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Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 21

post #601 of 6832
Hehe, yep, very familiar with that review. If those findings are similar to CNET's review, I might actually be a bit disappointed (hopefully just marginally).
At best, the ST30 (based on CNET's review) is actually a bit darker than the S60, with the ST50 and ST60 noticeably beating it. Hmm.
post #602 of 6832
The problem is, Televisioninfo's numbers don't seem to line up. In their S60 review, they state in the chart on the second page that the VT50 has a minimum luminance of .03 cd/m^2, whereas CNET finds it at a much lower .0024 cd/m^2.
post #603 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCMike80 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

[/quote

I hate to give you bad news, but if you're used to 3 led tvs then I have to say the glare will probably bother you during the day unless you close the blinds in your room. I also see you have nice recessed lighting and those lights may pose some unwanted glare. Think of it as a 65 inch crt tv. I will post some pics during the day so maybe you can get an idea of the glare. My advice would be to get the s64 or the st60.


Thx, I've made up my mind, I'm calling them tomorrow morning switching it for an ST.. I don't want to be sitting there for years (I plan on keeping this tv until the next thing (OLED?) is affordable in 60"+ sizes) staring at a 65" inch mirror next to that bay window (and those lights like you mention..)

It'll cost me more but at least in my situation I won't regret it..

Thanks again for your opinion and for posting those pics.. nice setup, the 65S60 looks sweet!
post #604 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

Thx, I've made up my mind, I'm calling them tomorrow morning switching it for an ST.. I don't want to be sitting there for years (I plan on keeping this tv until the next thing (OLED?) is affordable in 60"+ sizes) staring at a 65" inch mirror next to that bay window (and those lights like you mention..)

It'll cost me more but at least in my situation I won't regret it..

Thanks again for your opinion and for posting those pics.. nice setup, the 65S60 looks sweet!

Glad to help. Let us know how the st60 is when it comes in.
post #605 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

The problem is, Televisioninfo's numbers don't seem to line up. In their S60 review, they state in the chart on the second page that the VT50 has a minimum luminance of .03 cd/m^2, whereas CNET finds it at a much lower .0024 cd/m^2.


Wow, that's a huge difference. I see your point. What different models are you deciding between?
post #606 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCMike80 View Post

Wow, that's a huge difference. I see your point. What different models are you deciding between?
I originally was dead-set on a 50ST60. But as a 30fps console gamer (as well as avid blu-ray connoisseur, hehe), the lag issues with the set would kill me. I used my ST30 outside of game mode, but the difference in lag was pretty nil. Assuming the S60 is as good PQ and lag-wise (the latter pretty much proven), I'm leaning towards that in the 60-inch size. I've given a bit of thought to the Samsung plasmas, but am pretty loyal to how well D-Nice's settings provide a great picture.

Three things could solve this: 1. I lived overseas where I could get a GT60 2. My budget allowed for a VT60 3. Panasonic gets off their high-horse and at least addresses the stupid lag problem and if they don't fix via firmware, someone on here develops a custom one.

Neither of the above are likely to happen, so I'm waiting for a good leo bognar lag test on the ST60, as well as CNET's review of the S60 for a bit more objective information than Televisioninfo's seemingly inflated/inaccurate numbers.
post #607 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

The problem is, Televisioninfo's numbers don't seem to line up. In their S60 review, they state in the chart on the second page that the VT50 has a minimum luminance of .03 cd/m^2, whereas CNET finds it at a much lower .0024 cd/m^2.

Cnet:
VT50= 0.0024
GT50= 0.0051
ST50= 0.0050
UT50= 0.0037
U50= 0.0031
ST60= 0.0037

Here are all the blacks levels from Cnet Reviews for last last years. I imagine the S60/S64 will be somewhere in this range, which are all really good.

Like you, I am curious how Cnet will measure the S60 to get a closer comparison.
post #608 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaboy1234 View Post

Cnet:
VT50= 0.0024
GT50= 0.0051
ST50= 0.0050
UT50= 0.0037
U50= 0.0031
ST60= 0.0037

Here are all the blacks levels from Cnet Reviews for last last years. I imagine the S60/S64 will be somewhere in this range, which are all really good.

