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First build - Octo SI 18's with flat packs. - Page 5

post #121 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Ok, I don't get it... what does AIY mean? redface.gifsmile.gif

Assemble it yourself??

I think.
post #122 of 790
Thread Starter 
FOH, since sound quality improves with adding drivers would you say that any slight differences between the Dayton and SI drivers when you are comparing 1 to 1 will be pretty much gone when you have 8 drivers and with both setups the sound quality will be much closer if not identical?

BTW, for anyone curious about the sound differences I'm not saying I can tell for sure if there is one using my 1 SI driver. However, since I don't have the Dayton in my room anymore I can't compare head to head. I'd like to do that eventually.
post #123 of 790
Carp
Unless you have a specific goal or are just wanting to try something different then Identical is always best. THX always stresses the word Identical when giving recomendations for both speakers and subs. Even if you can't hear or measure the difference there will be one.smile.gif The drivers have become cheaper due to the increased demand & ability to buy direct from SI. If you could purchase straight from Dayton Audio the price would go down. Same even goes for TC Sounds if they had a satilite store here that sold direct.
2 cents from
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 3/8/13 at 7:46am
post #124 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Carp
Unless you have a specific goal or are just wanting to try something different then Identical is always best. THX always stresses the word Identical when giving recomendations for both speakers and subs. Even if you can't hear or measure the difference there will be one.smile.gif The drivers have become cheaper due to the increased demand & ability to buy direct from SI. If you could purchase straight from Dayton Audio the price would go down. Same even goes for TC Sounds if they had a satilite store here that sold direct.
2 cents from
Chris

I'm not wanting to mix and match drivers I'm definitely set on 8 SI's I'm just always curious how gear compares.

Dayton is already crazy low, not much more than the SI's when you factor in shipping.
post #125 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Of course I understand that you wouldn't want to post any specific design differences that are unique to the SI's, I'm just wondering if you can speak generally why you can get such great sound for so little and why this seems to just now be the case.

Talking to Nick in depth, I'm convinced it comes down to engineering, logistical and manufacturing efficiencies he and Jacob have gained over their years in the audio game. As far as design differences, that's beyond me at this particular point in time man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziedog View Post

Assemble it yourself??

I think.

Yep. Like legos, but with glue. Or in Edoggs case, getting a completely assembled Lego Death Star and adding the Darth Vader lego man on top. Don't worry man, nobody cares "how" the boxes were constructed when you go full attack mode with the Quads!

biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

FOH, since sound quality improves with adding drivers would you say that any slight differences between the Dayton and SI drivers when you are comparing 1 to 1 will be pretty much gone when you have 8 drivers and with both setups the sound quality will be much closer if not identical?

BTW, for anyone curious about the sound differences I'm not saying I can tell for sure if there is one using my 1 SI driver. However, since I don't have the Dayton in my room anymore I can't compare head to head. I'd like to do that eventually.

Gorilla and I tried to pull that off back in December. Too bad one of the SI prototypes sustained some shipping damage on its way to my house or the data would be up… I was browsing the other day and (in addition to Ricci's write up on Data-Bass), it looks like SI has the Klippel measurements for the Dayton HO… http://stereointegrity.com/index.php?id=50

Those are the only two points of reference I have at the moment. Still want to punch UPS in the face for messing up our Head-to-Head…
post #126 of 790
Thread Starter 
Kevin and I got 4 done and powered up today! I put one in each front corner and 1 on each sidewall towards the back of the room. We didn't get to listen much but I was very happy with what I heard. I've had more output in my room but the bass has never sounded so smooth. Watch the measurements not back me up but that's what it seemed like to me.

We watched iron man 2 acdc scene at 3 under reference (Kevin if you see this I forgot that -1.5 is reference on my receiver so -4.5 was actually -3 not that it really matters) with the bass 5 hot and it sounded better than I have heard that scene in my room before. The clip light and briefly the protect light both blinked on the cv 5000 amp so I'm so glad I got 8, 4 would not have done it for me.

I did notice that the low notes were a bit weak on bass I love you and Kevin noticed the same on art of flight Alaska so I definitely need the minidsp.

Pics and graphs to follow, I'm really excited.
post #127 of 790
How did you have the four configured on the amp? One channel for four? Or were you running two per channel?

