or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › First build - Octo SI 18's with flat packs.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

First build - Octo SI 18's with flat packs. - Page 2

post #31 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Erich are you sending my driver soon? I can't be stuck with a measly 7 subs, oh the horror! biggrin.gif

On your next seven boxes, Run the interior seams, before placing the last side piece. Much easier to do and you will use less glue. I do this after gluing each panel. Then when gluing the last side panel in place, just reach in and run your finger over the inside sealing the joint with the excess glue that squeezed out. Add more glue if needed. As someone else said above, sand the box down and you will use hardly any filler. On my speakers, I did not use any fasteners, only glue. After a good sanding, I did not have much filling to do.
Reply
Reply
post #32 of 790
Thread Starter 
Fired it up!!!! I guess we should have taken some pictures before I put it on top of the Submersive to compare sound quality but oh well. Kevin and I started gluing Friday night, and it's up and running by Sunday around noon, not too bad!! smile.gif

Not going to push it real hard yet, don't want to blow it up with the CV amp.






So far VERY initial impression is that it sounds a lot like the Dayton which is to say similar to the Submersive but a "weightier" sound.

I'm going to to back and forth today and do a lot of comparing for music and hopefully I like it as much as the Submersive.
post #33 of 790
SWEEET!!

seems like they do break in a little bit
post #34 of 790
Thread Starter 
Subs only, no mains crossover at 200hz.



Not sure why it goes by 10 db on the left, it wasn't like that until I created a snapshot. The saved curve file has 5 db increments. I remember that happened to me before when I did snapshots and I cant' remember how to fix it.
post #35 of 790
Is that a single SI w/o EQ vs a Submersive? If so, once you apply an LT and start adding in additional subs....boy oh boy. I've got my 2 SI 18s off an EP2500 and have never been so happy with my HT. I've almost literally rewatched all my heavy hitter bass flicks this weekend.
post #36 of 790
Noesis, sub, and SI all in the same room. You lucky SOB. tongue.gif
post #37 of 790
Carp,

i hope your theater is close to the same lvl as your workspace, i just carried one of mine up to the 3rd floor from the basement, not a fun time
post #38 of 790
Thread Starter 
thanks for the comments guys, I'll reply later - today I've been busy!!

I got the bracing done in all of the 7 remaining boxes. Thank god for the brad nail gun!!



To nail it so I could take off the clamps I used 2 paint cans and nailed from underneath, picking it up and rotating it 90 degrees repeat until all sides done and then on to the next box/bracing. It went really quick.



I even started putting another box together, it was going great until I ran out of that PL glue. I stopped at that point and will resume tomorrow. I can see why people like this, I enjoyed it today. Thanks Kevin for letting me use all the tools!

post #39 of 790
Thread Starter 
Just to clarify 100%, do I need to put the PL premium glue where the bracing meets the other boards? I hope not i went through that first bottle and I'm not even done with the 2nd box!
post #40 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

On your next seven boxes, Run the interior seams, before placing the last side piece. Much easier to do and you will use less glue. I do this after gluing each panel. Then when gluing the last side panel in place, just reach in and run your finger over the inside sealing the joint with the excess glue that squeezed out. Add more glue if needed. As someone else said above, sand the box down and you will use hardly any filler. On my speakers, I did not use any fasteners, only glue. After a good sanding, I did not have much filling to do.

Thanks man, yeah it was so much easier this way, too bad I ran out glue.
post #41 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Is that a single SI w/o EQ vs a Submersive? If so, once you apply an LT and start adding in additional subs....boy oh boy. I've got my 2 SI 18s off an EP2500 and have never been so happy with my HT. I've almost literally rewatched all my heavy hitter bass flicks this weekend.

Yes both subs had no eq. Are you using LT on yours? Minidsp?
post #42 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Yes! Good to see your build kicking off and to see some progress. A huge +1 from me on spreading the subs out, including the back of the room. biggrin.gif

I don't know if it will work as well in my room, I can't use the back corners only the side walls next to my lp but its a good 8 feet away from me if I use those spots. How far are you from your near field subs?
post #43 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I don't know if it will work as well in my room, I can't use the back corners only the side walls next to my lp but its a good 8 feet away from me if I use those spots. How far are you from your near field subs?

like 2 feet biggrin.gif

he may as well be sitting on them
post #44 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Just to clarify 100%, do I need to put the PL premium glue where the bracing meets the other boards? I hope not i went through that first bottle and I'm not even done with the 2nd box!

Anything touching needs to have glue between it. Your probably using a lot more pl than you need to. Remember , it expands.
post #45 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yes both subs had no eq. Are you using LT on yours? Minidsp?

The reason I asked is because the Submersive has EQ from the factory (2 modes, I believe). So you are comparing a finished product to a driver in a box. Lots more potential for the deep stuff.

