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Is Online Delivery Acceptable for Home Theater Use? - Page 5

Poll Results: Is Online Delivery Acceptable for Home Theater Use?

 
  • 11% (38)
    iTunes HD and Vudu HDX are totally acceptable for HT use
  • 7% (25)
    iTunes HD and Vudu HDX are barely acceptable for HT use
  • 11% (37)
    Vudu HDX and Blu-ray are acceptable for HT use, iTunes HD is not
  • 2% (7)
    iTunes HD and Blu-ray are acceptable for HT use, Vudu HDX is not
  • 67% (226)
    Blu-ray is acceptable for HT use, iTunes HD and Vudu HDX are not
333 Total Votes  
post #121 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

You make laugh! Political issue? LOL!!! rolleyes.gif

How is it any other than a political issue? It's the same in the US, just not as bad. It's a matter of the government not regulating enough and/or promoting competition. There is no technical reason why people in Canada can't have fast, unlimited connections like many other places in the world.
post #122 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

Huh? Who's shooting TV on cinema cameras? They're probably shooting a lot of it at 1080/60p or 1080/60i.

I can't even count the number of shows that have moved over to Arri Alexa, you know, the cinema camera used to shoot Skyfall, The Avengers, Life of Pi, Hugo, and Zero Dark Thirty (just to name a few). It is very much a cinema camera.

A few television shows shot on Alexa: NCIS - LA, Hell on Wheels, The Vampire Diaries, Once Upon A Time, Grimm, Person of Interest, Game of Thrones, Downton Abbey, Doctor Who, Sherlock, Homeland, Modern Family, Boardwalk Empire...need I go on? And yes, a lot of these are shot at 24fps.
post #123 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabba359 View Post

I can't even count the number of shows that have moved over to Arri Alexa, you know, the cinema camera used to shoot Skyfall, The Avengers, Life of Pi, Hugo, and Zero Dark Thirty (just to name a few). It is very much a cinema camera.

A few television shows shot on Alexa: NCIS - LA, Hell on Wheels, The Vampire Diaries, Once Upon A Time, Grimm, Person of Interest, Game of Thrones, Downton Abbey, Doctor Who, Sherlock, Homeland, Modern Family, Boardwalk Empire...need I go on? And yes, a lot of these are shot at 24fps.

Indeed, it is the switch to digital cinema cameras that has helped television series full-on compete with movies. By adopting the cameras and the frame rate used by Hollywood, TV co-opted the visual language of film and now people don't much differentiate between a movie franchise and a "premium" series. On the flip side, old-school TV used 60i NTSC video cameras, which of course became synonymous with the look of soap operas. Now TV shows use 24P on purpose, while Peter Jackson suffered withering criticism for daring to use a high frame rate in The Hobbit.
Edited by imagic - 3/14/13 at 6:28pm
post #124 of 171
Has anyone compared the quality of purchasing HD digital movies from Amazon versus Vudu and iTunes?
post #125 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Indeed, it is the switch to digital cinema cameras that has helped television series full-on compete with movies. By adopting the cameras and the frame rate used by Hollywood, TV co-opted the visual language of film and now people don't much differentiate between a movie franchise and a "premium" series. On the flip side, old-school TV used 60i NTSC video cameras, which of course became synonymous with the look of soap operas. Now TV shows use 24P on purpose, while The Hobbit suffered withering criticism for daring to use a high frame rate.

NTSC video cameras are no longer used in the HD world, HD cameras are all ATSC, not NTSC. NTSC is limited to 480p only
post #126 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

NTSC video cameras are no longer used in the HD world, HD cameras are all ATSC, not NTSC. NTSC is limited to 480p only

I remember NTSC, it's what I grew up with after I moved to the U.S. in 1980. I've been editing video since the DV era, right on through HDV and now 1080/60p. Looking forward to the 4K era, have yet to receive a quote request but by this time next year I'm sure I'll have at least one DSLR that shoots 4K and a way to edit it. My software supports, the main barrier is playback. There's money to be made each time a new standard rolls out, there's always some client who wants the latest and greatest.

