or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › First build - Octo SI 18's with flat packs.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

First build - Octo SI 18's with flat packs. - Page 13

post #361 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Maybe you just need a more powerful amp to give you that extra headroom? I never ran that much boost in my room with the subs hot so I don't know what would happen. I do know that boosting that high has it's limits for sure. What is the sensitivity at 10hz with your system? How loud are you trying to play at 10hz? This will let you know how much power is needed to do so. I say if it sounds good to you without a perfect flat response and you are not clipping at the levels you want then just leave it.

I thought about the clone amp but I'm just too nervous to go that route. If no one has called dibs if you decide to sell your new one someday then I'm calling it right now. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

carp, before you get too crazy with things, we need to loopback your receiver again since we apparently didn't save it last time. From what I recall it wasn't great (relative to my cheap Onkyo at least) and I think we need to know if that's the case.

Yeah, that low amount of boosting was crazy for sure. I'm not concerned about dropping off below 10 but to be dropping off a lot below 20 without crazy boost kind of sucks.
post #362 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post



Another reason I don't think clipping is the issue is that I was still using the minidsp LT for that blue curve above when I went nuts on Bass I Love you and no clipping on the amp at all.

You can still clip the signal without clipping the amplifier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Good ideas Scott.

I did do bass heavy scenes, not just bass I love you. The beach scene from x-men has crazy low stuff and was the only scene that has ever made my Submersive make a bad sound and that's what I was mostly testing with tonight along with Iron Man 2, Underworld scenes etc.

Scott, play Bass I Love you at 15+ hot at reference and it's no more yawning!! biggrin.gif

Yep, the next step is trying subs on the side wall again. I just have to get help getting the top sub down. I suppose I could do it myself, it would be easier than stacking it was but that makes me nervous.

Lol, okay. I'll take your word for it cuz I don't think I can do that kind of output..... for now. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I bet when I move 4 of the subs to the back half of the room it will be flatter and I'll be good to go. I plan on doing that today.

Agreed. I think maybe keeping 4-6 up front and 2-4 in back will help out but maybe just wait til you get a second amplifier to make hookup and EQ much easier and effective. Sooo you're not too far off, I think. When you can, pick up a second amplifier and maybe try some other placement and that should do it! smile.gif
post #363 of 790
Carp - You have D4's right? If so if you went with a clone you would want the FP10000Q (4 channel in 4 ohm) as they are not 2 ohm stable. cool.gif
post #364 of 790
15 dBs hot on what? MV or LFE? What response were you using? If the response was the 12 dBs hot one then someone with a flat response and 10 dBs hot would be louder. This is why Bosso used to get on me when comparing because it is hard to compare with so many different variables and why GTG's are what they are, without proper EQ'd response of each comparing is hard to do(apples to apples). I have played Bass I love you(Madaeel made me do it) and I think we were hitting about 120 dBs on my RS meter at the LP uncorrected. I was running the subs response flat and the LFE trim hot, maybe 10-12 dBs. MV as always set to reference. I first ran it like I watch movies and Adam asked me to turn it up because the drivers were not even moving(making that video). The system was at reference and the LFE set to 5 dBs hot. I just turned the LFE up until I saw about -4 dBs on the clone amp and Adam yelled "Ok, that is good" So I really don't know what it ended up being, probably close to 130 dBs at 10hz.
post #365 of 790
Thread Starter 
For comparison here is an old graph of dual Submersives stacked in the right front corner of the room with no eq.



Same crappy drop off below 20hz.
post #366 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

15 dBs hot on what? MV or LFE? What response were you using? If the response was the 12 dBs hot one then someone with a flat response and 10 dBs hot would be louder. This is why Bosso used to get on me when comparing because it is hard to compare with so many different variables and why GTG's are what they are, without proper EQ'd response of each comparing is hard to do(apples to apples). I have played Bass I love you(Madaeel made me do it) and I think we were hitting about 120 dBs on my RS meter at the LP uncorrected. I was running the subs response flat and the LFE trim hot, maybe 10-12 dBs. MV as always set to reference. I first ran it like I watch movies and Adam asked me to turn it up because the drivers were not even moving(making that video). The system was at reference and the LFE set to 5 dBs hot. I just turned the LFE up until I saw about -4 dBs on the clone amp and Adam yelled "Ok, that is good" So I really don't know what it ended up being, probably close to 130 dBs at 10hz.

Both were master volume at reference 15dbs hot BUT it was relative to their individual responses.

What I mean is, I recalibrated the subs flat to the speakers again when I took away the 14.5 db drag down and other boosts/cuts (blue line).

