So are the internet direct brands really better than mass market manufacturers?

Nothing. No. But they have far lower marketing and distribution costs. If anything they might have higher profit margins. Since they don't have to share the sales proceeds with retailers they can sell direct at lower prices than they could through retailers. Good question. The company with the highest market share, and which claims better sound through research, spends less on research as a percentage of sales than any other major company. Where does the money go? Marketing, distribution, and profit. Lots of profit.

Some of these internet direct companies are run by enthusiasts rather than some huge conglomerate, so there is more motivation to have pride on the end product. These guys are also chasing after a more informed consumer, so they kind of have their own market and have to meet a different set of demands. They also save money by cutting out the middle man, ie the dealer network, that saves a lot of money. But mass market speaker producers do have more R&D resources, and they can and do make competitive and high performing speakers. Harman is known for making mass market speakers which can also be great, they have Infinity, Revel, and JBL. Klipsch can also make a good speaker, it owns the Energy brand. Pioneer owns the highly regarded TAD and have a very good budget line in the SP speakers. Polk's Lsi line is purported to be not horrible. Companies like Paradigm, B&W, KEF don't have as widespread of a presence as Polk or Klipsch, but they are large companies which leverage their resources to make good entry level stuff and terrific high end stuff.

This has the potential to create a heated debate. Let's try to keep it civil.

In short, there is no definitive answer to your question, because it depends on each manufacturer. Just because the ID business model "cuts out the middle man" doesn't mean their products will be superior. It is highly dependent on the products themselves, including design, drivers used, quality of parts/product, etc. The same applies to B&M. When you figure in discounts some B&M products are a fantastic value, offering a great performance vs. price ratio. Again, it depends on the quality of the product, though. Just because it is ID or is a discounted B&M product doesn't mean it'll sound good. You need to listen in order to determine if performance justifies the asking price. Aesthetics also come into play for many consumers.

Most important of all, the answer to your question is highly dependent on the individual. There will not be a definitive answer to your question because this hobby is too subjective. Period. You can (and should) use objective measurements to help weed out the poor designs, but even the measurements that are available to the public are not as thorough as they should be. If only every manufacturer had a measurement standard that they were required to meet and include with their products...

ProfD...

Honestly this topic has been beat to death.

Nothing makes ID speakers sound better than mass distribution speakers.

Huge argument of economies of scale with large companies vs. no middleman with ID companies is a wash or not.

Customer service for most successful ID companies is generally more responsive than larger mass distributed companies but this is a big generalization.

Since ID companies have a smaller audience they can target their products in a more pin-point manner instead of making compromises to cater to largest group of people.
(Huge generalization that is largely unproveable as well.)

The biggest thing most of the ID companies do is allow fairly generous in-home trials. For mass distribution you are dependent on the reseller...who policies also vary widely.

As for R&D...if R&D really produced a sound vastly superior to what is available to the DIYers and small ID company then these businesses would not exist. Enough R&D exists for the individual componets and enough DIY enthusists help each other in testing that this is somewhat of a wash as well.

That being said...although the cost of componets do not necessarily = value...the sum of the componets of a speaker must be greater than its parts to create a well integrated speaker (example NHT Absolute Zeros are parts are worth only a few dollars as individual parts)...they are somewhat an indicator of "value"

Although many of these parts are proprietary and can not be measured...some like in the Philharmonic's are openly sourced and the cost of the parts + labor makes generally make the speakers a less than break even proposition even for DIYers...or close enough they would not want to go down that road except for pure enjoyment of building to build.

Bottom Line -- Your ears depict value. There is no clear winner from ID to mass distribution. We enthusiasts like to support small businesses that produce good products but there are plenty of great mass distributed products.

All that being said...taking all speakers as a whole... Generally an ID speaker compromises less, has more expensive componet parts, and products greater value speaker than ALL mass market speakers -- taken as a whole. Once you start comparing speaker A to speaker B that all gets thrown out the window.

If you browse through the dozens of "recommendation" threads, the ID companies are almost always brought up first. Somebody new to this hobby might come to the (incorrect) conclusion that ID brands are inherently superior in every way to their "mass market" brothers. The bottom line is that there are great (and not so great) products and values in both the ID world and from the larger companies. IMO you're doing yourself a big disservice if you automatically exclude one or the other.

This. While the ID business model potentially allows for significantly greater value for consumers (mitigated by the economies of scale that larger manufacturers often enjoy), it is up to the individual business to decide how to leverage this advantage, and some of them benefit the customer more than others. As for why some ID companies have such a following, in many cases it is because the owner of the company is a fellow enthusiast, is fairly accessible, and in some cases is also the designer of the speakers, which gives them credibility. On the other hand, sometimes with mass market items, there are heavily discounted clearance sales that tip the balance of value toward the major traditional companies.

