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Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 57

post #1681 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTimeShifter View Post

I finally got my 65S64 set up yesterday. I noticed my set says the display is 1080i, then discovered my Comcast Motorola HD DVR / cable box only goes up to 1080i! Since I couldn't find any related thread here I'll ask here: does anyone with Comcast have a cable box that outputs 1080p? If so, I'm going to ask to swap my box out for a newer one. I previously just assumed it only went up to 1080i because my old TV was 1080i. In the meantime, it's a good excuse to hook up my antenna and see what kind of OTA reception I get and if I get 1080p through that
Broadcast (and cable) TV "HD" standards are: 720p & 1080i. That's it! The only standard source of 1080p (barring some streaming sites - which impose other limitations on quality) is Blu-ray.

Most all displays today are 1080p, not because that is "better", but because that is the way that those displays work internally. Really, the only displays that were interlaced in their operation were the old CRTs ("paint" all of the odd lines, then "paint" the even lines).
post #1682 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by xenon9887 View Post

This is simply the sound of the Power Board doing its thing in the guts of the television. If I am not mistaken a plasma television is in a basic sense very similar to a fluorescent tube. An electric charge is passed through some gas, which when charged emits UV light, and that UV light causes the phosphors in each pixel to emit visible light.

We all know how florescent tube's buzz, and the tv is no different. It won't go away but you shouldn't be able to hear it over any kind of audio, if you can then your ears are either very good or their might be something wrong with your set.
It is not the florescent tube that buzzes' but rather it was the windings in the ballast used with that light that would buzz. Today, most florescent light fixtures use solid state ballasts and the don't buzz.

In the case of Plasma displays, it is not the display panel itself that buzzes. The most likely cause of a buzz would be a transformer in the power supply with loose windings or a loose laminate core. That might manifest itself with a slight vibration of the set, and some loose piece (like the bezel) might vibrate. In any event, it is not inherent with the technology, and not likely to go away (in fact, it is more likely to get worse with time).
post #1683 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleguito View Post

I'm completely new to plasma sets and just got a S60 but have a few questions.

-There is a pretty noticeable him coming from the set when there's no sound. Does this go away over time?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1473863/buzzing-sound-and-extreme-dithering-grain-on-s60-series-2013-panasonic-plasma#post_23344961
Quote:
-I use an OTA antenna and was trying to figure out how to get audio to pass through to my receiver (without powering it on). Is this possible and which settings should I look for?

I don't get the question. If you don't turn the TV on, there will be no audio. If you don't turn the AVR on, there will be no audio (unless you turn up the TV volume).
post #1684 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Whaaaat? That's way too low. My ST60 would get 30+ fL at a setting of 52 and panel brightness Mid. Are the two sets that different?

It all depends on what size patterns you are using to measure said ftl...

Pop up a 10-14% window and I see around 30-32 ftl.

Pop up a full field pattern and I see 7 ftl (I think it was 7 ft, maybe 5, was definitely sub 10 ftl)

Pop up a 4% window you will see higher ftl, etc etc...
post #1685 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

It is not the florescent tube that buzzes' but rather it was the windings in the ballast used with that light that would buzz. Today, most florescent light fixtures use solid state ballasts and the don't buzz.

In the case of Plasma displays, it is not the display panel itself that buzzes. The most likely cause of a buzz would be a transformer in the power supply with loose windings or a loose laminate core. That might manifest itself with a slight vibration of the set, and some loose piece (like the bezel) might vibrate. In any event, it is not inherent with the technology, and not likely to go away (in fact, it is more likely to get worse with time).

I guess using the word "tube" was an error on my part. I am aware of the fact that it is the electronics the produce the buzz, I should have been more verbose in my statement!

Thanks for the elaboration.
post #1686 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by aman74 View Post

Why? Is the motion better handled on the S60 vs the ST60? That's not my impression from the reading I've done, especially considering the ST60 has proper 24p handling...

What is the PS3/60p workaround someone mentioned as well? I thought there wasn't much difference in whether the TV or the player did the conversion to 60p and I don't think it needs to be a PS3, but any Blu-Ray player set to 60p anyhow, correct?

Thanks.

