality as opposed to manifestation of a fault (tearing image, sparkles, or dropouts) with a different HDMI cable, then to quote a fabulous movie line: "Tell him he's dreaming"
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post #57 of 112
3/5/13 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by najibs View Post

Have you tried it, or are you just basing your response on theory? I used to be skeptical of cables, but they DO make a difference, after having tested different cables. RCA cables, digital cables, and even power cords. Yes they make a difference, so long as you have the right equipment that can take advantage of it.
If you can actually find true scientific proof from U of I, MIT, CalTech, we all would like to see it. Again, cables are not going to make a difference, especially power cords, unless they were built so cheap, or have been abused so much, then yes they will throw up problems.
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post #58 of 112
3/5/13 at 7:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by najibs 

BS. If you have good equipment, cables DO make a difference. As much as you may have been lead to believe it's just 0's and 1's, it's not. A good USB cable makes a huge difference, as I found out. How can that be? Well, good audiophile USB cables have the power portion of the cable better shielded than the rest. For toslink cables it also makes a difference, I've heard it. Data transmission through a glass audiophile toslink transmits better than through a regular toslink that is a polymer and not glass fibers inside. Coax, same thing. It's all about the shielding and the quality of the connectors. There IS a sound difference between rhodium plated, gold plated, silver plated or copper connectors. It all makes a difference.

The only cable I've not noticed a significant difference on is HDMI for some reason.

Again, you have to have a decent enough system to hear a difference. There's no point in putting $100 cables on a $200 piece of equipment.

You know, some posters give me that feeling that while understandably misinformed, they may be receptive to information and encouraged to learn more.

Then there are posters who come off giving me the impression that they are so stubborn they will gladly take their sad ignorance to their graves. Welcome to the thread najibs.
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post #59 of 112
3/6/13 at 5:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by najibs View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

It is just 1's & 0's that go through there, so it really does not matter which you used. Even at $20 you still paid too much for that Monster branded cable.

BS. If you have good equipment, cables DO make a difference.

They can make a difference in some ways. If they are shorter than the distance between the distance between the two pieces of equipment: No sound! ;-)
Quote:
As much as you may have been lead to believe it's just 0's and 1's, it's not. A good USB cable makes a huge difference, as I found out. How can that be? Well, good audiophile USB cables have the power portion of the cable better shielded than the rest.

Noise on the power supply for the USB device could make a difference if the USB device lacked the ability to reject that noise. Well-designed USB gear takes this into account.

For example, please check out this schematic of a typical USB device:



The portion the schematic of interest in this discussion is in the lower right hand corner and is composed of 3 large filter capacitors labelled C9, C10, C11 across the 5 volt power line that might be obtained from the USB cable. One of their purposes is to make any noise on the power supply line a moot point. Any USB device that lacks this sort of simple but effective refinement has a design deficiency.

I would sincerely hope that any USB cable would shield the signal wires equal or better than the power connection. IME even commodity USB cables shield all 4 conductors. In short someone appeaqrs to be trying to sell a overpriced product by misrepresenting the requirements, the working environment and the competitive products.

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For toslink cables it also makes a difference, I've heard it.

Inadequacies in a Toslink cable being a digital connection usually takes the form of an audible difference - no signal at all. I've definitely experienced that!

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Data transmission through a glass audiophile toslink transmits better than through a regular toslink that is a polymer and not glass fibers inside.

This can be true if your goal is to exceed the recommended maximum length of Toslink cables. Higher priced glass core Toslink cables can help in this case.

Reality is that for ordinary lengths of just a few meters, it doesn't matter.

But let's play your game:

Is this commodity glass fiber cable:

http://www.amazon.com/Ft-Toslink-Glass-Digital-Audio/dp/B0017YUN3C/ref=sr_1_1



going to sound any better or worse than this one?

http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-class-optical-cable-TosLink/dp/B0006DPOFM



There is an approximate 7:1 difference in price!
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Coax, same thing. It's all about the shielding and the quality of the connectors. There IS a sound difference between rhodium plated, gold plated, silver plated or copper connectors. It all makes a difference.

Actually, it most definitely does not produce better sound. Precious metal (very soft in the case of silver and gold) plating on coax connectors is in this day and age a consumer thing. Professional grade coax connectors as a rule are plated with hard metals (nickle, chrome) because they can take the wear and tear of repeated set ups and take downs. Of course that is moot for consumer cables which may be mated and unmated once or 5 times over their entire service life.

The key to making sense out of the claims and counter claims is fair, reliable listening tests. Sighted evaluations are very likely to give you the answers that you hope for, as opposed to scientific tests that may surprise and even educate you.
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post #60 of 112
3/6/13 at 6:23am
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Well, good audiophile USB cables have the power portion of the cable better shielded than the rest.

Are you worried about data being induced onto the power line?
Why? The power supplies will simply filter it out with a capacitor.

I'm guessing you don't know enough basic electronics to understand electromagnetic induction ...and how it doesn't occur with DC.
...or how coax cables are inherently shielded, otherwise they wouldn't be called coax...or how the electrostatic shield on a coax cable is actually transparent to electromagnetic induction...

there's so much you clearly don't understand...why embarrass yourself by revealing that?
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