Impressions of the WSR DTheater Festival - Page 2  

The reviews sound about what I would expect considering the setup used for comparision.

I'm not sure unconverting the dvd was useful for comparision. It doesn't seem relevent, Since, while many people here can upconvert and have a display capable of displaying the dvd's at those resolutions. I would say that most people even those buying an jvc hd deck don't, or would not; especailly if this thing ever sell well.. ( wishful thinking i supose) Anyway, An out of the box comparision of a dvd player and the jvc would be more of a real world situation in my mind.

Also just like dvds, hd tapes will vary depending of many factors, From the sources look and feel -- to the transfer process.

If you could have either free of charge, which one would you take dvds displayed at 840p or the jvc deck. I'm interested would anyone at the demonstraition opt the dvds at 840p

-tony

Regarding those who found some titles softer on tape than DVD, could it be lack of EE on the tape? But I have a problem with a paragraph in the U-571 review (Issue 59 p. 74):
Although the U-571 tape might exhibit perfectly natural (which I take to mean filmic) edges, the writer seems to imply much more, namely that edge enhancement won't be a dreaded curse (or won't exist at all) in any D-Theater release. Methinks this will come back to haunt.

I have not seen D-VHS to date, just thinking out loud.

Regarding comments from Saturday's sessions, all of Sunday's sessions are in fact being run as 480P straight out of the DVD player vs. 1080i from the D-Theater (again, with no video processing). As the owner of the market research company that's been invited to moderate the discussion sessions, it wouldn't be fair of me to comment on the demos. But I would encourage anyone who attended on Sunday to add their observations to those already posted.

Who said this? If there is even the most remote possibility that this will occur, or if this capability is built into the unit I just bought, I'll most likely return it. I have about 20 days left. No way will I pay JVC over a grand or the studios for their HD tapes only to have the picture downrezed when output through the component outs.

Someone from JVC or the studios better open their mouths on this forum or they might lose my business and perhaps many others.



Along these lines, following is something I found on another forum. It's a response from Pioneer to a question about obsoleting all those HD sets that accept only analog inputs. I know it refers to those signals the FCC controls, but it makes one wonder just how far Hollywood will go to screw us while almost assuredly not doing enough to stop the real pirates.

Why in God's name didn't they just set up two 65" Pioneers or two 73" Mitsubishi RPTV's and have DVD on the left and D-theater on the right? Now THAT would clearly show the differences.

According to senior reps from JVC, for the life of their HMDH30000, there will be no downrezzing of analog HD output on D-Theater tapes.

1080p DVD vs. D-Theater, sorry, as Ken pointed out, it's more than just pixels that matter.

Downrezzing the outputs, that has been built into the JVC from day 1. If in the future studios are worried about piracy, when units are offered with DVI (or whatever *******ized interface), studios can *optionally* down rez the analog outs. This is software specific. So your tapes bought today are fine, but 3 years from now, if Fox releases Star Wars (e.g.), they could potentially disable the analog outputs for that tape only (and not for all films). that was one of the 'appealing' features of D-Theater from what I understand. I wouldn't worry about that anytime soon. Don't forget, your OTA receiver can also be disabled in this manner (DTC-100 anyone)

And, one of the members in the recorders forum clearly pointed out the obscene amount of edge enhancement in Joe Kanes tapes. Even I saw it, so just because HD doesn't mean edge enhancement doesn't exist.

I attended the Sunday morning session. Some quick thoughts. The first part of the session was a comparison of U-571 D-Theater, DB 5 tape, and DVD. Those in the back of the room couldn't tell a big difference between the detail of the D-Theater tape and the upconverted DVD (or the DB 5 tape), but that was not surprising. The distance was simply too great. But even from that distance there was a big difference in the color--the D-Theater tape looked much more natural than the DVD, with deeper blacks and more realistic color. And, from the first row, there was a huge difference in the detail as well. The only other D-Theater movie shown was Terminator 2, but the DVD version was not shown for comparison. Terminator 2 was not as impressive as U-571. I know memory can fill in gaps, but I recall Terminator 2 upconverted to 960p to look about as good as the D-Theater. When my system is up and running in a few weeks (major upgrade time) I'll have to do a comparison.

I heard the JVC reps say that there would be no down-rezing via the component outputs, period. They did acknowledge, however, that content providers could make it impossible to record hi-def by down-rezing the output of hi-def decoders.

