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Pioneer Introduces First Batch of AV Receivers for 2013 - Page 2

post #31 of 61
3/6/13 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

I think the 1123 looks especially interesting, but if possible, I'd wait until I could read a couple of reviews.


Thanks Scott I will do that before I buy one.
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post #32 of 61
3/9/13 at 1:04pm
I'm also hoping for a more robust advanced MCACC. Nine fixed bands of eq with fixed width is extremely limiting, particularly given the power of DSP's these days.

I use the BFD for managing my subs, and if this cheap, old little piece of tech can manage to give 24 bands of eq per channel, each of which can be placed anywhere in the spectrum and can be adjusted to any width. How is Pioneer not able to advance their MCACC tech beyond where it's been for YEARS?

I'm a huge fan of Pioneer receivers and their SC-series in particular (I have three in the house), but this to me is a glaring point of stagnation.
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post #33 of 61
3/9/13 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Dave View Post

I'm also hoping for a more robust advanced MCACC. Nine fixed bands of eq with fixed width is extremely limiting, particularly given the power of DSP's these days.

I use the BFD for managing my subs, and if this cheap, old little piece of tech can manage to give 24 bands of eq per channel, each of which can be placed anywhere in the spectrum and can be adjusted to any width. How is Pioneer not able to advance their MCACC tech beyond where it's been for YEARS?

I'm a huge fan of Pioneer receivers and their SC-series in particular (I have three in the house), but this to me is a glaring point of stagnation.

What is BFD? 24 bands sound great, but how would you connect it. I'm looking to increase my setup to 7.4. There are only two subwoofer channels (left and right) on my TX-47 Pioneer Elite. I can see connecting the two front subs to their respective back subs by inputting the pre-out on the front subwoofers to the pre-in on the back subwoofers, but how would you connect an equalizer into this mix?

Also, self-powered subs have their own volume and 12db/octave cut off points. The only thing missing is signal delay because of different distances, and I haven't seen (doesn't mean there isn't one) an equalizer that would allow delay adjustment.

Floyd
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post #34 of 61
3/9/13 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

What is BFD? 24 bands sound great, but how would you connect it. I'm looking to increase my setup to 7.4. There are only two subwoofer channels (left and right) on my TX-47 Pioneer Elite. I can see connecting the two front subs to their respective back subs by inputting the pre-out on the front subwoofers to the pre-in on the back subwoofers, but how would you connect an equalizer into this mix?

Also, self-powered subs have their own volume and 12db/octave cut off points. The only thing missing is signal delay because of different distances, and I haven't seen (doesn't mean there isn't one) an equalizer that would allow delay adjustment.

Floyd

That's the Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro. It's one of several options used by DIY sub builders to handle EQ, although it can do more than just EQ subs.. If you check out the DIY section you can find out more about how to deal with 4 subs, some of those guys have up to 16 18" subs in their systems.
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post #35 of 61
3/9/13 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

What is BFD? 24 bands sound great, but how would you connect it. I'm looking to increase my setup to 7.4. There are only two subwoofer channels (left and right) on my TX-47 Pioneer Elite. I can see connecting the two front subs to their respective back subs by inputting the pre-out on the front subwoofers to the pre-in on the back subwoofers, but how would you connect an equalizer into this mix?

Also, self-powered subs have their own volume and 12db/octave cut off points. The only thing missing is signal delay because of different distances, and I haven't seen (doesn't mean there isn't one) an equalizer that would allow delay adjustment.

Floyd

BFD is the Behringer Feedback Destroyer (the old DSP1124P in my case) - one of it's purposes is to kill feedback in live presentations. But much more entertaining is as a digital 24-band parametric eq. (12 filters per channel if running two channel). You can independently adjust frequency, bandwidth and gain for each of those 12 points per channel, which gives phenomenal ability to tame room nodes and achieve exactly the curve you're looking for. Cost was under $200 (not sure about the newer models). The only downside is no adjustment below 20 Hz.

In my theatre I'm using the SC25, which just has one sub output. I've got three subs connected, and use the BFD's to roll out exactly the bass response I'm looking for. I just split the signal from the receiver, and then roll my two big subs through the BFD. In your case, you could use two BFD's to equalize them all, or if they're placed in pairs, just use one.