With the blue line no clip, with the black line clip. It makes sense of course, the black line was double boosted down low and a huge peak brought down to get it flat.
post #367 of 790
Carp get that second cv 5000. Rewire for 4 ohms per channel. That will give you 900 watts per driver.instead of 625. Then u should b fine. You'll have the headroom. Either way u want to eq. And no more tripping the breaker. I got 2 of them.amps and I love them. I' used one per captivator. Best so far.Anyways sounds like your close to what u want. Congrats on a fine system u got there:cool:
post #368 of 790
I think what we've found is that you like (as many do) the 30hz and 60hz areas of the bass octaves more than the super low stuff. This gives you the impact or "slam" that people always talk about.

You should have just built two or three big ported boxes. smile.gif

If, on the other hand, you just like exaggerated bass above other content, like Mk is saying, and not actually a peaky response, you still should have gone ported - more bang for your buck!

Nice looking system, though. smile.gif Congrats on your build!

Edit: flat DOES take some getting used to, but it's a very seamless transition once you get used to it. Instead of being wowed by the bass, you get a more immersive experience overall. That's the point, from an entertainment standpoint, I think.
post #369 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Both were master volume at reference 15dbs hot BUT it was relative to their individual responses.

What I mean is, I recalibrated the subs flat to the speakers again when I took away the 14.5 db drag down and other boosts/cuts (blue line).

With the blue line no clip, with the black line clip. It makes sense of course, the black line was double boosted down low and a huge peak brought down to get it flat.

Sorry you won't be getting any sympathy from me at 15db above reference hitting the clip lights with a heavily eq'd response! wink.gif It seems legit to me. cool.gif
post #370 of 790
"Carp get that second cv 5000. Rewire for 4 ohms per channel. That will give you 900 watts per driver.instead of 625. Then u should b fine. You'll have the headroom. Either way u want to eq. And no more tripping the breaker."

a couple great points. something to note is that most amps don't hit their highest power specs or they don't hit it for very long, particularly with very low frequencies. so a second amp will not only provide more power according to spec, but having a second power supply and all the additional capacitor storage means it is much more likely that you will actually get what you think you are getting. not saying you need it though.
post #371 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

I think what we've found is that you like (as many do) the 30hz and 60hz areas of the bass octaves more than the super low stuff. This gives you the impact or "slam" that people always talk about.

+1

You'd be surprised how many times i've demo'd my system (flat) and get an underwhelmed response. I then go ahead and disable the SMS-1, which in my room gives me a huge 13db bump from around 25hz to 55hz, and then people's reactions COMPLETELY change.
post #372 of 790
No kidding. 13dB is A LOT! tongue.gif
post #373 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

No kidding. 13dB is A LOT! tongue.gif
LOL! biggrin.gif

My point is that some people just prefer a nice chest hitting mid-bass bump!tongue.gif
post #374 of 790
Lulz. I was looking through the thread previews and here is what showed. "My point is that some people just prefer a nice chest". I was wondering what the heck I had missed. biggrin.gif
post #375 of 790
HAHA! Awesome!
post #376 of 790
Some of you guys telling carp to put more power to the drivers don't know carp that well. tongue.gif Carp will just keep inching the bass levels up until he fries voice coils if he has too much power on tap. A couple of us here (MrSmithers, Luke Kamp, Myself) ---- local friends, who know carp reasonably well - have suggested the amp setup he has now because he is amp matched or possibly a bit amp limited rather than driver limited). wink.gif

Nick from SI has said/stressed/warned in multiple threads, on multiple forums that the SI drivers' thermal power handling is 600 watts. Carp is currently giving the drivers 625 watts. Clear and simple. Nick and team designed the driver, Nick and team know what it's power handling is, and they have advised not to exceed that threshold. One of the guys here blew up an SI driver on a Dayton SA 1000 watt amp, and in personal testing I found them to be weaker than an Inuke amp which some of the folk on here dismiss as a weak amp. Those Dayton amps aren't even putting out 1000 watts. The driver has 2.5" voice coils. That's on the smaller side. The SI 18" drivers are inexpensive, yet capable drivers, but they do have limits. If carp starts putting 900 watts per driver to these SI drivers he's going to fry voice coils. I'd hate to see the post in a couple weeks show up that says.

'this sucks - I just fried all my drivers - I'm selling the boxes and throwing the drivers away and buying four submersives'ves'

Back to reality, as Luke said - - -
carp is saying he first encounters clipping at well above reference (15dB), and his response is flat to 9hz. The amount of people in the US who have this level of bass in their home you can probably count on one hand.

Adding more power to the equation adds risk, without a lot of gain. 600 to 900 watts exceeds rated power handling by 50%, for a 1.5 dB gain on the first sub, and less as you spread that wattage over the whole system.