Like you, I am curious how Cnet will measure the S60 to get a closer comparison.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I was about to say something along the lines that Televisioninfo's scores are all at least consistently higher, so CNET will more-than-likely find the blacks on the S60 to be noticeably lower than .01 cd/m^2.
post #609 of 6832
siusommd2010, can you post some pics of your 65s64 so we can see what the filter is like?
post #610 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Took the words right out of my mouth. I was about to say something along the lines that Televisioninfo's scores are all at least consistently higher, so CNET will more-than-likely find the blacks on the S60 to be noticeably lower than .01 cd/m^2.

Well I can tell you it is just as dark if not darker than the u50. You seem to have yourself a winner with the s60. This custom mode will look awesome if D-nice puts out proper calibration for it. I don't think you will be disappointed at all. I also want to mention that I'm not using the wifi connection available with the s60 as I wonder if it might introduce lag. You could always get it from Best buy as they have a good return policy just to test it out.
post #611 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

siusommd2010, can you post some pics of your 65s64 so we can see what the filter is like?

Any chance of reporting time to power on, & change stations (for OTA) if possible?
post #612 of 6832
Got my S60 today. I've only watched a couple of movies so far but I have to say this TV is stunning. I tried the ST60 first and couldn't stand it, I may have just got a dud on that one though. The tuner was no good on the ST60, everything was way too green, green skies, green yellows, etc., picture was grainy no matter where settings were. I'm kinda shocked this one looks the way it does after how bad the ST60 looked. Glad I didn't give up after the ST60. I think I'm seeing what people mean about the AR filter taking too much from the PQ of the TV. I have 2 Panny plasmas with the filter and this one looks a lot different without it. I'm definitely liking the way this looks better, far more vivid and clear than my old TVs. Part of that is just that the TV is newer but I can definitely see part of that is the lack of the AR filter also.
post #613 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Will do, Mike. ^.^ Bye-bye ST60.
Now a question of criticism. Not including the glare, what are 3 things you wish you could change about the S60?

I'd want a better calibration system such as 10-pt grayscale and gamma adjustments and YMC CMS adjustments.

Throw in 3D for the one movie I have in 3D (Prometheus)...

That's about it, aside from other obvious improvements to the PQ of the panel such as that better FFD motion resolution and lower MLL on the black level...
post #614 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

Got my S60 today. I've only watched a couple of movies so far but I have to say this TV is stunning. I tried the ST60 first and couldn't stand it, I may have just got a dud on that one though. The tuner was no good on the ST60, everything was way too green, green skies, green yellows, etc., picture was grainy no matter where settings were. I'm kinda shocked this one looks the way it does after how bad the ST60 looked. Glad I didn't give up after the ST60. I think I'm seeing what people mean about the AR filter taking too much from the PQ of the TV. I have 2 Panny plasmas with the filter and this one looks a lot different without it. I'm definitely liking the way this looks better, far more vivid and clear than my old TVs. Part of that is just that the TV is newer but I can definitely see part of that is the lack of the AR filter also.
Neat, sounds great. I'm looking forward to not having to look through a filter. tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

I'd want a better calibration system such as 10-pt grayscale and gamma adjustments and YMC CMS adjustments.

Throw in 3D for the one movie I have in 3D (Prometheus)...

That's about it, aside from other obvious improvements to the PQ of the panel such as that better FFD motion resolution and lower MLL on the black level...
Ah, yes, those would be a bit better (sans 3D, haha). I do wonder just how good the S60 will fare compared to the ST60 in raw PQ, since 600hz handles motion so well anyways. Hurry up, CNET... biggrin.gif
post #615 of 6832
There is one drawback I've seen on this TV compared to my old plasma I'm surprised no one else has mentioned, posterization is considerably worse on this TV than my 5 year old Panny plasma. I would have thought posterization would be close to a thing of the past by now, not worse. Having had plasmas for over 5 years I'm pretty much used to it by now. If I were just coming in to plasma and saw how bad it is on this TV it might drive me nuts though. There's no such thing as a perfect TV and if that's the price for the otherwise beautiful picture on this TV then so be it.
post #616 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