During the 9AM session on Saturday, I posed the question directly to the rep from JVC in front of the audience at the round table discussion. He did confirm that the 30k analog component outputs could be downrezzed to 480p by means of a properly identified video tape. However, he did say that isn't the case with the current batch of tapes being released.

Oops, I meant D5, not DB5 (maybe I was thinking about an Aston Martin). When I asked the JVC rep about downrezing via the component output, he said it could not and would not happen with D-Theater tapes--because the studios were comfortable with the encrypting system. If they weren't comfortable, they wouldn't release them in the first place. I guess some studio could issue tapes that were only 480p to begin with, but that wouldn't be down-rezing. I hope his answer is correct.

That must have been said in other than the Saturday 9am session. The JVC rep answered the question from me, first one on one, and then in front of the round table discussion. I'm not sure what "life of their HMDH30000" means exactly (does it mean till each one out there dies, till the next generation hits the market, or what?), but he told us that the analog outputs could be downrezzed via the tape, but the current batch of releases would not be capable of doing so.

His answer to me was the same both times I asked. The first time, because it was key to my buying decision, the second time I asked was to be sure I'd heard what I heard.

I'd love to be wrong on this, but I wouldn't state it in a public forum if I hadn't heard it from the source and publically.

I would suggest calling JVC and confirming for yourself before returning it. I can only tell you what I was told by their rep. at the Saturday 9AM session, both one on one and in the public round table discussion. I'd love to be wrong on this.....but I can only go by what I heard.

Dave, I have no doubt that you accurately conveyed what you heard, particularly since it was in answer to a question that was of significant concern to you. But I also heard the remark that there would be no down-rezing through the component output. There is obviously some confusion. Does it matter if we are talking about something that might happen in three years? Not to me. The D-Theater is a temporary solution anyway--until hi-def DVD in three to five years. My fear isn't down-rezing. It's getting enough titles in the market to make it worthwhile. I'm willing (in fact, already did) to take the risk.

I decided at the last minute to travel to Temecula to try to get in to the 2 PM Saturday session. I dragged along a friend of mine who is not a HT enthusiast. The staff was friendly and suggested that we come back just before 2. When we came back we were told they had two seats available.

As described earlier their Holosonic theater was cramped and the metal patio chairs uncomfortable. It just wasn’t designed for a crowd that large. I felt down right claustrophobic.

Three over-sized plush chairs remained “reservedâ€. The center one, of course, was “the sweet spotâ€. Gary announced that three lucky participants would get to sit in those coveted seats. So they had a drawing for the “sweet spot†first, and they picked my friend, the non-HT enthusiast! I was so envious, but just for a moment, because then they picked my name for the second seat!

Those chairs were mounted on a $20,000 shaker platform. This powerful low frequency transducer device was awesome. Watching U571, (even in 840P) I felt like I was in the movie. That thing had us “feeling†the explosions and violent gyrations of the struggling U-boat. I was sweating.

Even though some of the content we saw was stunning, I’m not ready to take the plunge. If money was no object for me, sure I’d love to have another toy. But with limited titles and releases, participation from the studios questionable, the varied picture quality, I think this product may be limited to the ultra-enthusiasts which isn’t enough to drive the market. IMHO

I’m also tired of investing in HT equipment only to find out that some of my components (and even my TV) could be obsolete before they even get dusty. And another component cable device to work into my set-up...

It was a treat to see this presentation in WSR’s state of the art home theater setting. But perhaps they could also sponsor several home demonstrations and publish those results. A limited number of volunteer enthusiasts could compare real world equipment (no scalers) in real and varied HT environments. Just a thought.

Larry

I might reconsider my purchasing decision if someone from JVC would tell me that the DTheater tapes for the next three years would be guaranteed not to be downrezzed via analog output. All I heard was that the current batch of tapes would not be. I did get the feeling that content quantity wouldn't be an issue on the DTheater format, but I didn't get any kind of assurances regarding downrezzing possibilities other than referring to the current batch being released.

I made the comment in the forum that I thought this was a good "bridge product" till the advent of an optical format, and that I was willing to invest in it. But not knowing the outcome of the FireWire, DVI/HDCP mess, and how that'll pertain to my Mits, I'm not willing to invest in something that MAY not give me full HD resolution into the analog inputs of my set during the "bridge" period.

I know from similar past experiences that the odds of getting to someone who was knowledgeable and honest about this issue is small.

From what I've read, JVC is reading this forum. Let JVC not be afraid to join this forum and have a dialogue with us about this issue and whatever else we want to discuss. We are the target market for the 30K. They should talk to us. If they don't and people don't buy because of this issue, JVC has no one to blame but themselves.