Are you going to need a second amp?
post #128 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

How did you have the four configured on the amp? One channel for four? Or were you running two per channel?

Are you going to need a second amp?

All 4 were run off the same channel, so I think I'll be fine. Voice coils are wired in series, and subs are wired in parallel for a 2 ohm load. 600 something watts per driver. This way I won't hurt the drivers no matter how crazy I get... and I do plan to get crazy. biggrin.gif
post #129 of 790
Carp - Did you get D4's? One channel pushing 4 of those badboys is no where near enough to get them to potential. biggrin.gif

I can tell you that two of my subs (4 daytons) take everything my crown xls5000 has to give in bridged mode. eek.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 3/9/13 at 6:42pm
post #130 of 790
One channel for four. I didn't see the protect light and honestly find it very hard to believe it'd come on for two reasons. One is that those lights bleed a little bit, so it's easy to think you see one from across the room when you don't (or to just see the wrong light completely). Two, we were pushing the Daytons way harder (in terms of frequency of clip lights) than we were the SI's and we never saw that with the Daytons. We didn't try to repeat it, obviously.
post #131 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Carp - Did you get D4's? One channel pushing 4 of those badboys is no where near enough to get them to potential. biggrin.gif

I can tell you that two of my subs (4 daytons) take everything my crown xls5000 has to give in bridged mode. eek.gif


It can't be too far off, I'm putting 625 watts (or something close to that) per driver and they are rated for 600 watts. Granted that's in a 6 cu ft box and I'm using 4 cu ft but it still has to be pushing them pretty hard. The SI's don't need as much power as the Daytons. I do like that I'm amp limited and not driver limited, I have a feeling that I'm not going to hurt the amp either.
post #132 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

One channel for four. I didn't see the protect light and honestly find it very hard to believe it'd come on for two reasons. One is that those lights bleed a little bit, so it's easy to think you see one from across the room when you don't (or to just see the wrong light completely). Two, we were pushing the Daytons way harder (in terms of frequency of clip lights) than we were the SI's and we never saw that with the Daytons. We didn't try to repeat it, obviously.

Yeah, it could have been just the clip light, it doesn't make sense that they would both flicker and that's what it looked like.
post #133 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

It can't be too far off, I'm putting 625 watts (or something close to that) per driver and they are rated for 600 watts. Granted that's in a 6 cu ft box and I'm using 4 cu ft but it still has to be pushing them pretty hard. The SI's don't need as much power as the Daytons. I do like that I'm amp limited and not driver limited, I have a feeling that I'm not going to hurt the amp either.

Both my crown and the cv are power spec'd at 1000hz. They still have a fair amount of power down low, but I wouldn't bet on getting 625 per driver, especially in the sub 20hz region. After comparing against my clone amp this became a bit more obvious.

Either way with all 8 running you are likely to have more headroom than is reasonable. tongue.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 3/10/13 at 5:37am
post #134 of 790
Thread Starter 
Ok, so here is the first placement option. 1 sub in each front corner behind the mains, and 1 sub under each side surround.





Ok, it may have sounded smooth but it sure the hell is NOT! Below is a comparison of 1 SI in the front right corner compared to quads how they are setup in the picture. Same settings on the master volume and sub volume, just 4 subs instead of 1.

This is subs only, no speakers.

I don't understand why my snapshots are showing 10 db increments on the left? I have it set to 5 db increments but when I go to save it in a snapshot it changes to 10 dbs. I know there is a way to change that but I can't remember how... help!!




Distance/delays are set the same so I assume that could be a big part of the problem? Wow, 18 db dropoff from 30hz to 20hz. Not good.

Ok, I'm going to try other placements.

And I'm not using the mbm-12 for now.
post #135 of 790
Maybe one on each side of the Center?
post #136 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

Maybe one on each side of the Center?

Ha, read my mind that's what I'm currently doing. smile.gif
post #137 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Ha, read my mind that's what I'm currently doing. smile.gif

Awesome. HTFU, we're waiting...
post #138 of 790
Thread Starter 
Well, too bad I was liking how the subs looked up front like this. Measurements are even worse.







Uggghhhh..





