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ee/ColorBox, LightSpace, and 3D LUT Calibration - Page 6

post #151 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

Just to clarify, once the projector and plasma have been calibrated with LS and both profiles loaded into the eeBox, the eeBox will detect what display I am using at the moment and apply the correct profile. Is that correct ?

No ! The eeColorBox doesn't know anything about the device connected at the output. YOU have to select the desired memory in the eeColorBox manually for the output device.

For example:

memory 1 = LUT for the TV
memory 2 = LUT for the projector

For the TV you manually select memory 1, for the projector memory 2.
post #152 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

No. A 17x17x17 point color profile is made from each display. The profiles are then used to produce look up tables. The LUTs are loaded into the eeBox and from that point you must select which LUT you want to process the signal using the remote control.

Edit: You must use the HDMI splitter so that the selected LUT is going to the proper display.

Thanks Buzz. That is clear to me now. My Onkyo NR5009 receiver has 2 HDMI outputs so I don't think I need an HDMI splitter.
post #153 of 253
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

Thanks Buzz. That is clear to me now. My Onkyo NR5009 receiver has 2 HDMI outputs so I don't think I need an HDMI splitter.

In that case you would not.
Source > eeBox > Onkyo > Display
post #154 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

No ! The eeColorBox doesn't know anything about the device connected at the output. YOU have to select the desired memory in the eeColorBox manually for the output device.

For example:

memory 1 = LUT for the TV
memory 2 = LUT for the projector

For the TV you manually select memory 1, for the projector memory 2.

okay, then for each memory I can still have 6 color tables/ choices ?
post #155 of 253
But he will need a HDMI splitter when using more than one source via the AVR with the eeColorBox wink.gif
post #156 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

okay, then for each memory I can still have 6 color tables/ choices ?

No, memory 1 = LUT 1, memory 2 = LUT 2 ... memory 6 = LUT 6.
post #157 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

No, memory 1 = LUT 1, memory 2 = LUT 2 ... memory 6 = LUT 6.

Then I can use Memory 1,2,3 for projector with 3 color choices and Memory 4,5,6 for plasma tv with 3 color choices ?
post #158 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

Then I can use Memory 1,2,3 for projector with 3 color choices and Memory 4,5,6 for plasma tv with 3 color choices ?

Yes, for example. You can also use 5 memories for the tv and 1 for the projector ... that's your decision smile.gif
post #159 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

But he will need a HDMI splitter when using more than one source via the AVR with the eeColorBox wink.gif

The eeBox cannot come after the AVR ?
post #160 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

The eeBox cannot come after the AVR ?

Sure, that's possible. But then you can only use the eeColorBox for your tv OR your projector.
post #161 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post


I found your statement 'the Light Space concept can´t work' very funny after reading your post, since I have experienced the difference of using LightSpace (using it 4 months already).....also used CalMAN/ChromaPure for the last 3 years.

You don´t read my posting correct. I don´t mean that the Light Space concept can´t work. But if your statement is true, that calibrating one color point influenced other point in the cube then please tell me how can Light Space produce a correct LUT if it measured every point only once. For example measured point A first and then point B let us say the correction of point B would produce a modification for point A how take Light Space care of this?

The concept could only work good if the calibration of one point in the cube doesn´t influence any other point in the cube. Because I have no doubt that the Light Space concept worked fine, I believe your statement isn´t true.
post #162 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredman2005 View Post

But if your statement is true, that calibrating one color point influenced other point in the cube then please tell me how can Light Space produce a correct LUT if it measured every point only once.

You can find the answer here: CLICK !

I have posted it TO YOU a few hours ago. You only have to read it rolleyes.gif
post #163 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

You can find the answer here: CLICK !

I have posted it TO YOU a few hours ago. You only have to read it rolleyes.gif

I understand your posting but it is not the answer how Light Space could work if the calibration interacts with other points in the cube. So I believe there is no interaction between the points.
post #164 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredman2005 View Post

I understand your posting but it is not the answer how Light Space could work if the calibration interacts with other points in the cube.

Sorry, but then you didn't understand my answer - it explains all you want to know smile.gif
post #165 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredman2005 View Post


But if your statement is true, that calibrating one color point influenced other point in the cube then please tell me how can Light Space produce a correct LUT if it measured every point only once.

Check the CalMAN reports at this thread to see how it's possible....

Using LightSpace in one minute or less you can create 10 different LUT's from a 17-Point Cube Display Characterization Data.