As I was reading this thread last night, and again this afternoon I just find myself shaking my head.

carp? About that intervention...
tongue.gif


Sorry to be a kill joy. I just don't want to see my friend blow up his gear and end up disappointed.
post #377 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Lulz. I was looking through the thread previews and here is what showed. "My point is that some people just prefer a nice chest". I was wondering what the heck I had missed. biggrin.gif

The bigger the better. I could see why people would be underwhelmed with flat there, and want big peaks.
post #378 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

If carp starts putting 900 watts per driver to these SI drivers he's going to fry voice coils. I'd hate to see the post in a couple weeks show up that says.

'this sucks - I just fried all my drivers - I'm selling the boxes and throwing the drivers away and buying four submersives'ves'

No. He won't. That will not happen just because he plugs in an amplifer that outputs up to 900w instead of 625w. It's not as cut and dry as that.
post #379 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

No. He won't. That will not happen just because he plugs in an amplifer that outputs up to 900w instead of 625w. It's not as cut and dry as that.

Agreed.

And there's a big difference between 900 watts of dynamic peaks and a solid non stop music program.

That being said; I still think he (and most of you) needs an intervention. smile.gif
post #380 of 790
Of course I realize that you can have more power on tap if you don't turn the dial to 11.

But carp doesn't do 'up to'

If it's "on tap" he'll inch up to the limits till he see's clip lights. biggrin.gif I probably would too, so I'm not attempting any kind of insult here.

How long to the SI drivers handle 900 watts? Through 1 five star bass demo scene back to back? Through 5 demo scense back to back? Through 10? At what frequency is 900 watts not too much for a hour demo session? get my drift?

Luke and I talked on the phone today, and he made a good point. At this junction - carp could double his drivers to 16 and double his amplifier power and still only get about 6dB more in total. At some point you gotta draw the line?


alright - I think I've made my thoughts as clear as I need to - back to the shadows...
Edited by Archaea - 3/22/13 at 2:05pm
post #381 of 790
Thread Starter 
Ok, so 4 subs in the front corners 4 in the back half of the room (2 under each side surround).




Both are no eq. Looks like I don't lose any low end but don't gain any either. I played with the distance settings a lot, and this is the best I could come up with.

The sound is phenomenal by the way. smile.gif

Oh, and I realized after more listening today what I really want is the same headroom I have in the 30's and up but with more low end at the same time without clipping. Haha, don't we all.
post #382 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

How long to the SI drivers handle 900 watts? Through 1 five star bass demo scene back to back? Through 5 demo scense back to back? Through 10? At what frequency is 900 watts not too much for a hour demo session? get my drift?

Yes but he ain't doing pure sine waves. Could he do five star demos back to back with out issue? You betcha! This is dynamic content and the bulk of the current is in the 25hz and under area where most of the cooling is. N8Dogg killed one SI with a completely different amp playing some obnoxious dubstep track or whatever. Totally irrelevant to what Carp would put through doing 'demos'. He would be fine and probably better off with more power applied to the SI's than what he is now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Luke and I talked on the phone today, and he made a good point. At this junction - carp could double his drivers to 16 and double his amplifier power and still only get about 6dB more in total. At some point you gotta draw the line?


Agreed. I am also at this point and would not add more subwoofers for the effect of more output but maybe for modal smoothing as all my bass will be up front.
Edited by Scott Simonian - 3/22/13 at 2:16pm
post #383 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I just had 2 dedicated 20 amp lines put in a few weeks ago to make sure I would be good to go. Evidently that wasn't enough. Damn Damn Damn. I should have had them run 30 amp lines... I know they ran 12 gauge wire but it's not enough. Hmmmm well I guess I could get another amp so that I have one amp plugged into each dedicated line. Would that work for how I have my subs wired? I have D4's and currently running 4 drivers off of each channel of the amp in paralllel for a 2 ohm load.

So, 2 CV amps with 2 subs each per channel? Does that work?

Also, could the relay cause an issue? The rest of the night I was using the other dedicated 20 amp line which the receiver and all components share and didn't trip the breaker. I was still going nuts with the volume and flickered the clip light a couple more times and no breaker shut off.


The 20a breakers are fine, .. they'll pass enough current, believe me. For up to a second, the'll pass 7-8 times their rated trip amount! Up to 10 seconds, they can pass 3 times their amount. All the way to about 30 seconds, they can still pass twice their rated current. Point being, the circuit size isn't likely an issue, however the wire size can be prohibitive somewhat to solid current delivery. I recommend upsizing at least one trade size in the branch circuit wiring for high performance subwoofer circuits. If the distance of the run is more than up around 50 feet or more, I'd recommend upsizing merely for the distance as well.

