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First build - Octo SI 18's with flat packs. - Page 17

post #481 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

And how much did this packing service actually save over buying the replacement packing from us that I offered?

In short, you can't get boxes off the shelf which really are much use for stuff over 75-100 lbs unless you really beef things up internally. All of the boxes Jeff & I use are ordered custom at much heavier weight/strength. For any speakers over 50-75 lbs, most shipping companies and UPS/FedEx stores don't have a clue how to insure safe arrival, as the minimums won't cut it.

The tough part will be that as an individual, it's more hassle to file the claim vs. a company with an account. If Navis shipped it for you, they would have to make the claim. In this case be sure to have the receiver take pictures of the outside and inside of the packing.

*sigh*

I'm far too trusting I guess. Since Fedex referred them and even gave me their phone number and the Navis company manager/owner of that branch whatever reassured me that "this is all we do, we make sure packages arrive safely", and "I have expensive and very large paintings that have to be shipped to England this week, so don't worry your subwoofer will be fine."

So, yeah I saved money - quite a bit - but I was stupid in doing so, so if ever was a time for "I told you so" it's now.


What's really sad is I could have asked Doug Counsil for another box but I didn't want to do that again, it didn't feel right to ask him to do that a 2nd time.

frown.giffrown.giffrown.gif
post #482 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

It still stumps me why it didn't work in your room and why your subs sounded so bad is even more baffling. You know how my subs sound in my room and I really have never had any ill effects with Trinnov in regards to the bass.

I am another big time proponent of Trinnov, replaced a Onkyo 5508 and had a Marantz AV7005 and Denon 4311 before that and 972 trumps them all in my system. I even picked up a second 972 for the living room system that replaced a Onkyo 3008. As Bhazard already mentioned I think XT32 may be better musically but for movies and TV you are just enveloped with sound, it really is something I can't give up until there is another alternative besides the ADA $10K standalone Trinnov EQ.

Who knows bro?? I thought maybe it was the actual unit and/or mic, but i tried in a couple of other systems and it worked just fine. Oh well! So when we having our sub comparison??



SUCKS to hear about the SubM Carp. I've had to deal with that same problem 3 times. Luckily 2 of those times were through our shops account, so after a couple of not so nice calls they chose to cover it rather than loose a high dollar account. The 3rd time i used the UPS Pack & Ship service so they screwed themselves on that one. lol
post #483 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Great. What a nightmare. It doesn't help at all that Fedex referred me to the company that did the packaging? That's the last time I ship any gear.

This is precisely why I have kept every speaker and electronics box for everything I've ever purchased (except TV's because I use them until they're pretty much not worth anything). People always say "but I don't have any space" -- there's ALWAYS space if you get creative.

Navis looks to be a nationwide shipment preparation company that advertises on their website that they specialize in handling "fragile, large, awkward or valuable items"; they damn well better offer some sort of coverage guaranty when one of their clowns decides it's a good idea to throw a 150 pound subwoofer wrapped in bubblewrap into a box and expects it to survive a 1500 mile trip. rolleyes.gif

Looking at the pics, a partial settlement to cover the cosmetic damage is what I'm guessing will happen. I can't imagine that they'll pay out anywhere near 100% for a couple of dings and broken grille pegs.
post #484 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

1 listening spot at at time, up to 3 individual calibrations to switch between for different listening positions. Sounds like it would be a compromise, but it makes sense.

If you're off axis in a completely different spot without having a calibration for it, and actively set to it, it basically goes back to sounding like XT32 and loses the seamless effect where you cant localize the speakers.

Its pretty crazy. 7.1 Trinnov sounds more cohesive than when I did 11.1 with wides and heights. XT32 does a bit better EQ wise for music, but with movies it feels like you have speakers everywhere when Trinnov 3D remapping is running. There's nothing else like it. It just sucks that it is so expensive, and the only affordable version is in a niche receiver.

Never played with Trinnov. Any advantage to Trinnov, if speakers are already in their correct locations in a symmetrical room?
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post #485 of 790
I was worried about something like this when I shipped my SubM. I originally didn't want to ship just because of something happening like this.

The fact that Mark even offered to sell the packing materials for my sale and make some arrangements including warranty transfer shows the quality customer service that we miss out on when we go the DIY route. It did make another Seaton fan out of it aside from myself though, that are now forever hooked and just hoping for a large cash infusion to purchase the rest of his product line.

Hope things work out with a claim, sucks to hear.
post #486 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Never played with Trinnov. Any advantage to Trinnov, if speakers are already in their correct locations in a symmetrical room?