"Soap Opera Effect" is named because soap operas were (are?) filmed in 60i, which was the standard in the USA back when all broadcasting was NTSC 60i, and movies were absolutely butchered on TV, while our "PALs" abroad got to watch ever so slightly sped up film without the need for evil telecine 2-3 pulldown. If only it was 480p for all those fuzzy years, that would have been great.
Edited by imagic - 3/14/13 at 6:26pm
post #127 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

How is it any other than a political issue? It's the same in the US, just not as bad. It's a matter of the government not regulating enough and/or promoting competition. There is no technical reason why people in Canada can't have fast, unlimited connections like many other places in the world.

No technical reason?
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTsd5wEkWptm7FByxEmwtmgmM0rtqQ3OFIjPBoHYRfbJzGzFK3xqQ
How about the fact that we have about one-tenth your population spread over a larger area? It's far more economical providing bandwidth in high-density areas than low-density areas. The US averages about 88 people per square mile. Canada has 8. Even if you choose to ignore the northern 3/4 of our country completely, you still have a density that's about one quarter that of the US. Compound that with the fact that the associated equipment is more expensive in Canada, and further compound that by the fact that the underground work in ALL of the country has to either be done during a shortened season or at a much higher cost.

Like many, I live in the country, and have no cables of any sort connected to my house except for power. Some homes also have telephone connections, but there is still no high-speed availability unless your distance to DSL equipment is within a mile or so, which eliminates the vast majority. My internet is a wireless shot to a town about five miles away. I have the 8 Mb/sec as a peak, and normally much lower.
post #128 of 171
Like I stated earlier, BiggAW, your comment on "political reason" is laughable at best biggrin.gif please have your facts line up before commenting on my country. As I mentioned earlier, it seems like you think the world revolves around USA. None of my US friends think that way, by the way.
post #129 of 171
This is the first time I get to say this. As a US citizen (lol) don't let the comments of one person talking politics or whatever else was said, sway your opinion of others here David. We don't all think inside the box. It seems this thread has brought out the best and worst in some of us. You seem like a good guy, and if I keep buttering you up I was hoping you'd send me some of that good Molson golden you have up here not the knock off version we get down here wink.gif
post #130 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Dave View Post

No technical reason?
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTsd5wEkWptm7FByxEmwtmgmM0rtqQ3OFIjPBoHYRfbJzGzFK3xqQ
How about the fact that we have about one-tenth your population spread over a larger area? It's far more economical providing bandwidth in high-density areas than low-density areas. The US averages about 88 people per square mile. Canada has 8. Even if you choose to ignore the northern 3/4 of our country completely, you still have a density that's about one quarter that of the US. Compound that with the fact that the associated equipment is more expensive in Canada, and further compound that by the fact that the underground work in ALL of the country has to either be done during a shortened season or at a much higher cost.

Like many, I live in the country, and have no cables of any sort connected to my house except for power. Some homes also have telephone connections, but there is still no high-speed availability unless your distance to DSL equipment is within a mile or so, which eliminates the vast majority. My internet is a wireless shot to a town about five miles away. I have the 8 Mb/sec as a peak, and normally much lower.

I am from semi-rural WI and my max is 24Mbps, but actually get max of about 16-18Mbps.. that's actually the top-tier around here.. and I would imagine many other parts of the U.S.

I have been to different areas of Canada on fishing trips, about a dozen times- and have seen how remote some areas are. I think you speak the truth.

Bandwidth will get better, but it's going to take a LONG time to catch up with the average area... for many- too long. I know of several areas that were lucky to have a phone line with one phone at the main desk. No internet, no cable, no cell-service even at resorts catering to visitors. I can't imagine streaming netflix in most any place I've been to in Canada.
post #131 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

This is the first time I get to say this. As a US citizen (lol) don't let the comments of one person talking politics or whatever else was said, sway your opinion of others here David. We don't all think inside the box. It seems this thread has brought out the best and worst in some of us. You seem like a good guy, and if I keep buttering you up I was hoping you'd send me some of that good Molson golden you have up here not the knock off version we get down here wink.gif

For sure I don't think that way about US people in general. Quite a number of my clients are from the US and in my many years I'm at AVS I only encounter one or two people who thinks USA is the centre of the universe.

PS: no need to butter me up wink.gif REAL Molson for anybody from anywhere in the world who visits me! (I don't think shipping food over the border is allowable, unfortunately).
post #132 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

For sure I don't think that way about US people in general. Quite a number of my clients are from the US and in my many years I'm at AVS I only encounter one or two people who thinks USA is the centre of the universe.

