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Home Theater Equalizer / Audio Processor - is There Such a Thing?

post #1 of 16
3/1/13 at 9:07am
Thread Starter 
Here is my problem. My Harman Kardon AVR 1700 receiver doesn't have a music listening mode that brings a smile to my face. Nothing wrong with the device, I think. Movies and HD video produce a clean soundtrack, but music ... Sheesh.... I've tried all surround modes. -Dolby PLII, Neo:6, Logic 7 - all deliver one part of the track, but not another. Logic 7 Music (or any other Logic 7) generates excellent bass and low mids, it is pleasantly full bodied , but highs are very shy. Dolby PLII on the other hand creates not so bad high mids and highs, but bass apparently went AWOL. It also sounds quieter and has some boxy quality, like you are listening from inside a box. In addition, it sounds like it is coming from a much smaller center speaker than I have, like one of those cheap $100 centers with 3 inch woofers. So none of the modes provides a complete listening experience.
Yes, I already put the source in TONE: IN and Treble is already at max +10. I even let it run tru TV which also adds additional +10 Treble (connected like this: HTPC=>XBOX360=>HD TV=>receiver).
So, I think this is a limitation of encoding algorithms.
I was thinking - is there such a thing as an external home theater equalizer that will let me manually adjust the highs in Logic 7? Not just any equalizer, but one that will allow adjusting sound without messing with 5.1 encoding. Is there such a thing?
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post #2 of 16
3/1/13 at 10:28am
You keep looking for solutions that you probably don't need. You sound issues are most likely related to your setup procedure, not the inherent short comings of your receiver.

For one, you are defeating your AVR's Auto EQ by using the bass/treble controls.

I know you have a Sunfire sub, but which one? Also, remind me of your other speakers, would you?

What are you settings for:

Speaker Config (size)
Speaker Levels
Crossover
Distance
LFE
Bass (i.e. LFE+Main)

What are the dimensions of your room? A pic would be very helpful.

Quote:
I even let it run tru TV which also adds additional +10 Treble (connected like this: HTPC=>XBOX360=>HD TV=>receiver).

confused.gif HUH? Am I reading this right - you're running everything through your TV before getting to the AVR? Why are you doing that?

To answer your question: yes, there are options for EQ in a home theater. Most options are skewed towards subwoofers, but you can EQ full range if you have pre-outs on your AVR and you are using outboard amplification.
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post #3 of 16
3/1/13 at 11:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

confused.gif HUH? Am I reading this right - you're running everything through your TV before getting to the AVR? Why are you doing that?.
Alan, because of lack of treble I connected XBOX to TV. The optical output from TV goes to the receiver. DVR is connected as it should be - straight to recever, then HDMI goes to TV. The reason for the cumbersome XBOX connection is that TV +10 bass and +10 treble goes to receiver, which ads its own tone adjustment. This way I get enough treble to enjoy music. If I connect XBOX to the receiver half of the highs are missing.
I am using a universal remote which has all of the connections pre-programmed. So, I push XBOX button on the remote and it switches to TV for picture and receiver for sound. If I press TV on the remote, it switches to TV on Console, Xbox as source and receiver on Game.
I found which receiver mode works good for the music. It is Stereo=>5 Channel. Sounds like it should. No more Logic 7 now. Plenty of bass, treble and volume. For DVR I use Logic 7, though. It remembers my preferences and I dont have to switch surround modes at all when changing sources. Problem solved.
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post #4 of 16
3/1/13 at 11:51am
Dude, you are really messing with your signal by running it through your TV and adding even MORE treble - I can't imagine how that sounds, but it just can't be good.

Using "5 Channel Stereo" for serious music listening is certainly not even close to optimal- but if you like it, who am I to contradict you. rolleyes.gif

From your AVR's manual:
5-Channel Stereo
Useful for parties, the left- and right-channel information is played through both
the front and surround speakers on each side, while the center speaker plays a
summed mono mix.

