Speaker size for a 18 x 20 living room

For that size room most certainly 8" minimum. As to if there are 8" in-ceiling available, might have to do some looking.
And units that allow you to adjust the angle of the tweeters at least.

If you are talking about the same quality 8" vs 6", then go with 8".

If you have to lower the quality due to price to get the 8", then go with 6".

Quality over quantity.

You have to do what you have to do.  That said, my neighbor has some in ceiling speakers.  My opinon?  Epic fail....unless you don't mind the muzak experience or elevator experience in your home.

 

Granted, his ceilings are something like 15 feet high.  It's about 11,000 sq/ft house.  His wife hurried me into their den to "hear our surround system"

 

Happened that the evening news was on. Sound coming from 15 feet above....guy on TV was doing weather.  It was like the voice from God was telling me it was going to be sunny the next week....who was I to argue?

 

That said, it was just weird hearing the main vocals from above while the visuals were in front.

 

If you must hide like that, (if it were me now that I experienced my neighbors system) I'd at least try to go in/on wall for the FRONT and do ceiling for the rears.

 

I think there is something to be said psychologically for the sound to eminate from the apparent source as the visuals, at least, for me there is.

+1. For background music ala a hotel lobby or neighborhood restaurant ceiling speakers are OK. That's about it. I'd sooner use a Bose cube system than in-ceilings.


Well, maybe not.

Don't let these die-hards fool you! In-ceiling speakers for a theater are very common place any more. So much so that manufacturers have evolved and engineered designs that do incredibly well in this config - as long as you are sitting far enough back. So, don't worry. You'll get something really nice.... IF YOU HAVE SOME $$ to spend. We have done systems like this for clients many times which resulted in some really special systems.

Lets forget about the sub for a moment (that's probably going to be simple to figure and place).

You did NOT list a budget, so I am going to recommend what I feel is the best stuff and you can take it from there.

Best: BG Radia IC-201 MSRP: $1000
LINK: http://bgcorp.com/PDFs/IC-201%20ProductSheet.pdf
YouTube Video (Robin's a little stiff on camera, but you won't find a nicer, more performance concerned guy when it comes to loudspeaker design: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMRVPXTmjzs

NOTE: The Planar Magnetic Driver is, IMO, an incredible driver. It uses 4 4" Kevlar woofers. I have one of these sitting next to me if someone wants more pics. The dispersion out of this speaker is phenomenal, which is why it works so well as an in-ceiling LCR.

The matching surrounds to this are the SS-202 at $1250 each. Honestly, the standard in-ceilings that go for $650 a pair or so would be fine for the rears. However, those are round and these fronts are a square grille. So the SS-202 match them exactly.

2nd best: In-ceiling LCR , KL-7502 THX model from Klipsch. Those are the same price as the BG. The cutout for these is HUGE! Here is a link: http://www.klipsch.com/kl-7502-thx-in-ceiling-speaker


If your budget is under $1000 then look at Phase Technology or Atlantic Technology. RBH is another good one. TruAudio has some offerings as well. At around $400 or so a piece or less, none of those are in the same galaxy as the BG or Klipsch models I linked above.

Hope this helps you some!

That's just poor configuration lol. They have in ceiling speakers. The OP is talking about putting speakers in the wall if I'm not mistaken. Don't most manufacturers have an in wall speaker line?

Why wouldn't something like the Polk RC85i work? That's a 1 inch tweeter 8 inch woofer speaker, Couple that with some 2 6.5 inch surrounds and that's 4 speakers. They don't have a center channel but I'm sure you could technically make the 2 6.5 inch surrounds (They have tweeters in them as well), and wire them together to create a center channel. Not the only brand but the one I've seen on newegg. Just quickly browsing though it's possible to do it, of course you wont get the quality other people do though.

You are mistaken, my man. 7.1 In-ceiling is his requirement.

Prof Bill knows his stuff... I am paraphrasing him but..(he can correct me if I am wrong)

Don't get too carried away with in-ceiling speakers because best to worst ...due to acoustics...are not going to be oceans apart.

Try Monoprice or similar and work your way up if you hate them. You are not going to get audiophile quality from in-ceiling speakers.

At least that is what I read into what he said...

Also..if you can even statelight speakers should be better than in ceiling speakers.

I hope he's open to them. I think he'll have a better experience

In ceiling speakers would work pretty well if your screen is on the ceiling and you watch it while lying down.

I was thinking the same thing when I read your previous comment. LOL

But more seriously, wouldn't some kind of 3 channel soundbar in front of the TV be better than in ceiling speakers for the front sound stage? If there's no room for left/right speakers, I think I'd go that route before putting speakers in the ceiling.