There is one drawback I've seen on this TV compared to my old plasma I'm surprised no one else has mentioned, posterization is considerably worse on this TV than my 5 year old Panny plasma. I would have thought posterization would be close to a thing of the past by now, not worse. Having had plasmas for over 5 years I'm pretty much used to it by now. If I were just coming in to plasma and saw how bad it is on this TV it might drive me nuts though. There's no such thing as a perfect TV and if that's the price for the otherwise beautiful picture on this TV then so be it.
Any way you could post a picture of the worst example you can find? Haven't read this at all from any reviews of the TV yet.
post #617 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Any way you could post a picture of the worst example you can find? Haven't read this at all from any reviews of the TV yet.

If you do a search for posterization you'll see what it is. On a plasma it's usually pink/purple in backgrounds that shouldn't be there although I have seen it in faces also. It's mostly pink on this TV which isn't as bad as purple to me. I keep my brightness/contrast pretty low which generally makes it worse but I turned both of those up in a scene with it last night and while it did get a little better it didn't go away.

Here's a good example from the internet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lucidity_I.jpg

I'll try to get a picture from the TV but I doubt it will come out. The flash on my camera is too bright and usually shows too much glare to get a photo of anything like that.
post #618 of 6832
So turn off the lights and turn off the flash of your camera, and then take a picture.
post #619 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

If you do a search for posterization you'll see what it is. On a plasma it's usually pink/purple in backgrounds that shouldn't be there although I have seen it in faces also. It's mostly pink on this TV which isn't as bad as purple to me. I keep my brightness/contrast pretty low which generally makes it worse but I turned both of those up in a scene with it last night and while it did get a little better it didn't go away.

Here's a good example from the internet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lucidity_I.jpg

I'll try to get a picture from the TV but I doubt it will come out. The flash on my camera is too bright and usually shows too much glare to get a photo of anything like that.
Yeouch, I looked it up before. Surely it's not anything like your linked example???
post #620 of 6832
He could be seeing color banding from lack of gradients, which overlaps in some ways with posterization.
post #621 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Yeouch, I looked it up before. Surely it's not anything like your linked example???

No, it's not like that. That's just en example of what it is. I mostly see it in backgrounds like walls or skies that have places with a pink or purple tint that shouldn't be there. All TVs do it to some extent. I've seen it in CRTs too though it's not as bad in a good CRT as flat screens.
post #622 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

He could be seeing color banding from lack of gradients, which overlaps in some ways with posterization.

This TV has 50% more gradients than my old TV that doesn't do it as bad as this one. It's more like poor video processing than a lack of gradients. This TV gives incredible bang for the buck, there has to be compromises somewhere and this is one of them.
Edited by samijubal - 4/17/13 at 7:22pm
post #623 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by samijubal View Post

There is one drawback I've seen on this TV compared to my old plasma I'm surprised no one else has mentioned, posterization is considerably worse on this TV than my 5 year old Panny plasma. I would have thought posterization would be close to a thing of the past by now, not worse. Having had plasmas for over 5 years I'm pretty much used to it by now. If I were just coming in to plasma and saw how bad it is on this TV it might drive me nuts though. There's no such thing as a perfect TV and if that's the price for the otherwise beautiful picture on this TV then so be it.

Glad you mentioned this as people might want to be aware. I'm in full agreement, every single thing about the S60 is stunning me except this one caveat. I figured it was the result of the fewer shades of gradation compared the other models; I also sit unusually close to the display. But I can certainly notice color banding on gradients and smoothly shaded surfaces; eg Pixar films, while they look ridiculously crisp, bright and vivid, can exhibit this problem pretty clearly if you're looking for it. But just like you said, everything else about this set is truly a sight to behold -- I really can't be bothered by this.
post #624 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by midkay View Post

Glad you mentioned this as people might want to be aware. I'm in full agreement, every single thing about the S60 is stunning me except this one caveat. I figured it was the result of the fewer shades of gradation compared the other models; I also sit unusually close to the display. But I can certainly notice color banding on gradients and smoothly shaded surfaces; eg Pixar films, while they look ridiculously crisp, bright and vivid, can exhibit this problem pretty clearly if you're looking for it. But just like you said, everything else about this set is truly a sight to behold -- I really can't be bothered by this.
Wondered when you'd chime back in here, midkay. tongue.gif

Quick question, do you think a R/G colorblind guy like me will notice the posterization, or is it more of a luminance artifact? Fwiw, my ST30 had the same number of gradations, never really picked up on posterization.
post #625 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

Any chance of reporting time to power on, & change stations (for OTA) if possible?