You can make for example:

1 LUT for REC.709 2.2 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.709 2.22 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.709 2.25 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.709 2.3 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.709 2.35 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.709 2.4 Gamma
1 LUT for BT.1886 2.2 Gamma
1 LUT for BT.1886 2.4 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.601 EBU 2.2 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.601 NTSC 2.2 Gamma

All these ColorSpace Converions and many more! with one read per color point........ 4913 Color Points need 4913 Meter Reads...... Can't be faster....... This shows the difference in Color Science between Software Solutions. Not only faster but more accurate also.....
post #166 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

The problem is that the Consumer Player are not so accurate so it will distort the final calibration because of their inaccurate output.

These are examples of Consumer Blu-Ray Players that tested using Quantum Data HDMI Analyser:

http://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?6671-【訊源】OPPO-BDP-105-BDP-103-儀器實測分析

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/september-2011/panasonic-dmp-bdt210-blu-ray-player/panasonic-dmp-bdt210-hdmi-benchmark-tables-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/november-2011/lg-bd670-blu-ray-player/lg-bd670-hdmi-results-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/december-2011/samsung-bd-d6500-blu-ray-player/samsung-bd-d6500-hdmi-analysis-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/july-2011/samsung-bd-d5500-blu-ray-player/samsung-bd-d5500-hdmi-test-results-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/june-2011/sony-bdp-s580-blu-ray-player/sony-bdp-s580-hdmi-results-lg.jpg

As you see , all players are changing the signal at their output, so calibrating 3D Cube using a Disk as a Source is the most accurate way of calibrating a consumer setup calibrating and correcting errors to the whole chain.

A 100.000$ Lab Grade Pattern Generator will aware all these player problems, you can't see or fix them. The only way currently to Fix these problems is to use Ted's Calibration Disk - LightSpace Software Combination, if you need the best possible results from your current Blu-Ray Player you are using as a source.

Thanks ted, very useful. I notice that the Panasonic puts out a reference signal in normal mode, with advanced chroma turned off. The samsung (and the LG) have a nasty non-linearity where everything between 0-15 outputs 16 and which no calibration can solve. The sony looks particularly nasty and could certainly use a custom calibration. Luckily my s790 isn't as bad:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2012/august-2012/sony-bdp-s790-blu-ray-player/sony-bdp-s790-blu-ray-player-hdmi-bench-results-lg.jpg
Though strangely the lower priced s590 is bit perfect
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-ray-players/blu-ray-players-reviews/sony-bdp-s590-blu-ray-player/page-4-on-the-bench.html

Do you know how stable these blue ray player results are across firmware changes?
Edited by work permit - 3/31/13 at 5:44pm
post #167 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by work permit View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

The problem is that the Consumer Player are not so accurate so it will distort the final calibration because of their inaccurate output.

These are examples of Consumer Blu-Ray Players that tested using Quantum Data HDMI Analyser:

http://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?6671-【訊源】OPPO-BDP-105-BDP-103-儀器實測分析

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/september-2011/panasonic-dmp-bdt210-blu-ray-player/panasonic-dmp-bdt210-hdmi-benchmark-tables-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/november-2011/lg-bd670-blu-ray-player/lg-bd670-hdmi-results-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/december-2011/samsung-bd-d6500-blu-ray-player/samsung-bd-d6500-hdmi-analysis-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/july-2011/samsung-bd-d5500-blu-ray-player/samsung-bd-d5500-hdmi-test-results-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/june-2011/sony-bdp-s580-blu-ray-player/sony-bdp-s580-hdmi-results-lg.jpg

As you see , all players are changing the signal at their output, so calibrating 3D Cube using a Disk as a Source is the most accurate way of calibrating a consumer setup calibrating and correcting errors to the whole chain.

A 100.000$ Lab Grade Pattern Generator will aware all these player problems, you can't see or fix them. The only way currently to Fix these problems is to use Ted's Calibration Disk - LightSpace Software Combination, if you need the best possible results from your current Blu-Ray Player you are using as a source.

Thanks ted, very useful. I notice that the Panasonic puts out a reference signal in normal mode, with advanced chroma turned off. The samsung (and the LG) have a nasty non-linearity where everything between 0-15 outputs 16 and which no calibration can solve. The sony looks particularly nasty and could certainly use a custom calibration. Luckily my s790 isn't as bad:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2012/august-2012/sony-bdp-s790-blu-ray-player/sony-bdp-s790-blu-ray-player-hdmi-bench-results-lg.jpg

Do you know how stable these blue ray player results are across firmware changes?

Firmware upgrade maybe solve some problems or introduce some new ones.