I see there are twelve posts and only the first is from the thread starter.
He says they have to be in-ceiling, but does not give the reason why they have to be.
Is it WAF, no wall space, all glass house. And if its WAF, I'd be changing her mind or just flat tell her how its going to be.
Even the best in-ceiling leaves much to be desired. Even ceiling speakers with adjustable tweeters is only slightly better.
And if the ceilings are any higher than 8 ft, then he really has a problem.
In-wall speakers (if of a quality design) would be much better.

Good Lord. You guys do know that this is TECHNOLOGY we're talking about, right? It's not 1972 any more . Things have, you know... progressed some?

I linked 2 speakers in response #6 of this thread that are DESIGNED to be used as in-ceiling LCRs and perform incredibly well for multi-channel audio, surround sound, and home theaters. There are literally over one hundred of other engineered solutions for this - some even THX certified. In 2013, In-ceiling LCR is a common request in the residential speaker industry which has driven main stream speaker manufacturers to design pieces specifically for this purpose.

Besides the two that I linked, here are links to 2 dozen more of these speakers all engineered to perform as in-ceiling Left/Center/Right and at varying price points from higher end to entry level.....

1. http://www.episodespeakers.com/product/49/Episode-700-Series-Home-Theater-In-Ceiling-LCR-Speaker
2. http://www.definitivetech.com/products/uiw-rcs-ii
3. http://www.definitivetech.com/products/uiw-rcs-ii
4. http://www.jamo.com/speaker-types/installation/?sku=IC610LCR
5. http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/icb8lcr.html
6. http://totemacoustic.com/en/hi-fi/in-wall-in-ceiling/tribe-kin-in-ceiling/
7. http://www.sonance.com/products/speakers/detail/93
8. http://truaudio.com/products/6/In-Ceiling_Revolve_6_Inch
9. http://truaudio.com/products/6/In-Ceiling_Revolve_8_Inch
10. http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Custom_Installation/CI_Series/CCM7.3.html
11. http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Custom_Installation/CI_Series/CCM7.4.html
12. http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/in-wall-in-ceiling/signature/signature-series/sig-1-5r-30
13. http://www.bostonacoustics.com/US/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?CatId=HomeAudio(BostonAcoustics_US)&SubCatId=InCeiling(BostonAcoustics_US)&Pid=VSi5830(BostonAcoustics)
14. http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/audio-video/in-wall-ceiling-speakers-by-type/ceiling-speakers/me650c-6-1-2-lcrs-15-angled-ceiling-speaker.html
15. http://www.episodespeakers.com/product/46/Episode-ES-700-Angled-In-Ceiling-Speaker-with-6.5-inch-Woofer
16. http://rbhsound.com/inceilinglcr_mc.php
17. http://rbhsound.com/inceilinglcr_arch.php
18. http://rbhsound.com/inceilinglcr_vis.php
19. http://atlantictechnology.com/default.asp?NodeId=167
20. http://www.martinlogan.com/architectural/stealth/index.php#vanquish
21. http://kef.com/html/us/showroom/custom_installed_speakers/ci_series/fact_sheet/Rectangle/ci2003qt/index.html
22. http://kef.com/html/us/showroom/custom_installed_speakers/ci_series/fact_sheet/Rectangle/ci380qt/index.html
23. http://www.revelspeakers.com/Products/Details/207
24. http://rslspeakers.com/store/rsl-c34-37.html

My point is that high performance, in-ceiling LCR systems can absolutely be had. So can mid level. So can entry level. Manufacturers have worked very hard on this specifically and have done really really well with some of the resulting products. To come into a thread and give advice on something that you either don't know exists or that you have little to no experience with isn't really fair to the OP.

Which in ceiling speakers do you use? And before you assume that other posters aren't either knowledgeable or experienced, you should at the very least look at their public profiles, if not google their names. On that count, doing so with you turns up nothing.

Bill,

You design speakers for a living. I have seen your website and visited it several times over the years. Your folded horn subwoofer fascinates me to the point where just last night I was trying to draw up a system in which we could put it into cabinetry to hide such a beast. I have seen the videos online of some of your products as well. The outdoor line array video is particularly a fun one. For those who haven't seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zns6E_AG4Yc

I have absolutely ZERO doubt that you know how design a great speaker. HOWEVER.... that does not mean that you know how to design or have worked with EVERY type of speaker in all types of environments. So before you assume that someone hasn't done their homework on who they are replying to... don't. In learning about your background on your website there is nothing that indicates you have any experience being successful with in-ceiling or in-ceiling LCR designs. If you do, I would love to read about what you have been able to build because architectural speakers are the lion's share of our system design.