Yes, I applied an LT on my Minidsp with 1 db at 34 Hz up to 3 db at 10 Hz. Then Audyssey applied another 4 to the lows. I'm flat to 5 Hz in my room now, and with the Buttkicker unit I have that tactile feel my floors would never allow for. I've gone through a number of setups over the last year. It's only now that I feel I have a REAL home theater. Can't imagine what 8 are going to do for you.
post #46 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I don't know if it will work as well in my room, I can't use the back corners only the side walls next to my lp but its a good 8 feet away from me if I use those spots. How far are you from your near field subs?

Oh yeah as Sibuna said, I'm pretty close. One of them is about 2 feet to my left and the other about 4 feet to the right of the primary LP. What about an 'end table' setup next to the couches?
post #47 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

Carp,

i hope your theater is close to the same lvl as your workspace, i just carried one of mine up to the 3rd floor from the basement, not a fun time

Yeah, that would be rough. No, my basement is just half a staircase away from the garage so it's very close.
post #48 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Oh yeah as Sibuna said, I'm pretty close. One of them is about 2 feet to my left and the other about 4 feet to the right of the primary LP. What about an 'end table' setup next to the couches?

Don't have the space. As you can see I have the skinniest end tables possible. The recliner on the right is all the way up next to that right wall.

post #49 of 790
How about in between the loveseat and recliner?
post #50 of 790
Thread Starter 
There isn't much room there, but yeah that could be an option.

I told Kevin yesterday that any placement of the subs that aren't up front are really going to have to wow me since it will look much better to have the subs stacked in the corners and/or under the screen. Also, my kids are well trained but when friend's kids come over it's a free for all and that driver is begging to be punched and kicked. It they are all stacked behind the speakers from floor to ceiling they will be much safer. However, at the end of the day sound quality will win out over all other considerations.
post #51 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

However, at the end of the day sound quality will win out over all other considerations.

cool.gif

What about back in the corner, where the PC and waste-basket are?

What about the wall space, above your desk ... elevated, ceiling hung/wall hung? I know that seems radical, but wth, kick it around.

I suspect there will be much to be gained FR wise, by placement of at least two of them somewhere behind the LP. Imagine the room in quadrants ... the LP being the cross of the X/Y axis. Acoustic sources in any quadrant can benefit from cancellation by a source energizing the opposite room quadrant. That said, implementing them in diagonal, or cross quadrants, can address both directions ... X and Y. You're driving both halves of the width and the length.

IOW, simply having the subs behind the front right main, and in the rear wastebasket corner, only addresses the front to back modes. By spreading them over both axis, helps significantly .

Other techniques include massive absorption opposite boundary from all the sources. Like highly capable flush mounted main monitors in a studio, they absolutely require massive LF attenuation off the rear wall. Simply bringing them off the boundary and mounting them on stands in the room, off the front wall a few feet, dramatically lessens the need for rear wall absorption/attenuation. Point being, whatever subs remain upfront by the front boundary, the need for doing something in the rear of the room exists.

Sure, this is all conjecture. But again, you're trending toward some wicked capability/serious firepower. And as seen in the OmniMic graph in post #34, the room owns the sub's response. It's all about the room.
post #52 of 790
Redundant?? No way! You gotta have your own build thread. smile.gif

Isn't this your first, Carp?

So looks like things are on their way already. Great! Yes, because you are using only two channels of power you will have effectively only two positions to really take advantage of. I like the idea of stereo towers (or mega cube) behind the Noe's. That's a good first configuration to try out. Also, maybe a front/back setup with four up front, two flanking each side of the center and then a mega cube near your computer desk or as a tower in the back corner.

More amplifer channels will give you that placement flexibility you were interested in. Not that you cannot still try but your ability to use delays and EQ more effectively will be more limited until you get more.
post #53 of 790
i dont see how the two channels stops you from spreading them around a little more. just need to be creative on the wiring wink.gif
post #54 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

i dont see how the two channels stops you from spreading them around a little more. just need to be creative on the wiring wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Not that you cannot still try but your ability to use delays and EQ more effectively will be more limited until you get more.

wink.gif
post #55 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

cool.gif

What about back in the corner, where the PC and waste-basket are?

What about the wall space, above your desk ... elevated, ceiling hung/wall hung? I know that seems radical, but wth, kick it around.

I suspect there will be much to be gained FR wise, by placement of at least two of them somewhere behind the LP. Imagine the room in quadrants ... the LP being the cross of the X/Y axis. Acoustic sources in any quadrant can benefit from cancellation by a source energizing the opposite room quadrant. That said, implementing them in diagonal, or cross quadrants, can address both directions ... X and Y. You're driving both halves of the width and the length.

IOW, simply having the subs behind the front right main, and in the rear wastebasket corner, only addresses the front to back modes. By spreading them over both axis, helps significantly .