Oppo Supposed to had the most reference output as this benchmark shows:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2012/december-2012/oppo-bdp-103-blu-ray-player/oppo-bdp-103-blu-ray-player-hdmi-benchmark-lg.jpg

but Chinese Hi-End Forum found different results using the same QD 780:

http://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?6671-【訊源】OPPO-BDP-105-BDP-103-儀器實測分析
post #168 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Check the CalMAN reports at this thread to see how it's possible....

Using LightSpace in one minute or less you can create 10 different LUT's from a 17-Point Cube Display Characterization Data.

You can make for example:

1 LUT for REC.709 2.2 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.709 2.22 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.709 2.25 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.709 2.3 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.709 2.35 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.709 2.4 Gamma
1 LUT for BT.1886 2.2 Gamma
1 LUT for BT.1886 2.4 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.601 EBU 2.2 Gamma
1 LUT for REC.601 NTSC 2.2 Gamma

All these ColorSpace Converions and many more! with one read per color point........ 4913 Color Points need 4913 Meter Reads...... Can't be faster....... This shows the difference in Color Science between Software Solutions. Not only faster but more accurate also.....


Ok, last try!

I believe, that Light Space does a good job in measurement, calibrating and calculating LUT.

But for my understanding this can´t work, if one calibrated point influence other points in the cube, So I think that the statement from you that they do isn´t right.

So a simple question to the maker of Light Space:

Does the calibration of one color point influence any other point in the cube? If yes, how you can take care of this?

I will try a simplified example:

You measured color point A with a value of 249, the right value you know is 250 so your correction value is +1.
Then you measured point B with a value of 130, the right value is 128 so your correction value is minus 2.
After the correction of point B it influenced point A so that a new measured value of point A would be 250 and no correction would be necessary. Because Light Space doesn´t measured point A again, how could it know the new correction value?
post #169 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredman2005 View Post

Ok, last try!

I believe, that Light Space does a good job in measurement, calibrating and calculating LUT.

But for my understanding this can´t work, if one calibrated point influence other points in the cube, So I think that the statement from you that they do isn´t right.

So a simple question to the maker of Light Space:

Does the calibration of one color point influence any other point in the cube? If yes, how you can take care of this?

I will try a simplified example:

You measured color point A with a value of 249, the right value you know is 250 so your correction value is +1.
Then you measured point B with a value of 130, the right value is 128 so your correction value is minus 2.
After the correction of point B it influenced point A so that a new measured value of point A would be 250 and no correction would be necessary. Because Light Space doesn´t measured point A again, how could it know the new correction value?

You are little confused about how LightSpace works.

LightSpace uses ''Global Corretion'', it measures each color point only one time during display profiling (to know the full capabilities of the display) and after that it creates the total correction or all the color points at once, It's not measuring each color point one by one and using real-time correction trying to fix each one-by-one taking 2-3 measurements per color point.

This is the way that professional software from post-production industry works. The same way as THX CineCube - FilmLight TruLight - LightSpace CMS.... separating profiling from calibrations.

Before 8-10 years when the 3D LUT Calibrations started at professional industry, they tested various methods and they found that separating profiling from calibration as the above 3 ''defacto'' professional software solutions are using had the most accurate results.
post #170 of 253
I have a question smile.gif
If the lut is made by measuring the display as it is, and the lut is made from that, how do you know the displays reaction to the lut? Do you measure the end result? What I mean is, if you measure 4, and it needs to be 8, and you make the lut +4, how do you know the display accepts this +4 and doesnt do a +2 or +6? As I understand it all displays react differently due to their hardware and software.
post #171 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

You are little confused about how LightSpace works.

LightSpace uses ''Global Corretion'', it measures each color point only one time during display profiling (to know the full capabilities of the display) and after that it creates the total correction or all the color points at once, It's not measuring each color point one by one and using real-time correction trying to fix each one-by-one taking 2-3 measurements per color point.

This is the way that professional software from post-production industry works. The same way as THX CineCube - FilmLight TruLight - LightSpace CMS.... separating profiling from calibrations.

Before 8-10 years when the 3D LUT Calibrations started at professional industry, they tested various methods and they found that separating profiling from calibration as the above 3 ''defacto'' professional software solutions are using had the most accurate results.

Exactly what you described is my understanding how LS works. But this doesn´t answer my simple question.

To make a long story short:
I think your statement, that the calibration of a point in the cube interacts with any other point in the cube is wrong!
post #172 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredman2005 View Post


Exactly what you described is my understanding how LS works. But this doesn´t answer my simple question.

To make a long story short:
I think your statement, that the calibration of a point in the cube interacts with any other point in the cube is wrong!