PS: no need to butter me up wink.gif REAL Molson for anybody from anywhere in the world who visits me! (I don't think shipping food over the border is allowable, unfortunately).



Glad to hear that. Every time I have a Molson it just ticks me off that the ones in your frig are better lol. Seriously though have a good day!
post #133 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMonMan View Post

I am from semi-rural WI and my max is 24Mbps, but actually get max of about 16-18Mbps.. that's actually the top-tier around here.. and I would imagine many other parts of the U.S.

I have been to different areas of Canada on fishing trips, about a dozen times- and have seen how remote some areas are. I think you speak the truth.

Bandwidth will get better, but it's going to take a LONG time to catch up with the average area... for many- too long. I know of several areas that were lucky to have a phone line with one phone at the main desk. No internet, no cable, no cell-service even at resorts catering to visitors. I can't imagine streaming netflix in most any place I've been to in Canada.

Canada's cities are very impressive by any standard. Technically, 80% of Canada's population is classified as living in non-rural area; in or around a city. Furthermore, a full 50% of Canadians live in an urban conglomerate, as defined by the world bank. It turns out those figures are nearly identical in the USA, using the same measures for population density.
Edited by imagic - 3/14/13 at 12:47pm
post #134 of 171
Yes, but there are far fewer cities, with far fewer people in each city, and a much greater distance between these population centers.
post #135 of 171
Sort of my thinking on that as well Fat Dave. A farmer in the middle of nowhere in the u.s. is still likely within 10 miles of a town, whereas someone in the middle of nowhere in Canada could be at a much further distance. I remember talking to the owners of one of the resorts I visited once and them telling us about kids taking their four wheelers to school and schoolbuses taking 3 hours to get to the end of their routes. You don't really have that here. And I fully realize that Canada's cities are impressive, actually in many regards. Excellent cities, schools, healthcare, and people too. All that without having a government that is buried in debt like us. If it wasn't for a couple poor past decisions and OWI's to show for them, I would seriously consider to move there. I would expect your cities, suburbs, and towns to have excellent internet options, areas surrounding them to have good options, with lowering levels of service as you get away from those cities, at some dropping off service altogether. It's much the same here, only you can't find many areas where you far enough from all the cities for it to drop off altogether. Rural areas are not as good as the cities, and some better then others... but most are still well within 15 miles of a town, and an hour or two's drive of a major city. Not to mention the water. You guys have a lot of remote areas, often fly in only. We just don't have much of that. I believe the numbers are accurate- with a similar percentage of people living in cities compared to living in rural areas.. but your rural areas are just a lot bigger and more difficult to get to. Even when areas are similar distances, here they are separated by farm fields AND only the northernmost states have to stop utility and construction in the winter. In Canada, most rural areas (from my experience) are heavily wooded, virgin forests (or "the bush" as I've heard locals refer to it). over rocks and between lakes AND buried in snow half the year. I love Canada, but can certainly see how there could be challenges in offering reliable internet to some areas in ways that economically are feasible. eh?
post #136 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabba359 View Post

I can't even count the number of shows that have moved over to Arri Alexa, you know, the cinema camera used to shoot Skyfall, The Avengers, Life of Pi, Hugo, and Zero Dark Thirty (just to name a few). It is very much a cinema camera.

A few television shows shot on Alexa: NCIS - LA, Hell on Wheels, The Vampire Diaries, Once Upon A Time, Grimm, Person of Interest, Game of Thrones, Downton Abbey, Doctor Who, Sherlock, Homeland, Modern Family, Boardwalk Empire...need I go on? And yes, a lot of these are shot at 24fps.

Ok. I guess not much of the stuff I watch is shot on 24p. I don't usually watch fiction content (unless you count some reality shows with their pseudo-scripting...).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Dave View Post

How about the fact that we have about one-tenth your population spread over a larger area? It's far more economical providing bandwidth in high-density areas than low-density areas. The US averages about 88 people per square mile. Canada has 8. Even if you choose to ignore the northern 3/4 of our country completely, you still have a density that's about one quarter that of the US. Compound that with the fact that the associated equipment is more expensive in Canada, and further compound that by the fact that the underground work in ALL of the country has to either be done during a shortened season or at a much higher cost.