Other techniques include massive absorption opposite boundary from all the sources. Like highly capable flush mounted main monitors in a studio, they absolutely require massive LF attenuation off the rear wall. Simply bringing them off the boundary and mounting them on stands in the room, off the front wall a few feet, dramatically lessens the need for rear wall absorption/attenuation. Point being, whatever subs remain upfront by the front boundary, the need for doing something in the rear of the room exists.

Sure, this is all conjecture. But again, you're trending toward some wicked capability/serious firepower. And as seen in the OmniMic graph in post #34, the room owns the sub's response. It's all about the room.

Do you think the 2 side placements I talked about are not enough? They are about 6 -7 feet from the back wall along the side wall slightly behind my main LP. I don't want to put a sub in the back corner because the magnet will be so close to the computer.

Thanks for the information, you've given me a lot to think about - I wish I had more area on that back wall but the staircase, bathroom, and closet take up a lot of area. Ha, heck if I had the first clue how to build a stand for a sub above the desk I might actually do it - if of course, it made a big difference.
post #56 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Do you think the 2 side placements I talked about are not enough? They are about 6 -7 feet from the back wall along the side wall slightly behind my main LP. I don't want to put a sub in the back corner because the magnet will be so close to the computer.

Thanks for the information, you've given me a lot to think about - I wish I had more area on that back wall but the staircase, bathroom, and closet take up a lot of area. Ha, heck if I had the first clue how to build a stand for a sub above the desk I might actually do it - if of course, it made a big difference.

He summed up most of this in post 9 IMO

"However experimentation rules the day."

"I'm thinking I'd try a spread across the front, and the remaining four spread across the back (two in each rear corner maybe), would address both width, and depth modes. The two amp EQ'able amp channels could align levels and arrival time to properly match the subs as a group to the mains. Keeping the members of each of the two sub groups essentially equidistant from the LP, you'll be fine.

This should be quite interesting. Be mindful, you'd likely benefit a great deal from as much additional bass damping as you could aesthetically handle. A gorgeous cloud system, an entire rear wall system."


At the end of the day it all comes down to measurements, and I would let them have the say in regards to placement. I would do front subs off of a channel, and rear subs (try to keep them close to same distance from lp) off the other channel. Delay to rear subs as needed then global eq.

Could you cut a shelf off the right of the desk and place computer there, or under desk beside right foot? Or I guess your next build could be a new desk.smile.gif Maybe you can take out that window and fit a couple subs up there.cool.gif I have been trying to get you to try a sub in that rear corner or a big bass trap back there for a long time. I think you should move the computer for a day or two of testing to see if a new desk or computer move would be worth it, and move on from there. Until measurements confirm, all possible orientations and placements are really just a guess.smile.gif

These are really coming along quick. Going to have that grin from ear to ear pretty soon it looks like!
post #57 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Do you think the 2 side placements I talked about are not enough? They are about 6 -7 feet from the back wall along the side wall slightly behind my main LP.

It may be just fine. It all depends on how much time you're going ot have.

You may start with all the subs positioned in your best case scenario idea, ... whatever that is. Measure, and see where that gets you. Perhaps as you (or someone) mentioned, an array lined up across the front as one group, and two in the rear flanking the LP (essentially under the side surrounds) as the second controllable group.

Or, if you had plenty of time, you may experiment with just two subs. Each sub representing one sub group, and just experiment away with the subsequent result. I've used the big furniture sliders with much luck performing these very tasks.

The cool benefit to spaced multiples (especially as many as eight eek.gif ), is the native response will very likely possess a smoothness over over that of a single or duals. I'd first approach it with some time/signal alignment aligning the two sources, assuring a positive acoustic summation, then EQ globally as a group. Then, whatever method you already prefer for blending with your mains and your all set.

After all is set, you can fine tune the final response by small adjustments in both time alignment/delay, and also some adjustment of low-pass filtering of of each group. It's interesting how each adjustable parameter interacts with the final response somewhat differently. You can establish a max acoustic summation baseline, and then experiment. EQ globally, time align individually.

All this depends on what tools you'll be using, and how much manipulation is nessesary.



Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I don't want to put a sub in the back corner because the magnet will be so close to the computer.

Wow, I don't know about that. But I can't imagine a static magnetic field, even a cabinet's distance away from a hard drive could do anay damage. Hard drives, and the magnetic data therein, are a lot more robust than many of us give them credit for. By design, they're really well protected from stray magnetic fields. Typically the environments they're used in are heavily laden with stray fields from varying sources. Hell, both the motor spinning the assembly generates a magnetic field, the stylus arm head, for writing and reading, generates a strong magnetic field.

I wouldn't think it could be an issue because of the inverse/square law diminishes the strength of the permanent motor magnet so much, relative to the powerful head assembly neo magnets right near the platters.