There is a lot of misinformation and bluster in this thread but the short answer to your question is that the eecolor properly implements the LUT as you describe, a correction to one point (node) in the cube will only affect that point in color space and the modification will "disappear" gradually via spline interpolation at the next node if it is not modified. It is a strictly nearest neighbor local modification and all LS does is calculate the modification required at each of the 65^3 nodal points to correct color errors for your chosen source space.
post #173 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredman2005 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

You are little confused about how LightSpace works.

LightSpace uses ''Global Corretion'', it measures each color point only one time during display profiling (to know the full capabilities of the display) and after that it creates the total correction or all the color points at once, It's not measuring each color point one by one and using real-time correction trying to fix each one-by-one taking 2-3 measurements per color point.

This is the way that professional software from post-production industry works. The same way as THX CineCube - FilmLight TruLight - LightSpace CMS.... separating profiling from calibrations.

Before 8-10 years when the 3D LUT Calibrations started at professional industry, they tested various methods and they found that separating profiling from calibration as the above 3 ''defacto'' professional software solutions are using had the most accurate results.

Exactly what you described is my understanding how LS works. But this doesn´t answer my simple question.

To make a long story short:
I think your statement, that the calibration of a point in the cube interacts with any other point in the cube is wrong!

Seems that again you haven't understand....

If you run a 5-Point Cube Calibration With CalMAN and Lumagen, the Calibration will finish with some charts , Right?

You will have dE Charts for Grayscale and Cube (4-Step Saturation), Right?

Now run a new Grayscale and Saturation Run and compare the 2 results.... They are different..... That means that each correction one/by/one is interacts with other color points...

Am I Clear? Experience it yourself..
post #174 of 253
how does a post calibration run by LS compare to a post calibration run by CalMAN if you use the 24 patch color checker from CalMAN?
post #175 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

how does a post calibration run by LS compare to a post calibration run by CalMAN if you use the 24 patch color checker from CalMAN?



Black Reading Failed @ My KURO with ID3....
Think also that I have runned 2 different meter profilings (Colorimeter from Spectro) from 2 different softwares.
post #176 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post


Speed means 1 reading per color point, not 2-3 reading per color point.

In real world for you, how long does it take for you to run a 4913 color point (17-Point Cube) profiling on your non calibrated Kuro and LS?
And what meter (for the actual 4912 color point reads) and meters if any (for profiling) are you using??

ss
post #177 of 253
Hi Ted

thanks for the assumable that is from LS is there a chart from a post CalMAN calibration?
post #178 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

how does a post calibration run by LS compare to a post calibration run by CalMAN if you use the 24 patch color checker from CalMAN?

Both programs (and ArgyllCMS) will generate residual errors below the threshold of human perception for this test. However, LS advocates will argue that this is not the whole story regarding performance and that one would need to measure many more colors, 17^3?, who knows - I'm sure they'd make-up some other counter argument if you tried this and showed what I would expect to be the same answer that you obtained with the color checker patterns. They try to make it seem daunting and impossibly complicated to properly implement a 3D look-up table and that they have the best solution, but it's pure propaganda (FUD). Transforming the measurements into correction factors for use in the hardware LUT follows well-known color space transformations, there is no secret sauce, each implementation will get you to the same end-point which as I said is well below the threshold of human perception. There is one clear advantage to the LS and ArgyllCMS implementation and that is that once the measurements are complete you do not have to remeasure to generate LUTs for different sources (Rec709, Rec601, various transfer functions etc.)
post #179 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

Hi Ted

thanks for the assumable that is from LS is there a chart from a post CalMAN calibration?

This Chart is from a LightSpace's Produced LUT, measured later from CalMAN.

I have other Charts here also wink.gif
post #180 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Both programs (and ArgyllCMS) will generate residual errors below the threshold of human perception for this test. However, LS advocates will argue that this is not the whole story regarding performance and that one would need to measure many more colors, 17^3?, who knows - I'm sure they'd make-up some other counter argument if you tried this and showed what I would expect to be the same answer that you obtained with the color checker patterns. They try to make it seem daunting and impossibly complicated to properly implement a 3D look-up table and that they have the best solution, but it's pure propaganda (FUD). Transforming the measurements into correction factors for use in the hardware LUT follows well-known color space transformations, there is no secret sauce, each implementation will get you to the same end-point which as I said is well below the threshold of human perception. There is one clear advantage to the LS and ArgyllCMS implementation and that is that once the measurements are complete you do not have to remeasure to generate LUTs for different sources (Rec709, Rec601, various transfer functions etc.)

that is what I suspect, but would LOVE to see some stone cold facts about this.
I seems to me that calibration is turning in to why I stopped participating in HIFI threads in general.
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