Here ya' go. Post 692.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461177/official-panasonic-s60-series-discussion-thread/690
Edited by MountainMichael - 5/24/13 at 10:10pm
post #1687 of 6823
The display of 24fps content is my #1 hesitation in purchasing an S64 - I'm an avid movie watcher and currently spoiled by my DLP TV, which can play 24fps content no problem.

I'll have to set my blu-ray to output 60fps and see if it bothers me on my current set before I make a purchase.

Still, it's hard to justify an approximately $1000 difference between a ST60 and a S64 if film cadence my only major concern between the two sets (well dithering is too, but I don't think I'd notice it in real world content too much).
post #1688 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by joedog000 View Post

The display of 24fps content is my #1 hesitation in purchasing an S64 - I'm an avid movie watcher and currently spoiled by my DLP TV, which can play 24fps content no problem.

I'll have to set my blu-ray to output 60fps and see if it bothers me on my current set before I make a purchase.

Still, it's hard to justify an approximately $1000 difference between a ST60 and a S64 if film cadence my only major concern between the two sets (well dithering is too, but I don't think I'd notice it in real world content too much).

The testing you mention sounds like a good idea to me.

I don't know if Sam's or CostCo is set up so you could try a familiar blu ray disk there or not. If yes, I would suggest doing that if you plan to watch a lot of blu ray content. However, I've read that the "club" demo environment isn't very user friendly. For example, even if you can play a blu ray, the TV may be way up on a shelf where you can't see it properly.
Edited by MountainMichael - 5/24/13 at 12:13pm
post #1689 of 6823
Anyone have recommended blu-rays scenes (beside the golf scene in I Am Legend CNET always seems to refer to) to use for testing of FPS and flicker/stuttering?
post #1690 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

Below is too wordy; will clean out the clutter in a bit. If you don't care to read about the specific details of the 24p conversion problem again and want to get straight to the workaround, see the bolded text below and the link with that.

Not too wordy...no need to clean it up. Your time is much appreciated. I do understand, in a very basic way, the 24p issue. So having said that, it was a surprise to see that other poster recommend the S60 over the ST60 when motion handling is being discussed as the ST should be superior if flicker at 96hz isn't an issue for someone. Maybe his post was just poorly worded and he was just referring to price. My overall impression is that Plasma, even the sets that do 60hz only and don't have "proper" 24p handling are still better than LCD in general, not sure though. I guess I'd have to see it in person to know if I'd be bothered or not. Also, size seems to be an issue as well, so maybe more of a concern if I went for the 65" model. My buddy has an ST30 and I don't believe that has proper handling and even being a big film buff I haven't been really bothered by anything on his set, but it's only a 42" set. Also, if I saw a direct comparison and noticed the flaw then I might see it forever more. wink.gif

Thanks for the help and good to know about the possible workaround if I end up buying something and am bothered about it. I don't think I'm going to really know until I buy something, but that's such a hassle, so why I'm trying to get as much input from folks here in advance.
post #1691 of 6823
aman74,

YW & thanks for your kind input. I believe you are doing the right thing gathering as much info as you can in advance. Best of luck with whatever you decide on. I can't comment on LCD's as I haven't owned one.

The 65" is pretty big, so it could cause content motion issues to be more visible. I suspect that would be most critical if viewing from the short end of the THX recommended distances for panels. Depending on recliner position, I'm at 9 to 10 feet. There's a lot good about the big screen, but at this distance and coming from a much smaller CRT, the motion took some getting used to.
Edited by MountainMichael - 5/24/13 at 10:13pm
post #1692 of 6823
Thanks for all the help everyone. Have we seen any official input lag tests on this thing? I'm reading everything from "it hardly has any lag" to "I hear it's pushing around 4 frames of lag". Has anyone done any actual tests beyond just an initial impression?
post #1693 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post


I was wondering how I'd fit in a center channel speaker since you can't support one on top of these "new-fangled" thin flat screens. Now I know and someday will eventually get around to shopping for a center speaker and subwoofer.

Damn, man you gotta quit editing your posts - I was trying to quote your picture of your very visible A/V stand and center channel, when you replaced it with ones in the dark...
post #1694 of 6823





Edited by MountainMichael - 5/24/13 at 10:09pm
post #1695 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

It all depends on what size patterns you are using to measure said ftl...

Pop up a 10-14% window and I see around 30-32 ftl.

