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First build - Octo SI 18's with flat packs. - Page 21

post #601 of 816
Here's my DAC's loopback.


This then goes into my UMC-1 which totally distorts and kills anything below 5hz; hence why I want to get it out of my music-mode signal path by replacing it with an XSP-1.
post #602 of 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Here's my DAC's loopback.


This then goes into my UMC-1 which totally distorts and kills anything below 5hz; hence why I want to get it out of my music-mode signal path by replacing it with an XSP-1.

Thought you ordered and posted delivery date on the XSP-1 before you bought the ultras?
post #603 of 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Hi Carp,

Since I had some of your previously posted FR graphs and L/T info, I thought I'd LYK that you have the same room gain profile all of us (who have posted enough data to extrapolate) have.

Here's a composite with:
a) The measured naked response, give or take a small enough variance.
b) The L/T you described earlier applied to the naked response, give or take some small data points.
c) The AVR roll off.
d) The amp roll off, from manny's spec. (Side note: The amp folks don't cheat like Ilkka, Seaton, Chase, et al. (+/-) 3dB is + (above 0) or minus (below 0) 3dB, not +0/-6dB)
e) The cumulative roll off (less the Mini).
f) The result @ the LP.



Your Room Gain starts at 30 Hz and is approximately +6dB/Octave. That's the same room gain profile, (+/-) 2dB, as My room, Ricci's, MKT's, etc., etc.

My advice: Lose the AVR. wink.gif You have quite a bit invested in a tweakable full BW subwoofer system with headroom to cover it all. Too much to let it be compromised by a non-SW-friendly AVR. smile.gif

Since I only use my HT for MC music and movies and I use tweaks instead of smoothing EQ, I decided to try the new Oppo flagship as a preamp/player and shelf the AVR altogether. My L/T is flat to 2 Hz and the clone-type amps are flat to 3 Hz. That leaves only the roll off of the Oppo. That's not to mention the possibly SQ jump with Oppo's ESS Sabre reference DACs and the playback choices; SACD, DVD-A, etc., etc.

Here's what your result might look like if you opted for such a change:



I've been sayin' it for a long time; signal chain is the culprit that's always mistaken for "my room has lousy room gain".

I'll post back when I get the time. We did measurements of the mains and subs, close mic and at the LP as well as zoomed SpecLab caps with music and movies of the existing signal chain vs the one I just described. Interesting stuff...

Bosso

Are you using the oppo 95 or 105. I noticed they both had digital volume control? If eliminating an avr in a setup like this with an oppo I guess even all of your surrounds are powered by amps? The oppo's 2nd hdmi port would really help a setup like this if one didnt need anything other than cable/sat and BD player for the room. Guessing from a gaming standpoint that would be the only popular downside;although, I find competitive gaming to be nearly impossible on larger screens anyway. I use a dedicated 19 inch for COD lol.

Carp,

How do you test just the AVR roll off? My close mic measurements show a curve that rolls off anyway so how to determine which is actual driver/enclosure natural roll off vs what the AVR is doing? Ill gladly measure the denon 4311 to start with such comparisons. Seems like something we as a group need to know. We've been focusing so much on amp roll off and disregarding AVRs for the most part being that you were the first person to bring this up in the threads I've been following. I know other sources play a part but haven't seen topics where others have mentioned AVRs adding to it when obviously some do.
post #604 of 816
he said flagship, so im thinking its the 105. i wonder if the 103 is just as good as far as roll off?

also. Bosso. does the oppo allow you to control the channel levels?
post #605 of 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Bosso

Are you using the oppo 95 or 105. I noticed they both had digital volume control? If eliminating an avr in a setup like this with an oppo I guess even all of your surrounds are powered by amps? The oppo's 2nd hdmi port would really help a setup like this if one didnt need anything other than cable/sat and BD player for the room. Guessing from a gaming standpoint that would be the only popular downside;although, I find competitive gaming to be nearly impossible on larger screens anyway. I use a dedicated 19 inch for COD lol.

Carp,

How do you test just the AVR roll off? My close mic measurements show a curve that rolls off anyway so how to determine which is actual driver/enclosure natural roll off vs what the AVR is doing? Ill gladly measure the denon 4311 to start with such comparisons. Seems like something we as a group need to know. We've been focusing so much on amp roll off and disregarding AVRs for the most part being that you were the first person to bring this up in the threads I've been following. I know other sources play a part but haven't seen topics where others have mentioned AVRs adding to it when obviously some do.

I think what you do is a loopback test to calibrate your soundcard in REW,

Once the sound card's curve is measured, then do another loopback with the receiver in the loop in direct mode.

I'm not sure the easiest way to do this. Use the sound cards HDMI out to receivers HDMI in, and then sub out back to the soundcard line-in I guess.