Have fun with the project ... love those flat packs
post #58 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I don't want to put a sub in the back corner because the magnet will be so close to the computer.
Anyone watch Breaking Bad? I just got a vision of Carp firing up the subs and every piece of metal in his house flying to the floor of the room above his basement.
post #59 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

At the end of the day it all comes down to measurements, and I would let them have the say in regards to placement. I would do front subs off of a channel, and rear subs (try to keep them close to same distance from lp) off the other channel. Delay to rear subs as needed then global eq.

Could you cut a shelf off the right of the desk and place computer there, or under desk beside right foot? Or I guess your next build could be a new desk.smile.gif Maybe you can take out that window and fit a couple subs up there.cool.gif I have been trying to get you to try a sub in that rear corner or a big bass trap back there for a long time. I think you should move the computer for a day or two of testing to see if a new desk or computer move would be worth it, and move on from there. Until measurements confirm, all possible orientations and placements are really just a guess.smile.gif

These are really coming along quick. Going to have that grin from ear to ear pretty soon it looks like!

Ha, yeah building a desk may be out of my range right now - but that does get me thinking that surely I can find a desk that would take up less room so I could more easily fit a sub back there.

If you have any interest in seeing how the flat packs go together feel free to come over and check them out, you can also listen to the sub I have done. I plan on putting together 2 more boxes tonight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

It may be just fine. It all depends on how much time you're going ot have.

You may start with all the subs positioned in your best case scenario idea, ... whatever that is. Measure, and see where that gets you. Perhaps as you (or someone) mentioned, an array lined up across the front as one group, and two in the rear flanking the LP (essentially under the side surrounds) as the second controllable group.

Or, if you had plenty of time, you may experiment with just two subs. Each sub representing one sub group, and just experiment away with the subsequent result. I've used the big furniture sliders with much luck performing these very tasks.

The cool benefit to spaced multiples (especially as many as eight eek.gif ), is the native response will very likely possess a smoothness over over that of a single or duals. I'd first approach it with some time/signal alignment aligning the two sources, assuring a positive acoustic summation, then EQ globally as a group. Then, whatever method you already prefer for blending with your mains and your all set.

After all is set, you can fine tune the final response by small adjustments in both time alignment/delay, and also some adjustment of low-pass filtering of of each group. It's interesting how each adjustable parameter interacts with the final response somewhat differently. You can establish a max acoustic summation baseline, and then experiment. EQ globally, time align individually.

All this depends on what tools you'll be using, and how much manipulation is nessesary.
Wow, I don't know about that. But I can't imagine a static magnetic field, even a cabinet's distance away from a hard drive could do anay damage. Hard drives, and the magnetic data therein, are a lot more robust than many of us give them credit for. By design, they're really well protected from stray magnetic fields. Typically the environments they're used in are heavily laden with stray fields from varying sources. Hell, both the motor spinning the assembly generates a magnetic field, the stylus arm head, for writing and reading, generates a strong magnetic field.

I wouldn't think it could be an issue because of the inverse/square law diminishes the strength of the permanent motor magnet so much, relative to the powerful head assembly neo magnets right near the platters.


Have fun with the project ... love those flat packs

Thanks again for the advice. I'm very glad I decided to make a build thread, I wasn't going to at first. Now that I have it will be nice to have all this info to refer to as I'm experimenting with sub placement. I have plenty of time to play with location so I'll try everything possible before settling on a final placement.



This may sound nuts, but I'm a bit concerned that if I spread them out too much I'll lose too much of the ridiculous head room that I am after. My thinking is that 2 of these SI subs co-located will have slightly more output than a single submersive. I've had dual Submersives, one in each front corner so having 4 SI's or 2 stacked in each front corner gives me just a bit more than what I had. I wanted the headroom of having quad Submersives which is what 8 up front of 4 in each corner would be. However, if I do that I won't have smoothed out the response. You can see what I am getting at here. I may need more subs. I'll need the 4 in each front corner plus at least 2 more to smooth things out.

Now, of course I'm going to find out what I have before doing that, I may find that I have the crazy headroom I want with the subs spread out over the room - one thing is for sure I can't wait to find out!! smile.gif
post #60 of 790
Carp - Get them hooked up and do some experimenting. If you find that you want more output, they will for sure take a bit more power than a single CV5000 spread across the 8 subs. smile.gif You can add more subs and/or power to satisfy your power craving. I think you will like what you hear though. biggrin.gif Does anyone around you have a second CV5000, Crown, or a Clone amp you could borrow to simulate an unlimited power scenario?

Also - If you've got a concrete floor like me I can tell you that the nearfield subs make a HUGE difference in tactile response.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Speakers and Subs
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › First build - Octo SI 18's with flat packs.