You obviously are not interested in optimizing your audio system/experience since you skipped over every single one of my questions except one, so I'll just let you enjoy it "your way". tongue.gif

In reference to your original question; you need to take some serious time and get your system working the best it can before you even start thinking about adding things like outboard EQ.
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post #5 of 16
3/1/13 at 12:45pm
Thread Starter 
No, Alan, if I am missing something I would like to correct it.
If you can help me increase treble with internal EQ I will make all the necessary adjustments and will reconnect everything as it should be.
Here are the answers:

What are you settings for:

Speaker Config (size) LARGE for all
Speaker Levels: FL 0, C +3, FR 0, SL +2, SR +2, SUB 0
Crossover: 60Hz
Distance: 7, 7, 7, 3, 3, 10
LFE: 10
Bass (i.e. LFE+Main): LFE+L/R

What are the dimensions of your room? A pic would be very helpful.
The room is small. Its an open office - about W10xD20XH10, but one corner is open into a two storey great room that has steps that lead upstairs (30 feet high). So, it is irregular. Sub placement is a nightmare here.







But since is it powerful (HRS-10) it has plenty of juice even for this room.

Let me know if any other info is needed.
Like I wrote before:

"Yes, I already put the source in TONE: IN and Treble is already at max +10."
Edited by grigorianvlad - 3/1/13 at 2:05pm
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post #6 of 16
3/1/13 at 1:06pm
Thread Starter 
Oh my god, what was I watching?
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post #7 of 16
3/1/13 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post

Oh my god, what was I watching?

Jerry Springer?? biggrin.gif

Let's start slow...first of all, you should not have all your speakers set to large, you may risk damaging your speakers that way. You say you have your crossover set to 60hz but you have ALL speakers set to large so this crossover means nothing to your FL/R, center or surrounds - all it is doing is limiting your sub to only playing frequencies less than 60hz. Your FL/R, center and surrounds are receiving a full range signal containing lower frequencies that they most likely can't reproduce - a waste of amp power and bad for the speakers as well as your sound quality.

What settings did your auto EQ end up with for speaker sizes? I know from your other thread that is set all crossovers to 60hz (at least that's what you said).

You still have not said what all your speakers are, including the model of your sub.

Since you are having major trouble with the higher frequencies (treble) and from what I can tell in the pics, your room doesn't look overly-damped, I just have to ask - when was the last time you've had your hearing checked?

Your FL/R speakers may need to be further apart, should be toed in and probably pulled away from the wall a bit. Are your speakers ported in the back?

Your center should be out to the edge of that stand you have it on in order to reduce reflections off of the stand. It should also be angled up so the speaker points directly at your head at the MLP.

Let's start with that. biggrin.gif
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post #8 of 16
3/1/13 at 2:12pm
Oh, and get your AVR off of that DVR! You're gonna burn up one or both of them in no time like that.
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post #9 of 16
3/1/13 at 2:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

when was the last time you've had your hearing checked?

My wife is asking me why am I laughing. I showed her you post and she says you are right, I am practically deaf. She is talking about my tendency to crank the volume up (not necessarily the missing highs). You are right, though. As you get older the highest discernible frequency limit falls to 10KHz-12kHz (as opposed to 18kHz-20Hz which is the normal limit for young people). Lows aren't affected. Still, I tested myself, I can hear up to 16kHz.
In any case, even though my hearing isn't what it used to be, setting Surround Mode to Stereo, 5 Channel Stereo makes the sound right. Highs are crisp. So, even though I am an old fart, this mode gives me no grief. So, I will keep it like that for XBOX only. Logic 7 I will keep for movies.
I appreciate your input. Here is my takeaway:
1) Crossover should go up to 80Hz
2) Speaker size should not be LARGE
3) As far as positioning is concerned, I will keep that in mind. Not much I can do about it now - not enough space here. The positioning isnt going to help with the highs anyway, even if it still was a problem.
Thanks for the input and much needed levity, Alan. Pleasure to chat with you!
smile.gif
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post #10 of 16
3/1/13 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Jerry Springer?? biggrin.gif

Let's start slow...first of all, you should not have all your speakers set to large, you may risk damaging your speakers that way. You say you have your crossover set to 60hz but you have ALL speakers set to large so this crossover means nothing to your FL/R, center or surrounds - all it is doing is limiting your sub to only playing frequencies less than 60hz. Your FL/R, center and surrounds are receiving a full range signal containing lower frequencies that they most likely can't reproduce - a waste of amp power and bad for the speakers as well as your sound quality.