Like many, I live in the country, and have no cables of any sort connected to my house except for power. Some homes also have telephone connections, but there is still no high-speed availability unless your distance to DSL equipment is within a mile or so, which eliminates the vast majority. My internet is a wireless shot to a town about five miles away. I have the 8 Mb/sec as a peak, and normally much lower.

The US also has people in rural areas who are underserved. The US in the 1950's had a project for rural telephone service to become universal, but we don't have the political will to do the same for 1gbps internet... or even 1mbps internet in some places. There is no technical reason you can't serve rural customers with fiber as long as they have power poles to run it on (and if they don't have power poles, they are off the grid, so satellite is the only option anyways).
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Like I stated earlier, BiggAW, your comment on "political reason" is laughable at best biggrin.gif please have your facts line up before commenting on my country. As I mentioned earlier, it seems like you think the world revolves around USA. None of my US friends think that way, by the way.

I in no way think that the US is the center of the universe. The US is severely lacking in broadband deployment and broadband policy, and I certainly don't mean to say that we have a good system, merely one that is slightly less messed up than Canada's. We have many of the same fundamental problems of the telcos running our government and the government being too weak to stand up against monopolistic practices, caps, overages, etc, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Canada's cities are very impressive by any standard. Technically, 80% of Canada's population is classified as living in non-rural area; in or around a city. Furthermore, a full 50% of Canadians live in an urban conglomerate, as defined by the world bank. It turns out those figures are nearly identical in the USA, using the same measures for population density.

^^This. In fact, Canada, depending on how you look at it, has less suburban sprawl due to policies that promote the growth of healthy cities, unlike the US, where we built the Eisenhower highway system, and then proceeded to embrace strongly pro-home-purchase policies as a way to grow wealth, and the cultural notion of the suburb, and then left our cities to rot, with many of them (with the exception of some of the bigger ones like NYC, Boston, and LA) still rotting today.
post #137 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post


Huh? Who's shooting TV on cinema cameras? They're probably shooting a lot of it at 1080/60p or 1080/60i. That, and no one actually views it in 24p, since TV is a lot of 1080/60i and 720/60p. 

According to Ron Williams, a consultant to the TV and movie industry, episodic TV (mostly dramas with ongoing story lines) are shot at 24p, while sitcoms, news, sports, etc. are mostly shot at 1080/60i or 720/60p. He reports that CBS is talking about shooting at 1080/60p, but no one is doing that yet. You're correct that no TV content is broadcast at 24fps.

post #138 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

According to Ron Williams, a consultant to the TV and movie industry, episodic TV (mostly dramas with ongoing story lines) are shot at 24p, while sitcoms, news, sports, etc. are mostly shot at 1080/60i or 720/60p. He reports that CBS is talking about shooting at 1080/60p, but no one is doing that yet. You're correct that no TV content is broadcast at 24fps.

That explains why I very rarely see it. Most of the stuff I watch is either news/talk shows, or shot on cheap, rugged cameras.
post #139 of 171
I was planning to sell all my Blu-Rays and go digital when we got a Mac. That all came to a screeching halt when I watched Fight Club and The Grey in 1080p HD from the iTunes Store. The lack of grain and details was a downer. The compressed audio was also a downer. I am going to stick to Blu-Rays for now.
post #140 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FacePalmMonkey View Post

I was planning to sell all my Blu-Rays and go digital when we got a Mac. That all came to a screeching halt when I watched Fight Club and The Grey in 1080p HD from the iTunes Store. The lack of grain and details was a downer. The compressed audio was also a downer. I am going to stick to Blu-Rays for now.

Some Blu-ray discs come with both iTunes and Vudu HDX "digital copies", so give it another try every now and then. The quality of the digital version keeps improving. I swore off iTunes about two years ago because the compression degraded the movies so much. I have not found that to be the case with new releases, and Vudu has impressed me with its sound quality. In fact I think I need to do some tests of Blu-ray vs. Vudu HDX audio
post #141 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Some Blu-ray discs come with both iTunes and Vudu HDX "digital copies", so give it another try every now and then. The quality of the digital version keeps improving. I swore off iTunes about two years ago because the compression degraded the movies so much. I have not found that to be the case with new releases, and Vudu has impressed me with its sound quality. In fact I think I need to do some tests of Blu-ray vs. Vudu HDX audio

I rented "Skyfall" from iTunes earlier today and it did look pretty good. Maybe because it was shot digitally.
post #142 of 171
Funny nobody has mentioned the Kaleidescape Download Store yet. The HD downloads are identical to the BD, with exact same video and audio, even all the extras. It's purchase to download, so you can watch as many times as you like and build a collection. Cost per movie is similar to buying the BD. Yes the Kaleidescape hardware is expensive (they call it software wrapped in tin), but prices have come down and will continue to do so.