Hmmm, ok so I guess I could try moving the front subs to the front side walls but I'm betting that won't make much difference. I have a feeling that the placement of the subs under the side surrounds is not good for low frequencies and I'm kind of stumped as to where to put them in the back half of the room if that is the case. I could figure out a way to put one (or stack 2) in the back corner by the computer (huge PIA to make space for it) but that still leaves 2 subs that I don't have a spot for. I think I need to have 4 subs in the back of the room somewhat the same distance from my LP and along the side walls but not all the way back to the corner is really the only way to do that.... but it measures terrible!!
post #139 of 790
OK, help me understand that graph. I get that a 20db drop from 25hz to 20hz is NOT good, but do you want to bring it (around 25hz) down or up (around 20hz)?
post #140 of 790
What are you using for EQ? Once you have all 8 in the mix, you'll have enough headroom to bring down 30-60 range and bring up the lows. I think having them 2 or 4 up front might still work out for you. Hard to tell before all are in place. But you can do a lot with a minidsp, for example, with as much headroom as you'll have.
post #141 of 790
Prior to dismissing any scenario, some simple manipulation in the time delay between the two sets could easily yield great results (or just as easily not redface.gif ).
post #142 of 790
In addition to what FOH said, moving them out slightly from reflective surfaces (walls) might help, too: 4-8 inches.

Perhaps also try a single sub or combinations therein to find out where specific response profiles (and room modes) are most excited.

Experiment and see what you can come up with - lots of options to explore, and it's worth it to get placement right, then delay, then EQ if necessary.
post #143 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

OK, help me understand that graph. I get that a 20db drop from 25hz to 20hz is NOT good, but do you want to bring it (around 25hz) down or up (around 20hz)?

With a mini dbp we can bring it up some, 6db's if I understand correctly. All the higher stuff can be brough down but I don't like that. With my sms-1 I did a ton of pulling down and then raising all, and it caused compression at not very loud spl's with my Submersives. I don't know much, but I feel like any excessive eq even if it's pulling down is harmful.
post #144 of 790
Thread Starter 
Ok, here is the "piss the wife off" configuration. She tells me I can do what I want with my room, but I have a feeling if I have subs stacked at the bottom of the stairs where she has to pass a lot to do laundry she ain't gonna be happy.









Whewww.... I'm relieved that spot didn't measure well, I really didn't want to do that.


Now, like FOH says maybe one of these will work just fine when I start messing with the distance settings. Man I wish I had true dual sub output on my receiver I could do it right now.
post #145 of 790
Thread Starter 
So far all the measurements are looking basically the same.
post #146 of 790
I think the rear sub's first placement showed, is pretty close to a winner. I think some small adjustments to the fronts may be in order, but again close there too. I'd try time domain first, as one can easily see the 1/4 wave distance of the 50hz and up range is what's at play. The bottom can be brought up with what boost needed.

Time domain is key here, IMO.
post #147 of 790
That last graph looks great to me.

You're not using any LT boost, correct?
post #148 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

So far all the measurements are looking basically the same.

Are you basing this on the sub 30hz stuff? This is all handled via LT boosting. I'd suspect Audyssey could extend that last response, the "piss off the wife" position. Audyssey is very adept at bottom end boosting and compensation.

The last response you showed looked pretty good through the upper modal region covered by the subs.
post #149 of 790
Thread Starter 
FOH, yeah I was looking mostly at how quick things dropped off after 30hz. Here is my 3 configurations so far.




Yeah, I was wrong they aren't that similar.

What I don't like about the black line, or the piss off the wife configuration, is that I'm down a lot around 100hz. Every measurement I've done in the past in my room I have a dip at 100hz, doesn't matter where I set the crossover or even when I run speakers only full range. It looks like in the yellow line, or how Kevin and I had them set up yesterday, that is fixed. It's also good in the red line or SI's next to the center channel but I have a big dip at 70hz with that setup.

FOH, you don't think the back corners or black line is that much better than the yellow do you? Man, I really want to avoid that placement if I can.
post #150 of 790
No, it's not that much better.

As long as the quadrants are driven, put them where you want where they work best and where you'll like them, because I'm guessing the response will be quite good with some manipulation in time domain.
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