Pop up a full field pattern and I see 7 ftl (I think it was 7 ft, maybe 5, was definitely sub 10 ftl)

Pop up a 4% window you will see higher ftl, etc etc...

Yeah I know about that, but what were you using to calibrate? I thought you're supposed to use a 10% window.
post #1696 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by PogueSquadron View Post

Thanks for all the help everyone. Have we seen any official input lag tests on this thing? I'm reading everything from "it hardly has any lag" to "I hear it's pushing around 4 frames of lag". Has anyone done any actual tests beyond just an initial impression?

I did a test using the Rock Band 2 self calibration on the set, it's results are a few pages back. Just search my posts, i only have like 4 or 5.
post #1697 of 6823
The S60 is 2 frames of lag. Not even close to 4 frames. It's a great panel for low response time. The only panel that beats it is the U54, but it's also 2 frames of lag.
post #1698 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Yeah I know about that, but what were you using to calibrate? I thought you're supposed to use a 10% window.

My Cinema calibration uses the AVS HD709 window patterns which I believe use 14% windows.

My Custom calibration uses the GCD 10% window patterns.

There is no "supposed to use" for size with plasma. Some people swear by APL patterns to try to bypass some of the nasty ABL of plasma's, other's just use plain windows (window in center with black all around). Different size window patterns will trigger ABL differently and sometimes cause changes in gamma readings. But perhaps the ST60 does output more light, or maybe it doesn't. Only way to know exactly is to use the same patterns + same meter + the same calibration software and the two TV's in the same calibration environment.
post #1699 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

FWIW, I wanted to order a riser to make my existing TV stand work for good height and a place to park a center channel speaker, but the main 2 makers of add on TV risers had some pretty negative feedback for promising 2 to 3 weeks but taking up to 6 months. eek.gif

So I made my own from oak lumber sides and oak plywood top. Lucked out on the stain matching my new speakers.

Actually in the original picture, I hadn't even noticed the riser and thought you put the pedestal directly on top of the speaker. But I guess a riser is necessary to avoid vibrations from being transmitted to the TV.
Actually now that I think about it, I have plenty of space in my AV shelf to put a speaker in it. I just hope the top shelf is not too low for correct voice imaging. Yeah, I was an audiophile long before becoming a videophile.
post #1700 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Broadcast (and cable) TV "HD" standards are: 720p & 1080i. That's it! The only standard source of 1080p (barring some streaming sites - which impose other limitations on quality) is Blu-ray.

Most all displays today are 1080p, not because that is "better", but because that is the way that those displays work internally. Really, the only displays that were interlaced in their operation were the old CRTs ("paint" all of the odd lines, then "paint" the even lines).

Oh, phew, so I'm not missing anything. I need to find more 1080p content - I only have 1 Blu-ray disc! Does the S60/S64 de-interlace (convert 1080i to 1080p) and do some sort of line doubling to improve the display? Or is this the Soap Opera Effect only available on higher models?

The S64 looks great (even at default settings) compared to my old 34XBR800 CRT - only thing is it has this glossy look even with the AR filter. I hope to get in some viewing time this weekend (when I'm not outdoors in the nice weather) and fiddle with some custom settings. Oh, and all HDMI connections from this, my DVR / cable box, and Blu-ray direct to my receiver, there is no sound from the rear of the TV - not even buzzing (well I have to turn off all my speakers and have another listen later). Also it seems when I turn off the TV, my AVR turns off with it as well - nice - I hope I can do this one-touch operation turning on the TV and AVR as well.
Edited by HDTimeShifter - 5/24/13 at 4:44pm
post #1701 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

My Cinema calibration uses the AVS HD709 window patterns which I believe use 14% windows.

My Custom calibration uses the GCD 10% window patterns.

There is no "supposed to use" for size with plasma. Some people swear by APL patterns to try to bypass some of the nasty ABL of plasma's, other's just use plain windows (window in center with black all around). Different size window patterns will trigger ABL differently and sometimes cause changes in gamma readings. But perhaps the ST60 does output more light, or maybe it doesn't. Only way to know exactly is to use the same patterns + same meter + the same calibration software and the two TV's in the same calibration environment.

Agreed about using the same meter and setup for both TV's. A 10% window 100 IRE pattern was getting me 30 fL at 52 contrast, and a full field 100 IRE got me about 15 to 17. I didn't really like pushing the contrast much higher because usually it starts to get too bright for me to tolerate.