That being said, besides reviewing your background on them, just based on your statements about in-ceiling speakers in this thread alone shows a lack of understanding or practical experience with them. That is not to say you don't understand audio, can't build a speaker, etc. It was merely to point out that just because someone holds expertise in some areas of audio does NOT mean they are an expert in all of it. By the way, is it such a bad thing to admit expertise in some areas and novice in another? Why would anyone feign omniscience unless solely to feed their ego or insecurities ("Google me". Really, Bill?).

While I would absolutely and under no circumstances even pretend to intelligently discuss with you anything to do with folded horn loudspeakers or technical in-room cabinet design (beyond relative basics), please forgive me if I do not hold your opinion of architectural speakers in very high regard. This is where I would have to draw a line between our experiences in real life environments with real life people and a lab.

I would like to address your issues in your reply to me and, sorry to be unkind - but none of your remarks even remotely disputed my point, which was that even though some guys on a message board say that in-ceiling LCR is crap, the engineers of some very well respected companies feel differently. So much so that these companies have invested millions of dollars in R&D and MFG of their designs.


- I have an anonymous name because of business relationships I have with manufacturers in the A/V market space - similar to you saying you sign nondisclosure agreements so you can't directly say who you work for. If I give out pricing, tell someone what dealer cost is or how much negotiating room there is in a product, or disparage one product in favor of another I would be potentially hurting a business that I have spend half of my life building. Then why do it at all? Because I feel that people deserve honest answers and advice and that perhaps they aren't getting them out in the public. I am sick of the misinformation that runs rampant in A/V (including on these forums) and if I see a post where someone needs help or guidance and I am qualified to do so... I do so.

- EVERYTHING that I post is based off of 1st hand knowledge and experience or direct from the mouth of a manufacturer (in which cases I will say... "the manufacturer said"). I do not, nor do I even at this point want to know everything about everything and I will happily admit that and stay out of threads where I have nothing of substance to add.

- Since you asked, in-ceiling speakers that I been a dealer of, installed, designed environments around and for all intents & purposes used to great degrees between today and, we'll say, the past 10 years and beyond...

BG Radia
PhaseTechnology
AtlanticTechnology
RBH
Jamo
Canton
DaytonAudio
PSB
KEF
Episode
Triad
Sonance
Infinity
Polk
Klipsch

Why so many brands and models? Because, Bill, things change. Manufacturing processes, new and improved models, designs, etc. I refuse to get caught up in any one idea. As I stated before, this is technology we're dealing with. It is an ever changing and evolving thing. I would be doing a disservice to our clients if I were to stop evolving.

That being said... you are correct on the point that this is the internet and anyone can be anyone.

I don't think anyone would disagree that manufacturers are designing speakers for in-ceiling use. That does not mean that they perform nearly as well as having a front left/right/center around the viewing area. Just because technology has evolved to make the most of a bad design concept does not all of a suddenly make it a good design concept.

So if these in-ceiling speakers work so well, why didn't you provide an equally long list of professional reviews showing that they work as well?

As a matter of fact, I have. It's what I do for a living. I have to know what works, and more importantly, what doesn't.

If one desires accurate imaging and response ceiling speakers don't work. That makes ceiling speakers adequate for surround use in HT, but not for L/C/R, unless you don't care about accurate response and imaging. The exception would be ceiling mounted speaker cabinets that extend down from the ceiling, so that the drivers may be fully aimed at the LP. But that's a totally different scenario from a flush mounted driver.

fwiw,you'll have a hard sell with me because everything that i have heard in the entry and mid level ceiling speakers suck.don't know about hi end inceiling and don't care after hearing mid level in ceiling. i must of heard the old tecnology ones. my sister was sweet talked into the polk tc series ceiling speakers from a local hometheater specialist and i know these are not cheap then add the cost that the audio specialist adds to them without the labor its a real shame.there is no way in hell you can coinvince me that they are better sounding than say polk entry level series bookshelves across the front and surround.she has 10' trey ceilings in her living room and i sit there and there is no sound stage coming from the tv area .there is sound but not like what i'm used to coming from cabinet speakers.she thinks they're great because you can't see them. she gets a little angry when i tell her if you spend that kind of money on speakers you should be satisfied with great sound also and you don't have it. and the inwall sub they sold her is a joke. nothing more than a boom box. just my 2 cents p.s if your business ever fails you can always look at bose they're looking for people like you
Edited by smasher50 - 3/10/13 at 10:40am

fwiw,from what i get from the the op that he was looking for ceiling speakers for 7.1 (with no budget) just for tv and some background music. this to me sounds he's looking hes not looking for anything serious for hometheater movie watching or great sounding music just for some entry level speakers and not something he has to take a loan out for what everyone is recommending . but i could be wrong as usual just ask my wife.