What's pretty funny about this is Joe Kane is supposed to be THE video guru. So why would he commit one of the cardinal sins of video, edge enhancement? Strange, very strange.

O.K., that's two people that heard this and one who heard the opposite at a different session. Let's please put this one to rest! Does anyone have the definitive answer? If tapes that do this in the future are identified, I can't imagine ANYONE that would buy it with this equipment.

To Joe's credit he did say about a million times (literally) that what we saw was not up to his standards and that he would be releasing his final product only when a sufficient editing system was constructed. When someone pointed out the edge enhancement on his material he just hung his head and nodded. Unfortunately he is waiting for technology to catch up to him. I'm sure his end result will be top notch.

One more thing. Not a single audio or video dropout during the entire presentation. That was my primary concern.

Am I wrong or is the reason D-threater was used is to provide Copy Protection over anolog and firewire outputs; if so the likely hood of them down rezzing the anolog out puts is low I would imagine. Unless of course D-threater is defeated.. If my understanding is correct I'm not that worried.

Tho if D-theater does not protect the anolog outputs I guess I too would be worried about down rezzing and probably won't buy in. I know they aren't alot of anolog records, but Hollywood is a parinoid place.
-tony

My answer didn't come from the WSR event, but from what I remember, it was buried in one of the many press releases for D-Theater just before the 30000u launched in the U.S.

Maybe we should dig up the press releases. I think many people are getting confused by down-rezzing via software specific (specific tapes) vs. down-rezzing your unit indefinitely for all software titles.

Hi All,
I have done some research on D-Theater.
1) D-Theater decoder/decryption occurs inside of JVC D-VHS deck.
2) The MPEG data stream transmitted out of the Firewire port does not contain any other Copy-Protection then 5C. The Copy Never Flag is set on these transfers.
3) Mitsubishi, Sony HDTVs can display D-Theater movies when the JVC D-VHS is connected using the Firewire interfaces.
4) There is no special encryption on the componant video outputs.

All is all the D-Theater is a JVC proprietary copy-protection that prevents the playback of these tapes on any other D-VHS VCRs. D-Theater is just pure stupid.

Thanks Bruce


If you're correct it is stupid and in my opinion should not be supported, And is apperently nothing more then away for jvc to try and corner the dhvs market, and/or sell licenses for d-theater; by enlisting content providers to support media and decks useing this proprietory standard.

I guess was wrong thinking d-theater provided CP over anolog; so now I am worried in the future down-rezing of the anolog outs is quite possible.... Hmmm makes me think more then twicwe about not buying a deck

-tony

Bruce,
If the D-Theater encryption simply prevents the tapes from being played on non-JVC decks, why are the studios going along with it? Why limit the market, unless they are getting some type of copy protection?

Look, everyone has a risk threshold. With the soon to be released Samsung STB (the protoptype of which was used to record Leno for playback at the WSR festival), the JVC can be used to record off-the-air HDTV programs (and there are a lot scheduled for next fall). It can also play D-Theater tapes, and so far a dozen have been designated for release. Me, I want to encourage the studios to release hi-def tapes pending the wait for hi-def DVDs, and the only way to do that is to show them there is a market for the tapes they are currently releasing. And I get to record off the air HDTV programming as well. So I'm in. I hope others take the plunge as well, but to each his/her own. I also hope someone from JVC pays attention to this forum and helps create a market for their product.

My one major disappointment--Direct TV apparently will not permit satellite receivers with a Direct TV tuner to output via firewire (as reported by a Toshiba rep to Gary Reber). Echostar does not have that restriction. So, recording HDNet with the JVC-DVS does not appear to be in the cards. I'm stuck with using a JVC WVHS for that.

Bruce is correct. The D-Theater encryption is only encrypted on the tapes not on the 5c/Firewire or component outputs. This is the biggest misconception of D-Theater and the 30k spread around the internet. The 30k is the same as the Mitsubishi except the Jvc "has analog component outputs". The 5c/Firewire on the 30k will always pass "Full Rez" D-Theater to a display which complies with 5c/Firewire.

I am not naive enough to think analog inputs are going to be around for long but the 30K is covered both for now with analog, and the future with 5C. I have no doubt that within 10 years time we will look at new equipment and not see analog outputs. Its inevitable no matter what people want. It will not happen overnight but analog will slowly be phased out.