Probably wont be able to get to it until Friday, but I'll work on getting pics and times up as soon as I get a chance.
post #626 of 6832
Can anyone tell me how the S60 compares with the ST50 when it comes to picture quality? Does one panel have an advantage over the other?

I know the ST60 has a better picture quality than the ST50 but the input lag is a deal breaker. Is the S60 on par with the ST50, or does the newer model have an advantage compared to last year's ST50?

Also, can anyone compare the input response/lag of the S60 compared to the ST50. Are they on par, or does one have an advantage over the other?
post #627 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Wondered when you'd chime back in here, midkay. tongue.gif

Quick question, do you think a R/G colorblind guy like me will notice the posterization, or is it more of a luminance artifact? Fwiw, my ST30 had the same number of gradations, never really picked up on posterization.

I have a feeling you would be able to see it about as well as anyone would. I took a couple pictures, they aren't the best, but might give you an idea what the effect looks like. This is loading up Nadeo's hub for all their games, ManiaPlanet: on the [S60] and on my [LCD monitor]. You'll be able to see the individual steps of gradation on the S60 for all these different lightnesses of blue, but the gradation runs together better on the LCD. Upon close inspection it looks like my LCD has around double the steps of gradation, i.e. I see around twice as many of these individual color steps on my LCD so from a reasonable distance the gradient looks smoother on it.

This all makes me dream of how beautiful color reproduction might look on displays in the future when we've widely moved on from the 24-bit color/256 RGB values paradigm for our screens and content. Imagine seeing your favorite film with double or quadruple the color data :O

EDIT: Looking at the pictures again, a darker exposure for the LCD (it is a lot less vivid than the S60) made the comparison less than fair. I uploaded a better picture to even things out more.
Edited by midkay - 4/17/13 at 10:03pm
post #628 of 6832
Yeah, that's the lack of gradients. I noticed that on the UT50 as well, especially on stuff like Windows desktop backgrounds. ST60 with 2x the gradients does not look like that.

Which is why it's so disappointing about the ST60 lag.
post #629 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by midkay View Post


This all makes me dream of how beautiful color reproduction might look on displays in the future when we've widely moved on from the 24-bit color/256 RGB values paradigm for our screens and content. Imagine seeing your favorite film with double or quadruple the color data :O
.
24 bit depth displays millions of colors, these issues don't show on my Imac display.

Cnet saw this "stepping" too on the ST60 with the reviewer referencing the creation sequence from the movie Tree Of Life-

"I also noticed what appeared to be slightly smoother gradations on the ST60. At the 22:09 mark during "Tree of Life," the fading light from a white galaxy appeared smoother on the ST60 (and the Sony LCD) than on any of the other plasmas (including the S60), which showed visible gradation steps of minor "false contouring" or solarization. Many other similar images in this sequence of "ToL" did show visible gradations on the ST60 as well; however, they're rare in other program material on any display. It's worth noting that Panasonic touts improved gradation only on its 2013 VT60 and ZT60 models, so I'm not sure whether what I saw is related."

The question is how often and bad this will show itself on the S60. Is the Katsmeister correct in that this is rare?

Hi all, looking for my first flat panel. This forum is a great resource.
post #630 of 6832
I see it a lot on my TV, pretty much constantly. Picture settings can have a significant difference on how bad it is though. Reviewers probably won't see it near as much as I do because they are watching calibrated TVs. It's bad enough that I'm thinking of trying another ST60. After seeing this TV I'm pretty sure the ST60 I had was just bad. I'd pay the extra money of the ST60 to get rid of it and have some extra picture settings. I never even watched the ST60 I had it was just way too green to be watchable so I don't know if it does it or not.
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