Then see if you can overlay the soundcard curve with the amp curve and compare the difference, OR, use the soundcard correction curve when doing the measurement of the receiver.
post #606 of 816
Great idea but I would require a real AVR in my HT life. Gotta have them inputs and outputs and I definitely need me some audio processing besides plain-jane Dolby and DTS decoders.
post #607 of 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

he said flagship, so im thinking its the 105. i wonder if the 103 is just as good as far as roll off?

also. Bosso. does the oppo allow you to control the channel levels?

You need the 105 if you are wanting to use it as a preamp.
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post #608 of 816
Does it has channel level controls?
post #609 of 816
Yes, the 105 (flagship).

The 105 has channel trim (although Oppo recommends a test tone disc for calibration as it doesn't have calibrated pink noise tones like an AVR) at -10dB through +10dB, distance (delay), crossover points (up to 250 Hz) and analog volume, variable or fixed.

It has far better DACs than any AVR near its price and, in my case, was cheaper than a good player (like the 103) and a mid-level AVR.

It decodes SACD, DVD-A and all movie formats and sends them to its 7.1 analog outs, in addition to its L/R balanced outs.

It outputs 2.1V through the RCA outs and 4.2V through its balanced L/R outs.

Yes, all of my sats have rackmount amps. I've never considered using a receivers amps (and neither should anyone else, IMHO).

Don't wanna jack Carp's awesome thread, so I'll post the data (and quotes from several musicians I asked to offer listening opinions) results in a separate thread, sooner or later.
post #610 of 816
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Hi Carp,

Since I had some of your previously posted FR graphs and L/T info, I thought I'd LYK that you have the same room gain profile all of us (who have posted enough data to extrapolate) have.

Here's a composite with:
a) The measured naked response, give or take a small enough variance.
b) The L/T you described earlier applied to the naked response, give or take some small data points.
c) The AVR roll off.
d) The amp roll off, from manny's spec. (Side note: The amp folks don't cheat like Ilkka, Seaton, Chase, et al. (+/-) 3dB is + (above 0) or minus (below 0) 3dB, not +0/-6dB)
e) The cumulative roll off (less the Mini).
f) The result @ the LP.



Your Room Gain starts at 30 Hz and is approximately +6dB/Octave. That's the same room gain profile, (+/-) 2dB, as My room, Ricci's, MKT's, etc., etc.

My advice: Lose the AVR. wink.gif You have quite a bit invested in a tweakable full BW subwoofer system with headroom to cover it all. Too much to let it be compromised by a non-SW-friendly AVR. smile.gif

Since I only use my HT for MC music and movies and I use tweaks instead of smoothing EQ, I decided to try the new Oppo flagship as a preamp/player and shelf the AVR altogether. My L/T is flat to 2 Hz and the clone-type amps are flat to 3 Hz. That leaves only the roll off of the Oppo. That's not to mention the possibly SQ jump with Oppo's ESS Sabre reference DACs and the playback choices; SACD, DVD-A, etc., etc.

Here's what your result might look like if you opted for such a change:



I've been sayin' it for a long time; signal chain is the culprit that's always mistaken for "my room has lousy room gain".

I'll post back when I get the time. We did measurements of the mains and subs, close mic and at the LP as well as zoomed SpecLab caps with music and movies of the existing signal chain vs the one I just described. Interesting stuff...

Thanks a ton for the info Bosso - very nice to see plainly what would happen if I ditch the Pioneer Elite. It looks like it would be worthwhile not only for the below 10hz content but below 20 hz the difference is significant - assuming the amps or receiver have much better roll offs.

I'm going to have to add that to the list of next possible upgrades:

  • false wall/AT screen
  • amp(s) for LRC speakers
  • new receiver or pre/pro with amps
  • acoustic treatments
  • JTR single 8 surrounds or 228's for surrounds
  • 2 more low end heavy subs so I can run way over reference to 10 hz and below because I am crazy.

Honestly I could stick with what I have for a long time though and be happy, it's awesome the way things are now. However, it's always fun to start planning for the next upgrade.
post #611 of 816
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post


Carp,

How do you test just the AVR roll off? My close mic measurements show a curve that rolls off anyway so how to determine which is actual driver/enclosure natural roll off vs what the AVR is doing? Ill gladly measure the denon 4311 to start with such comparisons. Seems like something we as a group need to know. We've been focusing so much on amp roll off and disregarding AVRs for the most part being that you were the first person to bring this up in the threads I've been following. I know other sources play a part but haven't seen topics where others have mentioned AVRs adding to it when obviously some do.

I don't know, mrsmithers did it for me a few months ago, he could tell you what you need to do - sorry I'm no help.
post #612 of 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Thought you ordered and posted delivery date on the XSP-1 before you bought the ultras?

I did, but I cancelled it to fund the Ultras.