It probably works best in fixing awkward speaker arrangements. One of my surrounds is slightly higher than the other due to space, and Trinnov makes it sound level with the other. I also run a phantom center now, and you can't tell the center speaker is disconnected. Voices still come out of the screen, which is pretty jaw dropping the first time you notice it. Its not a projector screen either, its a 65" plasma tv with towers on the sides and the waveguides are barely 1/4th the way up the screen.

In a perfectly treated room, the effect might not be as noticeable, but it still has the effect of making the room one giant speaker. Its really hard to describe until you experience it yourself. The Book of Eli scene with the Gatling gun tearing up the house... you hear the bullets coming out of everywhere. It made me laugh at how much fun it was to sit in. The Si's really pound into it too, making it that much better.
post #487 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

it still has the effect of making the room one giant speaker......The Book of Eli scene with the Gatling gun tearing up the house... you hear the bullets coming out of everywhere.
HA! That's exactly the way me and Mike (MJaudio) described it after demoing that scene at his place.
post #488 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

It probably works best in fixing awkward speaker arrangements. One of my surrounds is slightly higher than the other due to space, and Trinnov makes it sound level with the other. I also run a phantom center now, and you can't tell the center speaker is disconnected. Voices still come out of the screen, which is pretty jaw dropping the first time you notice it. Its not a projector screen either, its a 65" plasma tv with towers on the sides and the waveguides are barely 1/4th the way up the screen.

In a perfectly treated room, the effect might not be as noticeable, but it still has the effect of making the room one giant speaker. Its really hard to describe until you experience it yourself. The Book of Eli scene with the Gatling gun tearing up the house... you hear the bullets coming out of everywhere. It made me laugh at how much fun it was to sit in. The Si's really pound into it too, making it that much better.

I have been motoring 1saleaday for several weeks watching for them to come back and now you let the cat out of the bag. smile.gif I am willing to try one for $299, but not for $599.
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Reply
post #489 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I was worried about something like this when I shipped my SubM. I originally didn't want to ship just because of something happening like this.

The fact that Mark even offered to sell the packing materials for my sale and make some arrangements including warranty transfer shows the quality customer service that we miss out on when we go the DIY route. It did make another Seaton fan out of it aside from myself though, that are now forever hooked and just hoping for a large cash infusion to purchase the rest of his product line.

Hope things work out with a claim, sucks to hear.


Agreed. I should have taken him up on it. I'm really good at beating myself up over doing stupid things and this time I really deserve it.


Check out Navis' claims:

http://www.gonavis.com/specialties#we-shipped-this


I feel sick to my stomach about this.
post #490 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I have been motoring 1saleaday for several weeks watching for them to come back and now you let the cat out of the bag. smile.gif I am willing to try one for $299, but not for $599.

$599 is a little much to put down without hearing it first, I would have been hesitant too. $299 was Onkyo 616 cost territory and was a no brainer. The amp inside it alone is worth that, nevermind Trinnov itself.

I'm hoping it does, but be quick. They had a second round of them a month later and they were gone within minutes. The rest of the stock is at that accesories4less site.

I'm kinda wondering what kind of magic it would do to those Noesis fronts. Why couldn't I just win that Powerball lottery so I could find out? lol
post #491 of 790
Carp,
This happened to me when I shipped Subwoofers. I actually used a UPS shipper that packed and shipped for me. They told me that since the receiver told the person who came out to investigate that they were packaged poorly that it was not covered by Insurance. I used shiprite and told them I don't care who said what because they said they would take care of everything. Well, I am still waiting for my money.
post #492 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I believe you (and Danley and Seaton and LTD, etc) said something like; "Small enough room, no more wave" and "... below which the room can no longer support a mode...". That would imply no more modes, eh? So, let's try to leave modes and boundaries out of this and focus on the reason for 10dB differences in this "no more wave" area by simply changing the # of subs and their placement.

Short and simple.
My explanation, each time you rephrase the question, remains the same. You even included it in your post.

Any such answer from me regarding Carps acoustic gain increases, must include both boundary influences, and modal behavior ... as they're inextricably linked IMO.


I appreciate your theory. But your position stating a room's transfer function (down deep) is independent of the dimensions and boundaries of the room ... I can't understand, but that's ok. You don't need to rephrase the question about Carp's room, I've answered as well as I can, I've got nothing else.

To further discuss this specific issue, without inclusion of boundaries is pointless to me. I realize it's not to you and that's ok, I'll follow along.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The explanation is awaited.

As I said, it's ok if you disagree about boundary interaction, but I have explained it.




Thanks
post #493 of 790
Wow, gutted to see and hear about the SubM debacle, Carp.

I had a carrier destroy a DT Trinity and I pretty much destroyed THEM until they reimbursed me in FULL. It was quite the ordeal documented somewhere here on AVS, lol.