As for the people who could not see the substantial difference in up-converted Dvd vs 1920x1080 D-Theater, I would say its to do more with distance than anything. The WSR Reference Theater uses an 84" widescreen for the DTV1101 Runco, so you need to be seated 10/10-1/2 ft away for your eyes to pickup the extra detail of a 1920x1080 image.
WSR's Theater is like most HTs in that it is small and everyone really can not be in the ideal spot. Owning a G90 which is on a 72" Stewart widescreen my D-Theater is absolutely stunning and I just can not see how anyone could not see how much better it is, unless you where too far from the screen. No doubt we will see some tapes better than others, but even the very best Dvd looks like "Vhs" to me now that I have got so much more HD material. The D-Theater stuff is just icing on the top. I do not think that some displays are capable of showing just how good D-Theater is, but for those who have excellent High Rez displays it is absolutely awesome.

What a great lead up to a high bit rate HD-Dvd system in 5yrs time and I hope the studios really get right behind it. I also hope the low bit rate HD-Dvd pushed by Warner gets the market it deserves "0" !


DavidW

Thanks to all for your posts.

Just thought I would throw this out there.

I have a Sony 36 inch 16:9 TV with component inputs. The component inputs accept progressive scan and 480p DVDs look great on a progressive scan player.

Just wondering how much better movies would look using DVHS on a TV of this size?

Understand that a lot of you guys are using projectors but wondering if there would be a big difference from a smaller display device...???

Cheers
Mark

You are correct about your four points, but I don't agree with your conclusion. The content providers are not satisfied with 5C copy protection. There's too much legacy equipment out there, with too many small IC's and with too much accessibility to internal circuitry. I think that was the argument that JVC used to convince some studios they could avoid those risks by confining their releases to D-theater.

Even Joe Kane is convinced that he can't take the chance of releasing his stuff in any format other than D-theater. It's his opinion that 5C is too easy to rip, and if he released his HD Video Essentials in DVHS format, sales of the product would evaporate quickly.

I attended the 2-5 session on Sunday. I was disappointed that the D5 tape was nowhere to be found! So both sessions 5 and 6 couldn't make the comparison. Session 5 didn't have the tape available and they were wheeling away the player by the end of the session.

I was one of the lucky ones to sit in the sweet spot. Our first demo was of U571 in 480p played on a Sony 9000ES (?) Progressive DVDP, viewed w/both the G90 and the Runco. The Runco was supposedly calibrated a day or two before the event but appeared washed out to me. Too much brightness, I think. (After the session, they called in a Runco guy so I think there was something else wrong w/the proj.) And the G90...the G90 looked terrible. Perry Sun did appologize and said the G90 is capable of displaying a better picture but it had not been calibrated for a while and caused the poor picture. We then switched to D-Theater of U571 only on the Runco. Improvement was there but it wasn't mind-blowing, picture wise. Details were more visible in dark scenes, close-ups, flesh tones were great, but again appeared washed out to me. Audio is what really impressed me! I was so engrossed in the sound of the D-Theater tape that I really felt I was inside the sub during the depth charge scene. I heard some heavy panting behind me, as others had mentioned, and I thought someone was having a heart attack in the room. But I then heard more panting that coincided w/the characters breathing and realized it was the movie! I could hear everything in the sub including chains clanging together, water dripping all around me, and the crews tiniest movement. It was truly remarkable. I don't remember this kind of detail in the DVD audiowise. I'll have to pop in U-571 tomorrow and listen more closely, but I don't expect the same quality in my setup.

The seats in the sweet spot had been specially fitted w/some
enhancements by Odyssey.(?) It had tactile transducers and also swayed as if I was on a boat during U571. The tactile transducers were distracting and the swaying nearly made me sea sick. I'm not sure if I can sit through a whole movie with the...thing on all the time. The first few minutes were entertaining. After a while, I just wanted to watch the movie w/o it.

If I recall correctly, I think Joe Kane came next w/his sample. I think his 720p material was the best video demo in the whole session. (I don't look for edge enhancement so it doesn't't bother me like most of you, plus I only have a 65" RPTV and watch at 12'. I don't think it's relevant to my setup at that distance.) It's going to be interesting when Joe Kane finishes this project.

By now I've relinquished the sweet spot and sat at the very last row of metal chairs. We viewed the rest of the material on the double stacked Runco DLPs on a 10' wide Greyhawk. WOW! The whole demo should've been watched w/this setup. I was impressed. I've always planned on getting a CRT FPTV but this demo has engraved DLP into my memory.