I don't have enough money for both, and the Ultras were on sale and the XSP-1 was not.
post #613 of 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Luke I don't get what you are adding together. I see from my receiver roll off graph that I am down 8 db's at 5hz, where does the other 6 come from? From the claimed freq response of the amp? That shouldn't matter since we have the actual response which is 8db's down right?

Either way, yeah that's a lot to overcome. Ha, looks like I have yet another reason to start saving for a new receiver. I've never been a fan of Audyssey but I've never actually had it in my room so maybe I'll like it there. Also, it would be nice to have separate crossover setting options for the speakers as well as more options. Currently I have 50hz, 80hz, 150hz, and 200 hz as my crossover options and all 7 speakers have to be crossed over at the same frequency.

Luke I still want to get you over sometime to see how my room does with some more treatments if you don't mind, maybe this summer.

The miniDSP 10x10 would give you the flexibility to cross your speakers as different points... But if you are going to ditch the Elite, might as well get something that would be able to accommodate your needs in more of an all-in-one package (if that's feasible?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Thanks a ton for the info Bosso - very nice to see plainly what would happen if I ditch the Pioneer Elite. It looks like it would be worthwhile not only for the below 10hz content but below 20 hz the difference is significant - assuming the amps or receiver have much better roll offs.

I'm going to have to add that to the list of next possible upgrades:

  • false wall/AT screen
  • amp(s) for LRC speakers
  • new receiver or pre/pro with amps
  • acoustic treatments
  • JTR single 8 surrounds or 228's for surrounds
  • 2 more low end heavy subs so I can run way over reference to 10 hz and below because I am crazy.

Honestly I could stick with what I have for a long time though and be happy, it's awesome the way things are now. However, it's always fun to start planning for the next upgrade.

lol... More proof that this hobby never ends...
post #614 of 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Thanks a ton for the info Bosso - very nice to see plainly what would happen if I ditch the Pioneer Elite. It looks like it would be worthwhile not only for the below 10hz content but below 20 hz the difference is significant - assuming the amps or receiver have much better roll offs.

I'm going to have to add that to the list of next possible upgrades:

  • false wall/AT screen
  • amp(s) for LRC speakers
  • new receiver or pre/pro with amps
  • acoustic treatments
  • JTR single 8 surrounds or 228's for surrounds
  • 2 more low end heavy subs so I can run way over reference to 10 hz and below because I am crazy.

Honestly I could stick with what I have for a long time though and be happy, it's awesome the way things are now. However, it's always fun to start planning for the next upgrade.

My wish list audio wise is for my MiniDSP 10x10HD to finally ship. Ordered it over a week ago. Found out today, they have been waiting on some front panels. smile.gif Video wise it is a masking system for my curved AT screen and a new projector this fall.
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post #615 of 816
Thread Starter 
Do any of you guys watch Game of Thrones? If you do you know how incredible the picture quality and sound are but last night took it to another level.

The sword fight to the death was the best surround AND bass scene I have ever seen on a "tv" show, in fact it was right up there with some of the more impressive blu-ray scenes.

I could not believe this, but my wife had me pause it during it and she said she thought it was very cool how you could hear the swords going right at you/above you/ all around you and you could really feel it too. She has never said anything like this, she usually rolls her eyes when I point out something like that and she'd be just as happy watching on the tv upstairs. I think she's coming around!! biggrin.gif
post #616 of 816
i watch it carp but the audio on my HBO feed is 100% crap. clicks and pops and even low volumes, it has freaked me out in the past and made me thing i killed my speakers but i can play BRs at +15 with no issues besides my ears bleeding

its some issue with Time Warner. I get the pops and such downstairs as well on a TV that just has a soundbar hooked up to it.
post #617 of 816
Thread Starter 
You gotta get rid of Time Warner Sibuna, NFL Network and more importantly Red Zone are the best things to ever happen to me. smile.gif
post #618 of 816
i get red zone on time warner and TBH i dont really care about football
post #619 of 816
No football!? Awww man, i played my first fantasy league last year, and i enjoyed the hell out of it.. Cheering for random people off random teams and stuff.. Definitely makes it more interesting when you are trying to win the $$$

Made football alot more interesting for a Dolphins fan, for sure. We dont usually have much to cheer about. lol
post #620 of 816
yea ima soccer guy
post #621 of 816
Hey you know what they say.. Tomato/Tomahto (i dont really know anyone that says tomahto though). Football/Futball. To each his own
post #622 of 816
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Sh*t sh*t sh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mad.gif

The guy I sold the Submersive to contacted me today. He got it but it's really damaged bad. Evidently the packaging was horrible.