Do not let up on these thieves...which is precisely what they are. They promised a service to you and failed miserably- by any reasonable standard. Now this? I'm sorry, but, no.

They have both a moral and legal (and don't let ANYONE tell you any differently with any claim/insurance manure) onus to make you whole. I can promise you that this outcome will depend wholly on your vigilance and perseverance. I am 100% confident you will emerge from this in good shape if you keep the aforementioned in mind.

Good luck.

James
post #494 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Carp,
This happened to me when I shipped Subwoofers. I actually used a UPS shipper that packed and shipped for me. They told me that since the receiver told the person who came out to investigate that they were packaged poorly that it was not covered by Insurance. I used shiprite and told them I don't care who said what because they said they would take care of everything. Well, I am still waiting for my money.

This is a travesty as well, I'm sorry to learn of it. People can moan about the "business" of attorneys all they care to, but instances precisely like these are why (even the WARNING of, hint, hint wink.gif ) just litigation exists.

James
post #495 of 790
I agree 100%.
post #496 of 790
Thread Starter 
Who do you guys think I have a better chance with, the packaging company (which is a national company) or Fedex?
post #497 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Who do you guys think I have a better chance with, the packaging company (which is a national company) or Fedex?

I'd think Fed Ex. The packaging company will just point the finger and say they were properly packaged and Fedex was overly rough and damaged them (which is most likely the case). I think you have a good leg to stand on if Fed Ex specifically referred you to this company.

I've battled many shipping issues over the years, and I can tell you; it's a very, very frustrating experience. Might go pick up some lotion to have on hand.
post #498 of 790
Fedex is going to blame the packaging company while the packaging company is going to blame Fedex. I don't believe you have a chance with the packaging company unless you got insuance or a hand written guarantee. Fedex is going to put you through it hoping you will cave.
Since you took out insurance with Fedex file a claim. Next go to a local lawyer have him make a call followed with a letter stating the legal facts for your state. Should cost another $100 bucks but if you have a legal case it will work. Fedex & UPS have some shadey contracts that pretty much give them the right to strong-arm customers. The lawyer will let you know where you stand.
If you are persistant and can talk to someone face to face you may prevail. If you can only do this over the phone then the lawyer will be needed.
Good luck
Chris W
post #499 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post

This is precisely why I have kept every speaker and electronics box for everything I've ever purchased (except TV's because I use them until they're pretty much not worth anything). People always say "but I don't have any space" -- there's ALWAYS space if you get creative.

Navis looks to be a nationwide shipment preparation company that advertises on their website that they specialize in handling "fragile, large, awkward or valuable items"; they damn well better offer some sort of coverage guaranty when one of their clowns decides it's a good idea to throw a 150 pound subwoofer wrapped in bubblewrap into a box and expects it to survive a 1500 mile trip. rolleyes.gif

Looking at the pics, a partial settlement to cover the cosmetic damage is what I'm guessing will happen. I can't imagine that they'll pay out anywhere near 100% for a couple of dings and broken grille pegs.

+1

My box closet/furnace room:



A significant reorganization is in order to allow room for the SI boxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Agreed. I should have taken him up on it. I'm really good at beating myself up over doing stupid things and this time I really deserve it.


Check out Navis' claims:

http://www.gonavis.com/specialties#we-shipped-this


I feel sick to my stomach about this.

On 3 everybody start bombarding the site with bad reviews. It's an independently owned franchise from what I gather... A score of negative reviews WILL make an impact.

But seriously, fedex has published guidelines for proper packing.. If they won't reimburse you because improper packing and the company will not reimburse you for damages, I'll jump on the sh!tty review bandwagon....

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Who do you guys think I have a better chance with, the packaging company (which is a national company) or Fedex?

Any circumstance when you can take out a middle man is optimal. In some cases, as seems to be the case with Fedex in your situation, they might not be able to accomodate.
post #500 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Who do you guys think I have a better chance with, the packaging company (which is a national company) or Fedex?

I've used Navis to ship Ravens overseas (200# each), and they arrived in tip top shape. IMO, whomever you use, you have to go over the actual packaging with them to be sure you know what they intend to do and agree that whatever the plan is is adequate. "Trust us" ain't gonna get it.

Sucks you trusted incompetents, but if you had discussed the packaging details and were OK with the plan and it still got damaged, it would be a bit less bitter pill.
post #501 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Short and simple.
My explanation, each time you rephrase the question, remains the same. You even included it in your post.

Any such answer from me regarding Carps acoustic gain increases, must include both boundary influences, and modal behavior ... as they're inextricably linked IMO.


I appreciate your theory. But your position stating a room's transfer function (down deep) is independent of the dimensions and boundaries of the room ... I can't understand, but that's ok. You don't need to rephrase the question about Carp's room, I've answered as well as I can, I've got nothing else.