We then watched Lenno and Bikini Destinations recorded w/the Samsung T-165/30k combo. This demo alone was the selling point for me. I can't really say I'd buy a 30k for D-Theater. The demo I watched was not impressive but I think it was due to their equipment. I watched a little T2 in D-Theater and the picture was much better. ID4 on the Runco was horrible. It was soft and lacked detail. Don't demo D-Theater w/this tape. You'll hate the 30k! What did convince me to really want one was the recording quality it brings home! Which was my initial interest in the 30k.

I can't thank enough the WSR staff for their hospitality. Both times I've been in their facility the staff have been kind, friendly, and generous. I'd kindly accept their invitations any day.

As far as the component outputs down converting/rezzing D-Theater tapes, it will never happen according to the reps that were in my session. I asked the question during the round table and they adamantly stated that down converting/rezzing won't happen and that the info in this thread concerning the component outputs is incorrect.

I was at the last session, and the JVC rep specifically stated that no D-Theater tape would be down-rezzed from the component outs on any release of D-Theater, ever.

He may be misinformed, but he seemed like he was pretty positive about that.

There is absolutely no benefit to the studios doing so, as we have really no good way to record component. If one had such a device, would they bootleg D-Theater tapes? I think not.

The presentation was impressive, kudos to WSR for opening their doors to the public and letting us see it on a high-end system.

Being the only attendee who actually owns a unit, I was happy to see there was not a single drop-out of audio or video in the entire presentation. These tapes had been played many times over the past few days, and I doubt any of us would play them as much.

As I pointed out (as did the JVC rep to me), the method WSR was using to present DVD material is not really equal to what the average potential D-VHS customer would have. I suggested the best way for one to see the difference would be to test the unit in their own setup, where they are familiar with the quality currently received.

Seeing this demo reaffirms what I've previously known. If you wish to have HD content to play back, be it precorded D-VHS or time shifted ATSC, there is no other solution.

Grilling the JVC rep about future models yielded the usual "can't talk about that" response.

I got to play my demo tape I made of hd stuff on their system. That was worth it alone. I kind of wish I asked them to play it for the audience, because I had film-source stuff from broadcast, and they just had Leno. I personally think NBC's HD feed lacks in comparison to CBS and PBS, but awesome nonetheless.

I realistically don't believe this demo will really "push anyone over the edge," and make them run out and buy one. If one has done any of their own comparisons of any DVD source to a D-Theater source (or even OTA ATSC), they would see the difference is quite dramatic.

Even downconverted to 480i out the s-video is incredible on a regular old NTSC set. Better than any DVD or laserdisc I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot.

Everybopdy bitches and says "why should I buy this when HD-DVD is 3-5 years away?" Did you say that when DVD was released? I remember back selling laserdiscs and there was one guy who was "going to wait for HD." Then DVD came out. He was "going to wait for HD." Well his first statement of that nature was made 10 years ago (or more). I think he just got a DVD player not too long ago.

If the public fails to demonstrate demand for quality in HD either meeting or surpassing the only current offering, no amount of survey market research can overcome that.

When selling Laserdiscs, the comment often received was "But you can't record" DVD, the same comment. Well, this is HD, and YOU CAN RECORD. Show me another cost-effective way to time-shift HDTV, and I'll buy that too. Recording to hard-drives is NOT cost effective and temporary at best.

I don't expect everyone to run out and buy a $1000 vcr just for the heck of it, but if you really wanted one, you would already have one (or several, Dave). Keep the regular VHS and DVD for the kids and mom who complains about the "black bars" anyways. This isn't made for them.

I'm just glad that at least JVC has recognized that everyone is NOT my MOM and wants the best possible available quality, whatever medium it is delivered on.

I have seen many threads abotu dropout etc, and I can emphatically tell you aI have had one for two months and used it almost every day. I've played the demo tape and the concert tapes numerous times with not a single dropout. If this is a reason for one NOT to buy, try to find another one, because I don't believe this is an issue.

T2 is unfortunately not the best example because of the Super35 source and Cameron's short-sightedness. Recently produced movies that look most amazing on DVD look x% more amazing in HD. If you are one of those who "can't tell the difference between audio cassettes and CDs", they why are you even reading this thread?

Bottom line: Thanks WSR, great presentation. Thanks for taking the time to introduce the public to something brilliant that you knew beforehand they would have mixed feelings about before even SEEING anything or the unit.

-s