Only if they choose to, individually. They could also take a higher profit margin while still passing some of the benefits of the ID model on to their customers--if they choose to. Or, like any other business, they could rest on their laurels, take full advantage of the hype of the ID model, and take large profit margins--if they choose to.

It's just like with the ID companies--if a traditional speaker manufacturer chooses to make the best sounding speaker they can for the least amount of cost for the consumer, they could do it, but that's a huge IF. As a case in point, Pioneer did crap regarding their mass market speakers for many years until they decided one day to get their top designer to make the highest-value budget speakers he could, and judging the speakers for myself, I think he's done a great job (his second attempt being MUCH better than the first, in my opinion). Now let's look at Bose, specifically their 5.1 home theater systems that so many here loathe. They obviously don't spend much on R&D (mostly they spend to advertise their nonexistent R&D regarding their 5.1 systems) because they don't have to--most people think that their products are the best anyway, so there is no business case for R&D. Like the ID companies, and people for that matter, everything depends on the individual and what they choose to do.

Many DIYers do far more R&D than most speaker companies. The design and testing tools they have at their disposal are no less sophisticated than those used by the average professional loudspeaker designer. I know that to be true because I am a professional loudspeaker designer.

As for in-house R&D, you'd be surprised how many speaker companies don't do any. Instead of having engineers of their own on staff, and having to own or rent their own facilities, they hire independent designers. Like me. Chances are far higher that a small ID company will have engineers on staff, because those engineers own the company, guys like Dr. Hsu and Mark Seaton.

The only market segment where DIY and ID is not at least the equal of commercial R&D departments is in the drivers. You really need a factory to do driver R&D. But no one maintains a monopoly on driver technology, anything that any speaker manufacturer has access to the DIYer and ID company does as well.
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 3/5/13 at 3:24pm

In my opinion nothing makes them better. For some reason folks think this is the case, no middle-man but I personally have not seen it. I only have experience with two IDs. One was dreadful to me. I believe the worst speaker I have ever owned. The public raved- I say ugh. The second was okay. It was not until I moved to a mainstream brand that I found my own nirvana.

I will also say, and hardly ever mentioned is the fact that what I have seen is resale for most of these IDs is non-existant. You think you are saving money up front but in my case I junked them at a yardsale for near give-away prices. This is fine but in most cases a known/name brand will be able to be sold on Audiogon or other sites more easily if you ever plan to upgrade.

I have seen nothing that would make me want to jump to ID again. There is one known higher level of ID speaker praised here and to me way too artisian looking. Looks more like a garage type construction over a nice true factory build. Pretty finish if you like that look. Once again, nothing wrong with that for many here and they are supposed to sound quite nice!

Works for some and that's okay. Not for me. Resale non-existant. In the end though, it's what you are happy with. We are after the same thing and sometimes it takes starting with Bose, then ID then whatever the next step is for you. Most of us do not buy once and done.You should put some thought into "okay, ready to upgrade. What will I do with these now" before you buy. They could become a yardsale fixture and that is okay too if you know it going in. That was a long time ago for me and now no big deal. Part of the learning.

I think I am finally done, maybe? but it cost a bit of money upgrading and learning to trust myself and not what other people post is the best value and to move away from the ID herd. Getting off my ass and seeking out speakers/gear I am interested in and away from the computer has given me the greatest gains. Except I did buy my blu-ray player based on some reviews and it's not the one you maybe thinking of..

I always love "it sounds better than speakers three times the cost" really? alrighty then....

Rick
Edited by Mr.SoftDome - 3/5/13 at 11:35am

The idea that direct-to-customer products are better is a myth. ..It persists because it fits in with the connoisseur ethos of the "audiophile", a group of people who like to see themselves as supremely knowledgeable and therefore clued-in to the obscure and overlooked brands. In short, many chose to look down their noses at the products made by large companies simply because they are too readily available and well known.

I can think of MANY reasons why large companies can produce better speakers (all related to economies of scale, access to better R&D, etc.) but struggle to imagine any advantage enjoyed by smaller companies.
Edited by syd123 - 3/5/13 at 1:17pm

Most ID speaker companies are much better than Bose.

Jokes aside, it doesn't matter if the speakers are ID or BM. Great sounding speakers will sound great, great measuring speakers will measure great regardless of how they are sold.

One place you typically do get a better value out of ID is subwoofers. Rythmik, Power Sound Audio, Outlaw Audio, HSU, SVS Sound--those companies sell subs that almost always equal or beat out subwoofers in price/performance that are much higher priced MSRP from traditional speaker companies.