There are threads here and on other forums about using the BFD's in this way (how to measure and what adjustments to make). Results are SPECTACULAR! Which is why I'd like to see Pioneer increase their game in this area.

[edit]
oops - Mark beat me to it, so, ummm, yeah, what he said!
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post #36 of 61
3/9/13 at 3:41pm
Why Pioneer don't add BFD? Because that means they'll need to raise the price of their receivers by at least $150 in order to add that processing power and upgrade to a better microphone. Most of us here at AVS forum are willing to pay the extra but not the layperson.
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post #37 of 61
3/9/13 at 4:35pm
Agreed it would not be ideal for every model, but certainly would be welcomed on the higher-end Elite models. I also think they could do this for less than $150. The Behringer was only about that price, and it contains many items that are already present in the upper-end Pioneer models. They already have very robust DSP's that could easily perform the calculations, and they already do equalization and calibration, so it's primarily a matter of software and a better microphone. Very little if any additional hardware would be required.

It sure would be a great differentiator.

Hell, I'd buy an after-market solution that did the same for much more than $150, provided it did the job. I've already invested that price just to MEASURE, (a good microphone and USB MIDI), let alone actually make any adjustments.
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post #38 of 61
3/9/13 at 5:09pm
I forgot to press quote. This post is about the Behrenger Feedback Destroyer Pro post by imagic.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

I bought some 3pi Speaker Kits from Wayne Parham (Pi Speakers), and they turned out to be awesome. But, even he said that you get a big jump in diminishing returns after four subs.

He sells kits for subs, but they don't include amplifiers or crossover control. The better brands of subwoofer amplifiers are all class AB. That puzzles me a bit. What difference does it make having .001 THD at 10,000 Hz if everything above 80 Hz is rolled off?

Floyd
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post #39 of 61
3/9/13 at 5:36pm
Scott,
Any news on the Elite line? Anything exciting replacing the current SC-68?
If I had anything to say about it , here's what I would add.

1) USB DAC- I would give the ability to assign a HDMI port to this input so someone with a computer can use the HDMI to display the audio on the Monitor connected to the SC-68 or the new SC-78 if so called that.
2) Airplay - currently you can Airplay to the main zone meaning the theater zone , then add to zone 2 and 3. This is very annoying if someone is using the theater system and someone else wants to listen to Airplay music in one of the other zones. I currently use all zones of the SC-68. I have a Gym in my basement which is Zone 3 and I also have 6 other working rooms that are all zone 2. I use Airplay a lot and if someone is in the theater , I have to interrupt them for a minute until I get Airplay going , then add it to zone 3 lets say , then find out what they where using in the theater and switch back to it. Thats a huge hassle on something that could easily be corrected by adding in Airplay "Main zone " , "Zone 2 , "Zone 3". This way if someone is using the theater , they would never miss a beat when I want to go work out and use my music on my I phone.
Other then those 2 things the SC-68 is rock solid and a game changer if you ask me. I use the USB DAC as I have a nice starter library of High rez music from HD tracks.
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post #40 of 61
3/9/13 at 8:01pm
The MiniDSP is better than the BFD and can go all the way down to 2hz I believe. It also does 2, 4 , 6 or even 8 channels. The basic model is $80 or so, and REW can output an EQ file to it.

My Onkyo 818 can be had for somewhere around $800 and has better calibration features than the highest end Pioneer receivers. This shouldn't be the case.