What settings did your auto EQ end up with for speaker sizes? I know from your other thread that is set all crossovers to 60hz (at least that's what you said).

You still have not said what all your speakers are, including the model of your sub.

Since you are having major trouble with the higher frequencies (treble) and from what I can tell in the pics, your room doesn't look overly-damped, I just have to ask - when was the last time you've had your hearing checked?

Your FL/R speakers may need to be further apart, should be toed in and probably pulled away from the wall a bit. Are your speakers ported in the back?

Your center should be out to the edge of that stand you have it on in order to reduce reflections off of the stand. It should also be angled up so the speaker points directly at your head at the MLP.

Let's start with that. biggrin.gif

RE: Center

That center appears to be about ear height when seated on the couch. Is that correct?

If so, then I dont necessarily think you need to angle it up
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post #11 of 16
3/1/13 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post

The positioning isnt going to help with the highs anyway, even if it still was a problem.

It most certainly can help, especially toe in on your mains and correct positioning of your center.

Since you get sufficient high frequencies in "5 Channel Stereo" mode, I'm guessing that is because of the added high frequencies from your surround speakers - maybe you should swap your FL/R for your surrounds. Sounds like they may be more capable speakers - of course, I'm just guessing because you STILL haven't said what speakers you have.
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post #12 of 16
3/1/13 at 2:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

RE: Center

That center appears to be about ear height when seated on the couch. Is that correct?

If so, then I dont necessarily think you need to angle it up

RIght, Purpose. Picture number 2 was taken while sitting. The center is at my ears height, so I dont think it needs any adjustments
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post #13 of 16
3/1/13 at 2:44pm
Personally, music should be listened to in Stereo. And that's when it sounds best to me.

When you start adding in the synthesizer crap to make it come out of 5/7 speakers, then it sounds like crap.
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post #14 of 16
3/1/13 at 2:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryWA View Post

Personally, music should be listened to in Stereo. And that's when it sounds best to me.

When you start adding in the synthesizer crap to make it come out of 5/7 speakers, then it sounds like crap.

Gary, to each is own, but Stereo sounds far inferior to 5 Channel Stereo in this receiver. Everything is much more detailed and multi-dimentional. You can almost "see" the music, so to speak. You can visualize the instruments, their location before you, it isn't just a pretty melody with a punchy bass. This was not the case with my previous receivers. 5 Channel or Surround music modes were an embarrassment back then. Not in this though. I am listening to Pink Floyd's Time right now. Jesus, Mary and Joseph! My dogs took off to the front door after hearing all those clock chimes. They have never done it with the previous gear and I play that track all the time!

But my guess is that your fronts are better than mine. If I had B&W Diamonds or something in that league I bet I wouldn't touch that Stereo button myself.
Edited by grigorianvlad - 3/1/13 at 3:08pm
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post #15 of 16
3/1/13 at 3:12pm
Well, your speakers are still a mystery, soooooo.......

Hmmm...Pink Floyd and 5 Channel Stereo - must take you back to those "quadrophonic" days, eh? wink.gif
Quote:
Stereo sounds far inferior to 5 Channel Stereo in this receiver

It is most likely not the receiver...in fact, I'd bet on it.
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post #16 of 16
3/1/13 at 3:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post


Hmmm...Pink Floyd and 5 Channel Stereo - must take you back to those "quadrophonic" days, eh? wink.gif

Right, Pink Floyd is my second favorite performer. After Cole Porter. We listened to a lot of him back in the Herbert Hoover's days. I will crank him up real good as soon as I figure out how to connect my good old gramophone to the AVR. They don't seem to be compatible from the first glance. But it hard for me to tell because I am almost blind after that mustard gas attack when I fought against the Germans under Pas-de-Calais in 1911!

As far as the speakers are concerned they are K-something (either KEF of KLF or something like that) and Technics STBs as far as I recall. The center is Bic America VK-6LCR. I am selling a brand new one on ebay right now, starting at $0.99.
Edited by grigorianvlad - 3/1/13 at 9:47pm
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