Economies of scale is certainly an advantage, but larger companies also a lot more to deal with than ID companies. Sales reps, distribution, marketing, support, etc.

While I am a proponent of ID, I certainly know it is not for everyone. With stuff I have heard, I think some ID companies provide better value. Also, B&M brands offer pretty much the same great value when there are good sale prices/sell offs. It is good to have choices

I offer a slightly different perspective. I spent several months thinking I needed to upgrade from a home theater setup that I was perfectly happy with for 12 years. I auditioned to the tune of maybe a thousand miles driven, covering 15 or so different models from about 8 manufacturers with a budget that topped out at $5k and found nothing worth upgrading to. Then I discovered Totem Acoustic (is that ID or B&M? A hybrid maybe?), was just about ready to buy, and came here to do some valuable on my ass research. Much to my surprise, there were ID designers who actually participated in conversations, answered questions objectively without actively selling their products or discouraging critical investigation. I was impressed - they were willing to work with me, educate me, put up with my quirks and doubts. I'd never seen anyone from B&W, Paradigm, PSB, Martin Logan do this, and I'll bet few others have either. I was talking to "the man", not some pimple-face at Best Buy.

Long story short, I didn't buy the Totems. I learned a lot from speaker designers and the many forum members who helped educate me, I trusted people rather than marketing material, and it paid off. I even got a custom, perfectly matched center-channel speaker built because what was offered didn't quite fit into the entertainment center I'd just had made. Struggle no more, there's at least one advantage.

I bought my speakers from a human, not a label. It suited me better. It was about the adventure, the interaction with people, my satisfaction of the overall experience, the confidence that I made the right decision, and most importantly, that I'm loving my choice every day. The next time, who knows? One thing is for sure, I won't limit my choices by looking down my nose and dismissing any of the options based only on the familiarity - or lack thereof - of the brand.

Funny you mention Totem as I really like the brand and would love to hear their latest monitor Amber.

I am really glad this worked out for you and that is what counts. Also there are more places to buy then Magnolia/Best Buy.

It's great your ID made a custom center for you due to size of your rack. My concerns going that direction would be how do you perform chamber testing on a one off? CAD drawings and engineering testing? There just can't be a lot of engineering that goes into a one off build to order but its awesome they did this for you.

There are still some good stores around that can help educate and not all of them are Best Buy kids. In fact my favorite shop in San Francisco is a bunch of passionate guys in blue jeans that just love music. Great to hear them talk about turntables as I am clueless but it isn't out the equation that I go vinyl one day.

Thanks for your perspective on a good ID experience.

Rick

Actually, I've found just the opposite to be true. I've been scorned on this very forum for owning Salk Speakers although it has been a few years ago.
Most of the derision came from big buck speaker owners, Wilson Audio, etc. and the subject of the thread wasn't even about speakers.

I think as Nethawk posted, smaller ID companies can often offer custom tailored speakers that larger companies just can't provide because their business model is different.
I'm of the opinion that more choices are always better. If people want to be elitist they can certainly feel that way but in my experience the people who buy from ID guys like the 1-on-1 service they receive and the products they buy.
Simple really.
Many of the ID guys actively participate in small regional audio GTGs where prospective customers can listen to their products, meet the people behind the products and have a great time.
It's a pretty cool scene man.

In this day of modern technology you don't need an anechoic chamber to design a great product. It's the 21st Century now.

Yes it is but you can't just slap some wood together based on a size request cut some holes drop-in some drivers and prey.

I still say the major players have a hands down advantage in engineering, design quality etc.

It may be the 21st century but I didn't know testing and engineering were obsolete. At least that is what my place of employment tells me.

Rick

LOL, of course testing and engineering aren't obsolete; I don't think anyone thinks that. I doubt the company that built the custom center just threw something together and hoped the future owner would like it. I see what you're saying, though. Right now I doubt anyone can compete with the likes of someone like Harman in regards to R&D and engineering, but that doesn't mean they can't engineer a fantastic product.

Below is the on-axis anechoic response measurement for the center channel speaker. Note that because of short measurement window frequencies below 200Hz don't make it. The frequency response is 51Hz–22kHz.

If this is what prayer does, I need to rethink how I spend my Sundays.

Lets see the 15, 30, and 45 degree off-axis horizontal response before we start praising the lord.

I assume that's a measurement done with close mic'ing so that the 85dB nominal level represents the SPL at some very close distance.
That's interesting too, but what's the FR behavior look like when it's 85 dB at the listening position which may be 2 or 3 meters. For that matter what does it look like when it's 95 dB? There's an awful lot FR curves that are trotted out to the masses that because of the way they were done that don't show the drivers breaking up when they're pushed. This seems to be equally true for both smaller and mega companies.