What does a APL pattern look like, and could I modify my window patterns to be APL?
post #1702 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTimeShifter View Post

Oh, phew, so I'm not missing anything. I need to find more 1080p content - I only have 1 Blu-ray disc! Does the S60/S64 de-interlace (convert 1080i to 1080p) and do some sort of line doubling to improve the display?
Yes, it (and virtually all other modern HDTVs) de-interlace the image. But, that is not line doubling - it de-interfaces by storing an odd (540 x 1920) field and then an even (540 x 1920) field, combining them and then dumping (transferring) the complete (1080 by 1920) frame to the panel.
Quote:
Or is this the Soap Opera Effect only available on higher models?
By "Soap Opera Effect, do you mean frame interpolation, where the display creates intermediate frames (example: the display is refreshed at 120Hz and the input signal is 24Hz, then four "intermediate" frames are created)? That is an entirely different process and is not related to the signal being interlaced or progressive. For this feature to have value (and many will debate if it does have value), the displays refresh rate has to be higher than 60Hz.
post #1703 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Agreed about using the same meter and setup for both TV's. A 10% window 100 IRE pattern was getting me 30 fL at 52 contrast, and a full field 100 IRE got me about 15 to 17. I didn't really like pushing the contrast much higher because usually it starts to get too bright for me to tolerate.

What does a APL pattern look like, and could I modify my window patterns to be APL?

I'm not really sure how to best describe APL patterns, and I don't have experience using them. But FWIW, there are APL patterns in AVS HD 709, so you can just download that and take a look.
Also FWIW, I unfortunately missed (most of) day 2 of the shootout, but someone somewhere posted that the calibrators said that standard window patterns worked better for calibrating the Panasonic models and APL patterns worked better for calibrating the F8500.

When you say that you were getting 15-17 fL on a full field, you are talking about an ST60, right? That would basically fall in line with other measurements that I have seen for the ST60, and it is also in the ballpark of the plasma that I'm replacing (17 fL). Apparently, the S60/64, VT60 and ZT60 are all much lower than that -- also lower with other high-ish APL patterns, like ANSI patterns, which is a really huge turn-off for me.... a deal-breaker, really.
post #1704 of 6823
I was wondering if the S30 and S60 both shared similarities with each other, or is it in name only? I was thinkin maybe that had something to do with why they both seem to have good input lag. Do the guts in the TV have anything in common?
post #1705 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

I'm not really sure how to best describe APL patterns, and I don't have experience using them. But FWIW, there are APL patterns in AVS HD 709, so you can just download that and take a look.
Also FWIW, I unfortunately missed (most of) day 2 of the shootout, but someone somewhere posted that the calibrators said that standard window patterns worked better for calibrating the Panasonic models and APL patterns worked better for calibrating the F8500.

When you say that you were getting 15-17 fL on a full field, you are talking about an ST60, right? That would basically fall in line with other measurements that I have seen for the ST60, and it is also in the ballpark of the plasma that I'm replacing (17 fL). Apparently, the S60/64, VT60 and ZT60 are all much lower than that -- also lower with other high-ish APL patterns, like ANSI patterns, which is a really huge turn-off for me.... a deal-breaker, really.

Oh yes, it was the ST60, and full field was 15 fL at half possible max contrast. It's probably fairly easy to get full field around 20 and window at 40, which would probably be a nice balance as far as that's concerned. I'm pretty sure the ST60 can get really bright, but I'm not sure that it won't start crushing whites at that point. The shootout was calibrated to 30, 35, for the ZT/VT respectively because anything more and those sets would start crushing whites.
post #1706 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by wario76 View Post

Why is it that many people prefer the s60 over the st60?

For me the number one reason is there is no AR filter on the S60. The second would be the input lag (or lack there of).
post #1707 of 6823
But I guess the most important is the PQ, the ST60 suppose to have a better PQ than S60 ?
post #1708 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by echoesian View Post

But I guess the most important is the PQ, the ST60 suppose to have a better PQ than S60 ?

According to everyone in the world other than RWetmore, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Oh yes, it was the ST60, and full field was 15 fL at half possible max contrast. It's probably fairly easy to get full field around 20 and window at 40...

