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More Bass Needed - Driver Options

post #1 of 18
3/5/13 at 1:00am
Thread Starter 
Hello all -
I recently completed a build of 2 separate sealed 5cuft (gross) boxes using Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18's and behringer inuke 6000dsp amp. I am not getting as much output as I would like and need to explore my options for adding more drivers. After EQing it sounds good at moderate volume levels but starts to distort, clip or bottom out when trying to get just a little more out of it by adding more gain or volume from the reciever or more power from the behringer. I have SVS PB-13 ultra I was auditioning and that was just about filling my missing hole. I am sending it back since it was lacking overall output and I did not care for sound quality as I started to push it. Damn god sub otherwise.

What I am looking for in adding drivers:
-I need more output below 20hz. I am pretty flat to 20hz but do start rolling off around 30hz without EQ. I have decent output down to 11hz.
-I only have 1 more spot in the room I can give up and can probably support about a 7 cu ft box maybe a little bigger.
-Should I go ported, sealed, dual, single, 15", 18" ect. I am ok with buying another amp if needed. TC sounds are still not off the table.


Basically need something that will fit the spot in the room and give me the most output.

Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks.
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post #2 of 18
3/5/13 at 4:48am
You are the first and only person that u have heard complain about the lack of output and extension from the HO18! Are you sure that you have everything hooked up right? You should be getting massive output? I would add another HO18 or two until satisfied. How big is your room?
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post #3 of 18
3/5/13 at 5:35am
Adding another pair of 18's and another amp will get you 6db as I'm sure you are aware.

With the Inuke 6k I assume you are running 1 sub on each channel for about 2kw each. That's quite a bit of "extra" headroom with the HO18 and enough power for a TC if you wanted to swap them out. That would get you 3 or 4 db, I would guess, and that's without adding another box to the room.

Or your could run 4 si 18 D4's off that amp w/ about 1kw each. Still, that would be no more than a 6db gain which is not huge.

So how open is the room and what are your budget constraints? What kind of mains power do you have available? Also, you mention the amp is clipping. Is the first clip light blinking on or all of them lit? Many pro amps start lighting the clip lights 6db (1/4 power) below the point of actually clipping.
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post #4 of 18
3/5/13 at 10:39am
You could just be a bass-head. I wasn't happy either until I had 8 18's in my room, which as nograveconcern mentioned is 12db louder than just 2 of them (as I scaled the amp-power by a factor of 8 as well).
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post #5 of 18
3/5/13 at 12:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

You are the first and only person that u have heard complain about the lack of output and extension from the HO18! Are you sure that you have everything hooked up right? You should be getting massive output? I would add another HO18 or two until satisfied. How big is your room?

Room is 16 x 16 x 7.5 with 2 openings. (I know bad room but there are worse.) I can close off the openings but it makes no difference that I can tell. I have a very bass hungry room. Everything is hooked up correctly and I have explored all my placement options. I think everything is working fine I just need more bass.
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post #6 of 18
3/5/13 at 12:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

Adding another pair of 18's and another amp will get you 6db as I'm sure you are aware.

With the Inuke 6k I assume you are running 1 sub on each channel for about 2kw each. That's quite a bit of "extra" headroom with the HO18 and enough power for a TC if you wanted to swap them out. That would get you 3 or 4 db, I would guess, and that's without adding another box to the room.

Or your could run 4 si 18 D4's off that amp w/ about 1kw each. Still, that would be no more than a 6db gain which is not huge.

So how open is the room and what are your budget constraints? What kind of mains power do you have available? Also, you mention the amp is clipping. Is the first clip light blinking on or all of them lit? Many pro amps start lighting the clip lights 6db (1/4 power) below the point of actually clipping.

Yes I am running 1 driver per channel so I am not amp limited. I am setting budget at $1500 which I know gets me a lot. I am running Yamaha RXA2010 amp that is supposed to be 140W per channel pushing Deftech bp 8060 towers.

I have had all clipping lights lit on both the BFD and the amp. Once I start to get close to clipping it really starts sounding distorted so I always back it off and would never run it anywhere near there. I have also ran it with just the amp and no BFD and get the same results.
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post #7 of 18
3/5/13 at 12:47pm
Thread Starter 
To be clear I think I am getting good output from what I have just not enough for what I want. Like I said a single ported 13.5 inch SVS PB13 ultra pretty much filled the missing gap but I didn't like how it sounded in the mid range as well as when I started driving it hard with 18's or by itself.
The 18's can get pretty loud but the quality starts to disappear quickly after a certain point.