To further discuss this specific issue, without inclusion of boundaries is pointless to me. I realize it's not to you and that's ok, I'll follow along.
As I said, it's ok if you disagree about boundary interaction, but I have explained it.




Thanks

Gotcha. I misunderstood you to have explained that below the modal region meant no more modes. So, your answer makes no sense to me, thus my continued re-phrasing to see what I was missing.
post #502 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

First, here's the stock AVR rumble tone for calibration:



Basically, if you use the RS meter, you can forget below 50 Hz because the meter is 'C' weighted, so 20 Hz is down too low through the meter to have any appreciable effect on the dBSPL you use to set the level.

If I use that tone and meter and set the SW level to 75dB, my subs are +4dB hot, (+/-) 1dB.

Run a full range sweep and level the subs that way... much more accurate. If you do try it that way, LMK the details, if you get the time.

Sure it's fair to compare. If the 2 systems were calibrated to the same level, they should sound the same. If they don't because 1 system gave more or better placement options, headroom or whatever, then that system wins, for those reasons. That's always the way I looked at it and why I went multiples back when. Best FR, which is everything, and as you commented on and I've always agreed with, too much pull down EQ ruins the SQ, so best FR without smoothing EQ wins, IMO.


Bosso, I got around to checking how level matched I am using 1/3rd octave smoothing. Yep, your right I'm not flat. Looks like I'm around 5db hot.




This is with receiver test tones and the omnimic to level match. Later this week I'll try the same using the Avia disk and the WOW disk.

So, that means that MCACC auto calibration ends up at 9 db hot since it's 4 db hotter than when I use test tones and Omnimic. Wow.
post #503 of 790
This would explain why reference MV on my old pioneer sounded so damn loud.
post #504 of 790
Thread Starter 
Oops, just remembered I was experimenting with the mbm-12 and it was on for that sweep. It doesn't change the fact that the bass is hot though because nothing would change below 50hz since the mbm won't play below 50hz. That could explain the hump centered at 70hz that wasn't there the other day when the mbm-12 was off.
post #505 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Who do you guys think I have a better chance with, the packaging company (which is a national company) or Fedex?

You would likely have a better chance with the packaging company. They agree to a service, the service was not good. It's their fault if it didn't meet the FedEx requirement.
post #506 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Bosso, I got around to checking how level matched I am using 1/3rd octave smoothing. Yep, your right I'm not flat. Looks like I'm around 5db hot.




This is with receiver test tones and the omnimic to level match. Later this week I'll try the same using the Avia disk and the WOW disk.

So, that means that MCACC auto calibration ends up at 9 db hot since it's 4 db hotter than when I use test tones and Omnimic. Wow.

That's a pretty darned good looking sweep, IMO.

I really haven't kept up with the OM system. How is the sweep generated? Is it in a PC which is cabled to your AVR? If so, how is the AVR set up? Is is stereo with bass redirected to the subs with the same crossover you use for HT?

What I'm getting at is you may be pretty much perfectly flat if your stereo setup is sending the same bass from L and R to the SW out.
post #507 of 790
the OM is connected to a PC and uses a MIC to capture the responce from a test tone CD you play through the system
post #508 of 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

That's a pretty darned good looking sweep, IMO.

I really haven't kept up with the OM system. How is the sweep generated? Is it in a PC which is cabled to your AVR? If so, how is the AVR set up? Is is stereo with bass redirected to the subs with the same crossover you use for HT?

What I'm getting at is you may be pretty much perfectly flat if your stereo setup is sending the same bass from L and R to the SW out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

the OM is connected to a PC and uses a MIC to capture the responce from a test tone CD you play through the system

I don't even use a CD. I have a computer or laptop hooked up to the AVR via HDMI and play back the appropriate file.
post #509 of 790
Thread Starter 
Right, me too Scott. I have the omnimic disk saved as a playlist on Winamp and Itunes.

I listen to all my music from my computer and usually use my ipad with the splashtop 2 app which shows my computer screen on my ipad and a remote mouse and remote keyboard it's really nice. Either that or just have the projector on and control the computer while watching the display on the big screen.
post #510 of 790
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

That's a pretty darned good looking sweep, IMO.

I really haven't kept up with the OM system. How is the sweep generated? Is it in a PC which is cabled to your AVR? If so, how is the AVR set up? Is is stereo with bass redirected to the subs with the same crossover you use for HT?

What I'm getting at is you may be pretty much perfectly flat if your stereo setup is sending the same bass from L and R to the SW out.

Yes, my crossover on my receiver is the same as it is for movies and for the tones I use the stereo setting on my receiver.

So that means I'm not hot then? If so, very cool! smile.gif
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