I strongly doubt it. It sounds like you're saying that you measured a full field at 15 fL, but you suspect that it would be brighter if you increased contrast. I doubt that would be the case. If you increased contrast, I would expect luminance of a full white field to stay the same. Although increasing contrast would obviously affect the brightness of lower APL content, I wouldn't expect it to have any impact on very high APL content, like a 100 IRE full field. And sadly, 20 fL would be an unusually high measurement for full field white on a plasma. All measurements that I've seen of the ST60 so far have been between 13 and 18.5 fL.

Have you measured a full white field on your 51" F8500? The only F8500 measurements that I've seen were taken on the 64". At the Shootout, I think they indicated that the 51" F8500 is even brighter than the larger sizes (with approximately the same MLL). The 64" has been measured at around 24 fL. If the 51" is even brighter with a full white field, that would be impressive.
post #1709 of 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Yes, it (and virtually all other modern HDTVs) de-interlace the image. But, that is not line doubling - it de-interfaces by storing an odd (540 x 1920) field and then an even (540 x 1920) field, combining them and then dumping (transferring) the complete (1080 by 1920) frame to the panel.

By "Soap Opera Effect, do you mean frame interpolation, where the display creates intermediate frames (example: the display is refreshed at 120Hz and the input signal is 24Hz, then four "intermediate" frames are created)? That is an entirely different process and is not related to the signal being interlaced or progressive. For this feature to have value (and many will debate if it does have value), the displays refresh rate has to be higher than 60Hz.

Hmm, according to Wikipedia (which we all know is the Bible wink.gif), line-doubling is the same as de-interlacing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_doubler

Yes SOA, which has been mentioned previously, but I think is only available on other models is supposed to help motion by interpolating between frames, but a lot of people apparently don't like it except for sports. I don't get all the 24, etc. Hz discussion. I guess most older non-digital movies are created at lower rates than 120 Hz? I guess this is a moot point since our S60/S64 models don't have this feature anyway?

Last night was the first night I had time to spend some significant time viewing my new 65S64. Wow, bigger is better. CATS became annoying fairly soon, so I turned it off. Even though it is supposed to be for ambient lighting, with my room lighting constant, I noticed it dimming the display on bright white scenes - I guess it was kicking in based on feedback from the screen itself lighting up the room. I also turned off power saving and vivid mode, but kept it in standard mode. The pixel orbiter setting is confusing. It only has options for On or Auto, no Off. I looked up my printed version of the eManual, and it does not tell the difference between On and Auto. I'll have to search through this thread, but can anyone save me the trouble and tell me what each means?
post #1710 of 6823
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTimeShifter View Post

I finally got my 65S64 set up yesterday. I noticed my set says the display is 1080i, then discovered my Comcast Motorola HD DVR / cable box only goes up to 1080i! Since I couldn't find any related thread here I'll ask here: does anyone with Comcast have a cable box that outputs 1080p? If so, I'm going to ask to swap my box out for a newer one. I previously just assumed it only went up to 1080i because my old TV was 1080i. In the meantime, it's a good excuse to hook up my antenna and see what kind of OTA reception I get and if I get 1080p through that.

As already stated you'll only get 720p and/or 1080i out of a cable box or DVR as those are the only two broadcast standards for HD. Pressing the INFO key on the Panny remote simply tells you what kind of signal the TV is getting from your DVR.

That said, i've found that setting my cable DVR and HD Tivo output format settings to output everything at 1080i Fixed gives a crisper and more detailed HD image compared to setting it at 720p fixed or native, especially on the 720p channels. This holds true on all of my various HD TVs and those of my friends. Try it for yourself and see if you notice it.


Quote:
The set is not too big for my room - the picture is great - now I can read the tiny temperature and/or time text local channels display at the right bottom of the screen - it seems like the screen is 3-4 times as big as my old 34" CRT!

Wow that's a huge jump! Your 65" screen is a whopping 266% larger than your 34" screen.

Your 34 incher's Viewing area is 29.6 in (w) x 16.7 in (h)
Your 65 incher's Viewing area is 56.7 in (w) x 31.9 in (h)

Your 34 incher's Total viewing area is 494.32 sq inches
Your 65 incher's Total viewing area is 1808.73 sq inches

Screen Size Calculator
http://www.cavecreations.com/tv2.cgi
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