So the ported SVS maybe was adding 3db? but maybe it was adding it to the right places?
Edited by brent_b_23 - 3/5/13 at 12:57pm
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post #8 of 18
3/5/13 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

Room is 16 x 16 x 7.5 with 2 openings. (I know bad room but there are worse.)

Are there? eek.gif That's pretty much a cube as far as wavelengths are concerned.

Well, to put it another way, a second NU6k + a second pair of 18HO's in a DO box will get you the same output that you have when you are lighting the clip lights, but it will be clean. Want more than that and you are looking at joining the 8 18 club.

How much have you played around with placement? Have you experimented with 1/4 wall placement or getting one speaker above the 1/2 way point of the room?
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post #9 of 18
3/5/13 at 1:05pm
Thread Starter 
I only have 1 wall that I was able to play with 1/4 placement. Best for output was opposed corners with rear corner 180 out of phase. I have a big spike around 40hz but everything else is pretty flat.
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post #10 of 18
3/5/13 at 1:14pm
Do you have anyway to post the spl levels from your seating position? I'm curious to see what levels you're getting.

I have a single sealed 18" HO with 1100Wrms and I am more than pleased. Though at the same time I can see how a second would really make an improvement.
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post #11 of 18
3/5/13 at 1:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Do you have anyway to post the spl levels from your seating position? I'm curious to see what levels you're getting.

I have a single sealed 18" HO with 1100Wrms and I am more than pleased. Though at the same time I can see how a second would really make an improvement.

Not accurately since I don't have a good meter to calibrate REW with. Going from 1 to 2 for me is pretty substantial.
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post #12 of 18
3/6/13 at 2:38pm
Thread Starter 
So when adding 2 more of the same 18" driver I can expect 6 more DB across the board or is it also really room dependent to a certain point? What about co-location that I keep seeing getting mentioned? I am thinking that a dual opposed would be my best bet.

I really only have the one spot that I have got left so I need to make it count that is why I was considering LMS drivers.
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post #13 of 18
3/6/13 at 2:45pm
When I read your post the first thing I thought is:
Add a dual-opposed 460HO box 7-8 cubic feet powered by another iNuke 6000. That should get you everything you want/need.

ETA: If you can, you should close off at least one opening, if not both. If you sealed both openings, you would probably find yourself with a lot more reinforcement down low.
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post #14 of 18
3/7/13 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

So when adding 2 more of the same 18" driver I can expect 6 more DB across the board or is it also really room dependent to a certain point? What about co-location that I keep seeing getting mentioned? I am thinking that a dual opposed would be my best bet.

I really only have the one spot that I have got left so I need to make it count that is why I was considering LMS drivers.

6db is the most you will see. Below the frequency that corresponds to your longest room dimension (35hz for you) you will have some loss due to lack of co-location. Above that frequency you will have a smoother response so at some frequencies you may see more than 6db and at others you would see less..
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post #15 of 18
3/7/13 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

6db is the most you will see. Below the frequency that corresponds to your longest room dimension (35hz for you) you will have some loss due to lack of co-location.
The two will fully mutually couple above the frequency where they're less than 1/4 wavelength apart, giving a gain of 6dB. Below that frequency you'll get as much as 6dB where they're not close to 180 degrees of out phase, subject to boundary interactions. The size of the room doesn't enter into it per se.

As to whether to stack (co-locate) or not, that depends on the size of the room. Where the room is two wavelengths or more in dimension direct radiation dominates response, so there stacking works best. If you don't stack you can end up with a power alley situation. But even at 40Hz two wavelengths is 56 feet, so you're talking about a really big room, making this a pro-sound concern, not HT. In HT sized rooms boundary effects dominate response, so you're less concerned with output and more concerned with smoothing room modes. Stacking doesn't do anything to smooth room modes, separating subs does, so in HT separating them is usually the better option.
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post #16 of 18
3/7/13 at 11:53am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the replies and the info.
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post #17 of 18
3/8/13 at 4:29am
Thread Starter 
I am leaning towards the dual opposed dayton 18's. If I run them as 8 ohm on the nu6000dsp I will never run into any excursion issues and should still have a decent gain in output over the pair I have now. That will send about 1200 real watts per channel and I guess if that is not enough then I will see about additional amp.
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post #18 of 18
3/8/13 at 6:13am
I'd stay with identical subs. Otherwise you end up with whatever is the weakest link in the chain limiting the final result. Placing them using the Harmon or Toole model should give the best possible results.
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