An amp needs good stiff voltage supply. That means minimal voltage drop is the goal. Upsizing a dedicated branch circuit is a nice performance tweek. Upsize the circuit wire, assure everything is nice and tight,...including the contacts of the receptacle. It's all about low impedance current delivery, that maintains a stable voltage platform. Some amp designs tolerate fluctuations better than others. I'd only upgrade wire size if it was all accesible. Will it make a difference? Yes, if there's significant voltage drop. Would it be an audible improvement? Maybe, .. maybe not. It just an easy way to eliminate any possibility of current limiting.


The relay? I don't like the idea of a SSR in the path of a high power sub amp. I prefer a single pole switch, if control function is needed.

Here's a post from Notnyt's killer sub thread, regarding my perspective on relays on amp circuits.


Thanks
post #384 of 790
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the link FOH.

Wow, the subs do sound awesome guys. Here is the issue I think... this hobby is addictive and I think I wanted another "hit" like when I first got the Noesis. This upgrade is not at that level. It is the best bass I've had and the biggest leap in bass performance since I went from the cheapy SVS sub to a Captivator so I'm going to enjoy it. The bass just sounds so effortless - no matter how hard I push. Yes I've tickled the clip light a few times but even then it's very controlled and tight.

My ears are sore right now, so it's probably pretty stupid to want this much bass anyway - once things settle down I'll go back to rarely cranking it up unless I'm doing a demo or the once a week to once every 2 week movie nights with the wife (usually watch around 12 under with her so not too bad).

I am so sick of omnimic sweeps right now.
post #385 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Of course I realize that you can have more power on tap if you don't turn the dial to 11.

But carp doesn't do 'up to'

If it's "on tap" he'll inch up to the limits till he see's clip lights. biggrin.gif I probably would too, so I'm not attempting any kind of insult here.

How long to the SI drivers handle 900 watts? Through 1 five star bass demo scene back to back? Through 5 demo scense back to back? Through 10? At what frequency is 900 watts not too much for a hour demo session? get my drift?

Luke and I talked on the phone today, and he made a good point. At this junction - carp could double his drivers to 16 and double his amplifier power and still only get about 6dB more in total. At some point you gotta draw the line?


alright - I think I've made my thoughts as clear as I need to - back to the shadows...

No offense taken at any of your comments - but I'm sure you knew that already. You know how I get with the volume control.. and a drink in my hand.

I don't know if I would need 8 more to get 6 more db's down low. When I went from 4 subs in the front corner to 8 I saw an increase of 12 db's from 20hz to 10hz. So, all I need is 4 more!! biggrin.giftongue.gif Kidding, no way I'm doing that. This is crazy as is.
post #386 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

The relay? I don't like the idea of a SSR in the path of a high power sub amp. I prefer a single pole switch, if control function is needed.
The relay is this Omron with a snubber across the coil.
post #387 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


Luke and I talked on the phone today, and he made a good point. At this junction - carp could double his drivers to 16 and double his amplifier power and still only get about 6dB more in total. At some point you gotta draw the line?



eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
post #388 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Wow, the subs do sound awesome guys. Here is the issue I think... this hobby is addictive and I think I wanted another "hit" like when I first got the Noesis. This upgrade is not at that level. It is the best bass I've had ....

" eeeaarr ... you're up ..." take another hit cool.gif J/K


Once you've hit the point you want to stop, get back fully immersing yourself into the source material, films, music, enjoyment.

For additional gains (without changing speakers/gear), you could explore tightening up the decay times with some manner of bass damping. Subjectively, a nice level of improvement is availed to those seeking tighter decay times. The energy doesn't linger, thus each subsequent note launches from a "blacker" background. Tightening decay in the bass range, exposes more clearly the leading edge detail and clarity.

Great job thus far, good analogy with the Noesis upgrade. You've got a lot of system there ... no doubt.

Thanks for sharing all this.
post #389 of 790
Hey Archaea,
The reason for more power is because he is hitting the clips and not bottoming the drivers. So more power would give him the headroom needed to not clip but then coming close to over driving the subs. If he is running his subs that hot where he is that close either way the reliability of the system might be bad. Carp is better off turning it down and if he can not do that then I would rather run no EQ and be safe. Besides he likes the sound like that anyways so I would not bother About flat graphs or he needs more drivers with his levels for his room. I would wan the low end to come up most importantly or running ported would have been fine unless size was an issue.
post #390 of 790
mk, i think the concern is the thermal capabilities of the drivers.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Speakers and Subs
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › First build - Octo SI 18's with flat packs.