Here's how it went. I called Fedex to see what they would charge to do the packaging for the Submersive and they said they wouldn't do it for something that big and heavy and they referred me to a company called Navis - they gave me the phone number and everything. So, I contacted Navis and had them package the Submersive for me. Everything seemed fine, the box was close to the same size as the Submersive packaging and I assumed all was well since the owner assured me that this is what his company does and it will be fine. I didn't open up the package because it had those huge brass staple things. I brought it back to a fedex store and they asked me how much I wanted to insure for so I said 2299 and he asked what it was, I told him and he opened one side to look and and then added some tape.

The seller told me it was packed horrible, basically a bunch of bubble wrap and the corners were not well protected - as you can see.

So, anyone have an experience like this? How is this going to end?

Oh yeah, the Navis company didn't even ship the power cord or xlr/rca cord even thought I reminded them to do so and put the cords right on top of the sub.

Wow. This sucks.










Well, I'm VERY happy to report that this is over. I just got a text last night from the buyer saying that he got a check from Fedex to reimburse him for the cost of repairing the Submersive. So glad it's over and all taken care of. smile.gif HUGE thanks to Mark Seaton for helping us out through this nightmare.
post #623 of 816
thats awesome news Carp. i never come out on top when trying to get money out of FedEx or UPS
post #624 of 816
Thread Starter 
Well this is a first. The wife and I were watching Olympus has Fallen tonight. I had the master volume at -8 and the subs set to my preset on the minidsp that has a house curve. The overall bass was set to 8 db's hot, and with the house curve the low bass from 10hz to 25hz was around 16db's hot. For some movies this is too hot in the bass above say 40hz (boomy sound), but this movie I could tell I could crank the bass hot and it would still sound great.

Well, the scene where the Washington Monument crumbles cause the breaker to trip.

This is the first time that I've tripped the breaker during normal movie watching.

So, I assume I should look into the Peavey amp since it should be a lot more efficient? Could I power all 8 of my SI's with one - I have d4's. Currently I'm running all of them off of my CV 5000.

BTW, I thought the bass was awesome in this movie. Lots of bass you feel but isn't very loud to the ears. Love that. After the breaker tripped I turned the sub trim down to 2 hot which would mean the bass in the 10hz to 25hz would be 10 hot. I watched the Washington Monument scene again and it sounded perfect so I left the sub trim there the rest of the movie and was very impressed with the bass.

The movie itself was ridiculous, but I still enjoyed it.
post #625 of 816
if you are running your bass that hot, i wonder if you were sending a heavily clipped signal *into* your amplifier and as a result asking it to just produce big hits of dc instead of clean sine-wave like output.

a square wave for example has about 50% more current demand than an unclipped sine wave at the same level.
post #626 of 816
Yes! Yes you can use it. It's almost exactly as capable (if not more) than the CV5000 and is my 'go-to' amp if and/or when I decide to replace my CV5k.

I have a feeling that I might not have to. I think most of you guys get to watch stuff WAY louder than I get to. But I felt since we have the same subs, same config and same amp that I would chime in. smile.gif

That scene contains tons of 20hz content. Sealed subs, all EQ'd up and turned up loud WITH a house curve.... yeah, not shocked you tripped a breaker. tongue.gif What's the thought of upgrading that?
post #627 of 816
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

if you are running your bass that hot, i wonder if you were sending a heavily clipped signal *into* your amplifier and as a result asking it to just produce big hits of dc instead of clean sine-wave like output.

a square wave for example has about 50% more current demand than an unclipped sine wave.

My sub trim level on the avr is -10 when the subs are flat and no house curve. Tonight I had the sub trim level at -2 and the minidsp on the house curve.

I suppose the minidsp could be clipping too, huh?

I do have 2 clicks left on the CV amp, I assume I should turn them all the way up to try to avoid or minimize the clipped signal?
post #628 of 816
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yes! Yes you can use it. It's almost exactly as capable (if not more) than the CV5000 and is my 'go-to' amp if and/or when I decide to replace my CV5k.

I have a feeling that I might not have to. I think most of you guys get to watch stuff WAY louder than I get to. But I felt since we have the same subs, same config and same amp that I would chime in. smile.gif

That scene contains tons of 20hz content. Sealed subs, all EQ'd up and turned up loud WITH a house curve.... yeah, not shocked you tripped a breaker. tongue.gif What's the thought of upgrading that?

So I would wire it the exact same way with 4 subs per channel for a total 2 ohm load on the amp? (At least I think that's the ohm load if memory serves me right...)
post #629 of 816
Thread Starter 
Mrsmithers has the Peavey, at some point I'm going to try to get him to bring it over and compare the 2 amps - it's very nice that he lives a mile and a half away now. smile.gif
post #630 of 816
Thread Starter 
What's interesting is that I did a demo last night and I had the exact same volume settings and sub settings and showed the usual heavy hitters like WOTW, Flight of the Phoenix, Master and Commander, etc. and I did not trip the breaker.
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