Of course they need to bring more studios on board to widen the appeal, but I am confident they will do so. For HT enthusiasts it is the best possible solution.
post #143 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerben Van Duyl View Post

Funny nobody has mentioned the Kaleidescape Download Store yet. The HD downloads are identical to the BD, with exact same video and audio, even all the extras. It's purchase to download, so you can watch as many times as you like and build a collection. Cost per movie is similar to buying the BD. Yes the Kaleidescape hardware is expensive (they call it software wrapped in tin), but prices have come down and will continue to do so.

Of course they need to bring more studios on board to widen the appeal, but I am confident they will do so. For HT enthusiasts it is the best possible solution.

Edited - Take a look at the movie selection in the action section of the Kaleidescape online store and tell me, is that worth a five-figure investment in hardware?
Edited by imagic - 3/16/13 at 6:23pm
post #144 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Take a look at the movie selection in the action section of the Kaleidescape online store and tell me, is that worth a five-figure investment in hardware that's about to be obsoleted by companies like Sony, Apple, and Comcast? https://store.kaleidescape.com/movies/genres/action/all

Yeah, their whole system is ridiculous, and has no bearing on the future of anything, as it's way too expensive to get even mass adoption among people on this forum, much less actual mass adoption.
post #145 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerben Van Duyl View Post

Funny nobody has mentioned the Kaleidescape Download Store yet. The HD downloads are identical to the BD, with exact same video and audio, even all the extras. It's purchase to download, so you can watch as many times as you like and build a collection. Cost per movie is similar to buying the BD. Yes the Kaleidescape hardware is expensive (they call it software wrapped in tin), but prices have come down and will continue to do so.

Of course they need to bring more studios on board to widen the appeal, but I am confident they will do so. For HT enthusiasts it is the best possible solution.

I agree, one can't easily dismiss Kaleidescape. Price is not in discussion here, only quality. And the only download service that equals blu-ray is Kaleidescape.
post #146 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Dave View Post

Yes, but there are far fewer cities, with far fewer people in each city, and a much greater distance between these population centers.

Plus the cost of telco infrastructure is much higher in Canada than in the US. heck, the cost of everything is much higher in Canada. My 1,700 sq ft townhome in the outskirt of Toronto is approx US$550,000 and that's about a60-minute drive from downtown eek.gif
post #147 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

According to Ron Williams, a consultant to the TV and movie industry, episodic TV (mostly dramas with ongoing story lines) are shot at 24p, while sitcoms, news, sports, etc. are mostly shot at 1080/60i or 720/60p. He reports that CBS is talking about shooting at 1080/60p, but no one is doing that yet. You're correct that no TV content is broadcast at 24fps.

Scott, do you have any info on how they are going to broadcast 1080/60p? I thought the max capability for broadcast is 1080/60i?
post #148 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I agree, one can't easily dismiss Kaleidescape. Price is not in discussion here, only quality. And the only download service that equals blu-ray is Kaleidescape.

Until some of the 4K download and streaming services come online, kaleidescape can take the crown for highest quality downloads. Netflix announced their intention to stream 4K. Kaleidescape is going to have to sign some kind of deal for content; the issue is selection. Action and Sci-Fi are two genres where I expect certain staples will be available. https://store.kaleidescape.com/movies/genres/sci-fi/all just won't cut it for sci-fi. Alien/Aliens, Star Trek, Star Wars, War of the Worlds, Starship Troopers, Total Recall, Stargate, and etc.... there are dozens of top-quality movies and hundreds of good movies missing from the Kaleidescape store, in this one genre alone.
Edited by imagic - 3/17/13 at 7:58am
post #149 of 171
I agree, the selection is truly lacking. However, being a Canadian, I'm used to lack-of-content as our Netflix places such as RedBox' selections are laughable.
post #150 of 171
I agree, the selection is truly lacking. However, being a Canadian, I'm used to lack-of-content as our Netflix places such as RedBox' selections are laughable.
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