http://www.minidsp.com/
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post #41 of 61
3/9/13 at 8:33pm
The Onkyo can do more in terms of EQ but not in more important stuff such as standing wave correction, phase (NOT polarity) adaptation plus the option to tweak the EQ after calibration.
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post #42 of 61
3/9/13 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The Onkyo can do more in terms of EQ but not in more important stuff such as standing wave correction, phase (NOT polarity) adaptation plus the option to tweak the EQ after calibration.
and that's where pioneer..steps ahead ..David it all comes down to sound quality ..after calibration..I go into the EQ..and set to my taste..it all comes down to sound quality..I had the dennon/and onkyo..but when it came the to what matters IMO..is sound quality..pioneer has it..
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post #43 of 61
3/10/13 at 6:14am
Agreed! That's why after years of receiver purchases and trying to move to different brands, I always ended up with Pioneer.
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post #44 of 61
3/10/13 at 7:38am
Probably sounds kind of silly, but when it comes to receivers I'm one of those brand loyalty guys. I've had 6 Pioneer's. The first I bought was a SX-750 in 1976. Still have it.
My grandfather was an Oldsmobile Man. I guess I'm a Pioneer Man.smile.gif
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post #45 of 61
3/10/13 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The Onkyo can do more in terms of EQ but not in more important stuff such as standing wave correction, phase (NOT polarity) adaptation plus the option to tweak the EQ after calibration.

But phase correction is more important down at the sub-mains crossover, near 80hz. I don't believe the Pioneer corrects at this frequency. Only down to 300hz. I may be incorrect on that though. It's true though, Audyssey doesn't allow a lot of user input after EQ is done. There are some workarounds though, for Phase, you can adjust it by manually changing the distance parameter of youf subwoofer by a foot or so to get it to blend with your mains at the crossover frequency. You can also change the location of the sub(s).

Of course you can do this with the Pioneer as well. I have found that the Audyssey did a better job of smoothing out my freqeuncy response than Pioneer. If Pioneer could handle the low frequency stuff, I would probably jump over to a class D elite model.
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post #46 of 61
3/10/13 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

The MiniDSP is better than the BFD and can go all the way down to 2hz I believe. It also does 2, 4 , 6 or even 8 channels. The basic model is $80 or so, and REW can output an EQ file to it.

http://www.minidsp.com/

wow - Thanks for that!
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post #47 of 61
3/10/13 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The Onkyo can do more in terms of EQ but not in more important stuff such as standing wave correction
Nothing special, covered by XT32 rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

phase (NOT polarity) adaptation
Time domain (Audyssey terms), phase adaptation (Pioneer terms) - both are the same thing, different words. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

plus the option to tweak the EQ after calibration.
This is what is really missing in Audyssey world. (Pro kit is too expensive for what it does).
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post #48 of 61
3/10/13 at 1:55pm
Do you think a 1222 replacement is coming?

Sent from my ThunderBolt using Tapatalk 2
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post #49 of 61
3/10/13 at 8:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis10 View Post

Scott,
Any news on the Elite line? Anything exciting replacing the current SC-68?
If I had anything to say about it , here's what I would add.

1) USB DAC- I would give the ability to assign a HDMI port to this input so someone with a computer can use the HDMI to display the audio on the Monitor connected to the SC-68 or the new SC-78 if so called that.
2) Airplay - currently you can Airplay to the main zone meaning the theater zone , then add to zone 2 and 3. This is very annoying if someone is using the theater system and someone else wants to listen to Airplay music in one of the other zones. I currently use all zones of the SC-68. I have a Gym in my basement which is Zone 3 and I also have 6 other working rooms that are all zone 2. I use Airplay a lot and if someone is in the theater , I have to interrupt them for a minute until I get Airplay going , then add it to zone 3 lets say , then find out what they where using in the theater and switch back to it. Thats a huge hassle on something that could easily be corrected by adding in Airplay "Main zone " , "Zone 2 , "Zone 3". This way if someone is using the theater , they would never miss a beat when I want to go work out and use my music on my I phone.
Other then those 2 things the SC-68 is rock solid and a game changer if you ask me. I use the USB DAC as I have a nice starter library of High rez music from HD tracks.

I have no news about the new Elite AVRs. I'll pass your comments on to Pioneer and see if they say anything.

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post #50 of 61
3/12/13 at 11:01pm
I guess I have not been paying close attention. Do they sell higher power Class AB A/V receivers also? Say 150W or above?
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post #51 of 61
4/19/13 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikkuranus View Post

I wonder if there AB class receivers will suffer the same as the 2012 models.
I had the Vsx 1122-k and the hdmi ports were all piss poorly soldered and caused audio and video to cut out periodically.