Smasher50,

I'm not trying to sell you anything, only have a discussion. And I'm sorry that your sister had a bad experience from Polk and her installer. I would ask you that, in your mind, because your sister's Polk in-ceiling LCR setup isn't to your liking, does that mean that all in-ceiling LCRs are bad? If Polk can't do it, nobody can? Because that's the logic you've put forward.

I would absolutely understand why an in-wall sub would be tough to listen to. In-wall subwoofers, in general, are a raw deal because it takes a big budget to get in-room like performance and the price is nowhere close to the comparable in-room product. Even then, there are placement concerns and in-room issues that cause poor performance and some models even require pre-construction work that has to be done correctly for the sub to work.

Thank you &, YES, this is all I was saying.
Edited by PlexMulti - 3/10/13 at 11:28am

Performance would all depend on the situation and a lot of variables there within. Without knowing the OPs room and given only the singular qualification of they have to be in-ceiling, I have to go off of the idea that in-wall or in-room is not possible or desired.

My posts were not to assert performance was better one way or the other, but to illustrate that there are a lot of good options out there and even some great ones rather than agree with the other guys (which I don't) who haven't had the experience of using different models and in different configs (which I do).

As far as reviews go, those are a lot tougher to find regarding in-wall speakers, let alone in-ceiling. It's just not practical for reviews to setup. There are asome out there, however. This one, s mid-priced model form Episode, comes to mind...

http://www.hometheater.com/content/episode-es-ht700-ceiling-speaker-system-page-3
Edited by PlexMulti - 3/10/13 at 11:48am

No, Bill. Just.... no.



Also, I linked two such speakers like what you are describing (numbers 21 & 22) in my post #14. It's ok, Bill. Designing every speaker on the planet ever made, you're bound to forget about a few along the way.

That's better than a flush mount, but the size of the sweet spot will be very small compared to a floor/wall/shelf mount. That's OK if you only need a small sweet spot, but you want to be sure of that. Like I'm going to not only wade through your diatribes but also look at all your links? Life's too short. No matter how many speaker brands you've sold or installed all that says is that you know how to sell and install speakers. I have a friend who over the years has sold a dozen brands of cars. He doesn't claim that doing so makes him an automotive engineer.
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 3/10/13 at 12:04pm

OPs come on here all the time saying that they need this or that without realizing the consequences of those choices. I believe that it's important for this community to point out when a choice is not a good one. And it's often important to emphasize that something is a BAD IDEA rather strongly to get the message across, in case alternatives are possible.

Now I'm not an audio engineer, speaker designer, or audio installer, but it's not rocket science to know that in-ceiling speakers are a BAD IDEA, even with improvements in technology.

If you disagree, and you believe in-ceiling are generally an equivalent alternative to in-wall or regular speakers, then come out and say so and say why, but with something more than speaker companies have spent lots of money on R&D.

fwiw' again the speakers you recommended and the ones recommended by the avs salesperson "imo" are a little over budget for what the op's requires for his needs. to spend $10,000 or more for ceiling speakers in a 7.1 system for t.v listining and background music sounds a little bit much . just my 2 cents unless you can sweet talk him into really needing them like the guy who sold my sister hers.

+1 9 out of 10 people looking for advice in these forums dont have a clue on where to begin or what will give the best results for quality sound, and to get better options is a virtue i'd want if i was looking for and spending my hard earned cash on some speakers. just my 2 cents

1. Bill, that IS a flush mount. Also, the BG Radia model I spoke of & linked uses a PMD (Planar Magnetic Driver) as well as the boundary reflection behind the speaker, which yields an incredible "sweet spot". Far larger than a traditional dome product like the Triad.

2. Yeah, I wouldn't look through my links either if I were you. You're better off with your head in the sand.

As far as your car sales analogy, that's like saying the guy who engineer's a Nascar suspension can drive it better than the actual driver. Or the person who design's a scalpel, band aids, or a laser cutter can perform surgery. One does not necessarily lead into the other. After all, no matter how many speaker engineers shoulders you stand on, all you're really doing is buying drivers from Parts-Express and plugging wires into a box, right?

Starting tomorrow I'll start bringing your name up to the speaker engineers from the manufacturers we work with and when they ask "Who?", I'll be sure to tell the story about how you helped invent the gramophone or something. The legend of Pecos Bill reborn!