In the horse and buggy days you didn't need an anechoic chamber either. A spot in your backyard 50 feet away from a building or wall is an anechoic 'chamber'. The only reason for the development of anechoic chambers was to allow testing in urban areas or busy rural areas, like college campuses. Arguably the world's best engineered speakers come from Danley Sound Labs. They do their testing outdoors. +1. That's where most centers have problems. How many of them have you designed speakers for? In many cases todays 'major players' are Emperors who are naked as a jaybird. I could tell you which of them have no engineering departments, but only by violating non-disclosure agreements. Signing one is the first thing you do when negotiating a design contract, mainly so that they don't have it revealed that they don't do their own design work.

Exactly. Passing judgement on a company because it isn't a giant conglomerate with their own anechoic chamber is not wise. There are many "small" audio companies that offer fantastic products. Measurements and listening sessions will determine if one of their products suits your needs.

Well said.

One thing the above post has in common with the horse in buggy days is that back then, people also had to wade through a bunch of crap in the street. It reminds me of the Wizard behind the curtain in Oz.

- World's best engineered speakers come from Danley Sound Labs? That's a dangerously specific blanket statement to stand behind.

- The primary reason you sign non-disclosure agreements isn't because you're some speaker wizard that companies want hidden away from the world's eyes. It's because companies do not want the designs they are paying someone to work on on their behalf to be sold or sourced to competitors, nor do they want their competitors to know who they hire or what they are working on. You can call technical support, marketing, sales, or a sales rep of ANY speaker manufacturer and ask if they engineer their own speakers, drivers, cabinets, etc. in-house and find any of this info out with even just modest effort (like, a phone call). In-house or not is not something that companies actively try to hide on a regular basis. It's almost not even a point of discussion any more for manufacturers one way or the other.

-Also, your statement in post #8 in this thread that "Many DIYers do far more R&D than most speaker companies." to be a gross distortion of the definitions of DIY and "Many". The back half of that referring to testing tools fails to take into consideration of time on task, manpower, financial resources, and professional expertise gained through practical experience. This essentially gives all merit to tools and testing equipment and no weight to talent or ability, among many other variables that go into creating - ground up - a proper loudspeaker.

If it sounds like I'm a little honked off it's because I take exception to specifically vague, unqualified statements from someone who is a professional, which I do not question you ARE. Someone reading your posts in this thread might swallow what you are saying hook line and sinker and make some bad decisions rather than actually understand that while SOME of what you're saying might be true in SOME perspectives or instances, it is not indicative of anything average or even remotely (sorry, but that's the truth) true.

I think you would need an anechoic chamber to do that. This particular measurement was taken at the maximum distance consistent with reasonable resolution, and at the maixumum input level Praxis can deliver without overloading. If you were in the room, the test signal (a very rapid since wave sweep) would be unpleasantly loud. The 85dB reading doesn't translate into anything you can relate to--that's not your standard sensitivity reading. The frequency response at 3 to 3.5 meters will actually be smoother than shown, since the design was optimized for that listening distance, not 1 meter. As for off axis response, this is a horizontal MTM. As you move further and further off axis, there will be comb filtering between the woofers at around 1500 Hz, and a second dip at the crossover frequency (2500 Hz) as the two woovers and the tweeter move out of phase. The MTM configuration works best on axis, or near that.

This wasn't meant to single you out Dennis but rather a general comment that may apply to a wide range of FR measurements. Do you recall just what was the distance you used in that particular measurement? Further, can you comment on the capabilities of close mic measurements at being able to discern driver break up?

. The measuring distance was about 42". You use high level harmonic distortion measurements to test for driver breakup. If there aren't any problems, there won't be any in the frequency domain. I try to get up to a 95 dB level for THD, although that's not always possible. I don't think this is a serious issue in speaker testing, as long as distortion is also measured.

I didn't realize how much of this was going on, but not surprised.

I wonder, too, whether or not some design at the budget audio level is coming out of Chinese factories instead of from the companies themselves. Sort of "what can you make for us cheap queries," that result in a product that the company rebadges as their own with only minor changes. Sort of the way Emotiva Pro Airmotivs seem to be Chinese QMS audio speakers with only a minor update.

Fair enough, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Mine is based solely on what I know to be factual as a result of doing what I do for a living. There is no uninformed conjecture. When I don't know for a fact exactly what I'm talking about I don't say anything.
You can give a Chinese factory your specs and they'll build it to a 'T'. Or you can choose something they already have and they'll put your name on it. There's no shortage of items to choose from. This is one source, and there are dozens; if not hundreds, more like it:
http://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/Professional_Loudspeaker.html
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 3/6/13 at 9:50am