Incorrect it has nothing to do with the solder on the HDMI ports, it's and issue with the EDID being read by your crappy television.

http://nerddrivel.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/the-device-that-saved-my-home-theater/

Also to answer your question it does not look like the 2013 line is suffering from this issue, at least my VSX 1123-K is not.
My TV likes this receiver, and I no longer have flicker like I did with my HK AVR-2650.
Edited by Exist_To_Resist - 5/6/13 at 1:37pm
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post #52 of 61
4/19/13 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Nothing special, covered by XT32 rolleyes.gif
Time domain (Audyssey terms), phase adaptation (Pioneer terms) - both are the same thing, different words. rolleyes.gif

Are XT32 and Time Domain available at the above mentioned Pioneer pricing?
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post #53 of 61
4/19/13 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

But phase correction is more important down at the sub-mains crossover, near 80hz. I don't believe the Pioneer corrects at this frequency. Only down to 300hz. I may be incorrect on that though. It's true though, Audyssey doesn't allow a lot of user input after EQ is done. There are some workarounds though, for Phase, you can adjust it by manually changing the distance parameter of youf subwoofer by a foot or so to get it to blend with your mains at the crossover frequency. You can also change the location of the sub(s).

Of course you can do this with the Pioneer as well. I have found that the Audyssey did a better job of smoothing out my freqeuncy response than Pioneer. If Pioneer could handle the low frequency stuff, I would probably jump over to a class D elite model.

Pioneer does the full frequency phase correction but only in their top model such as SC-68. They call it "Full Band Phase Control"
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post #54 of 61
4/19/13 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

I have no news about the new Elite AVRs. I'll pass your comments on to Pioneer and see if they say anything.

Announcements for Elites usually done around mid-May / early June.
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post #55 of 61
4/19/13 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneertop View Post

and that's where pioneer..steps ahead ..David it all comes down to sound quality ..after calibration..I go into the EQ..and set to my taste..it all comes down to sound quality..I had the dennon/and onkyo..but when it came the to what matters IMO..is sound quality..pioneer has it..

Agreed! In the past 6 years or so, I've only clients that moved from Marantz / Denon / Onkyo / Bryston to Pioneer's top of the line receivers (and use them as pre-pro) but never from Pioneer to another brand. One client moved from Onkyo pre-pro to Pioneer SC-57 with Krell power amps, B&W 800D speakers all around and another client from Denon pre-pro to Pioneer SC-68 with McIntosh power amps, B&W 802D speakers all around.
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post #56 of 61
4/19/13 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Agreed! In the past 6 years or so, I've only clients that moved from Marantz / Denon / Onkyo / Bryston to Pioneer's top of the line receivers (and use them as pre-pro) but never from Pioneer to another brand. One client moved from Onkyo pre-pro to Pioneer SC-57 with Krell power amps, B&W 800D speakers all around and another client from Denon pre-pro to Pioneer SC-68 with McIntosh power amps, B&W 802D speakers all around.

I hardly ever hear of McIntosh amps anymore. Back in the day, they had really powerful amps with incredibly low distortion. Is this still true?

Floyd
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post #57 of 61
4/19/13 at 4:29pm
Quite honestly, my subjective opinion is that there is nothing McIntosh power amps that Parasound Halo series can't do. Now, the tube amps from McIntosh are of course the exception.
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post #58 of 61
4/20/13 at 4:02pm
Pioneer ..is enjoying grate..success ..in Europe.at the moment with there LX-SC line of AVR's every major AV magazine in Europe..and the UK are giving pioneer top marks...
Edited by pioneertop - 4/21/13 at 11:40am
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post #59 of 61
5/5/13 at 10:03am
Really seems like Pioneer skimps out big time on the amp section. Their flagship receiver is less than 40lbs, really?? I mean look at Onkyo's flagship, the 5010, that monster weighs just over 55lbs. with a Toroidal amp.
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post #60 of 61
5/5/13 at 10:24am
No, they haven't announced their flagship yet...the Elite series. The announcement usually comes in mid-May / beginning of June.
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