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TC Sounds LMS5400 18" VS Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference - Page 2

post #31 of 184
Hm. I'm sending 1100wrms to my Dayton and don't have a problem. It's in a slightly larger box at 4.3 cu ft. My amp gives me a hard clip light while the sub keeps on pounding away, seemingly distortion free. I have yet to hear the driver bottom out.

I believe this is just how the hobby works. There comes a point where you must make big leaps in price to get fairly small improvements in sound quality. If only the results could be linear!

If the UXL-18 and Dayton seem to have similar mounting diameter's you could always try the quad Daytons first and upgrade to the UXL-18's if you're not happy. You shouldn't have any trouble returning the Daytons.

How long have you had the Dayton driver? It took about 4 weeks or so for mine to loosen up and really get clearer in terms of sound quality. At first I was happy, but not blown away in terms of SQ. But after a few weeks of breaking it in, it's really cleaned up a TON.
post #32 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I don't think this is a factor in a discussion purely about sound quality
I'd agree with you if youre comparing a single driver vs another single driver.

But the whole reason we can even compare the Dayton to the LMS is because you can buy multiples of them to even out the playing field (sound quality). At which point space constraints might come into play.
post #33 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Hm. I'm sending 1100wrms to my Dayton and don't have a problem. It's in a slightly larger box at 4.3 cu ft. My amp gives me a hard clip light while the sub keeps on pounding away, seemingly distortion free. I have yet to hear the driver bottom out.

I believe this is just how the hobby works. There comes a point where you must make big leaps in price to get fairly small improvements in sound quality. If only the results could be linear!

If the UXL-18 and Dayton seem to have similar mounting diameter's you could always try the quad Daytons first and upgrade to the UXL-18's if you're not happy. You shouldn't have any trouble returning the Daytons.

How long have you had the Dayton driver? It took about 4 weeks or so for mine to loosen up and really get clearer in terms of sound quality. At first I was happy, but not blown away in terms of SQ. But after a few weeks of breaking it in, it's really cleaned up a TON.

What amp are you using?

I have had the daytons for a couple of months now and did notice them loosing up as time went on. Pretty big improvement after the first few weeks. Thanks for the suggestion. I am still on the fence about ordering the other 2 daytons. Choices, choices....
post #34 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

The data-bass measurements of the UXL-18 compared to the Dayton 18" do show it to have more output overall. But, wouldn't two Dayton's provide the same level of output, possible more, and allow for better in room response? N8, it almost seems as though you don't like the Dayton because it's so cheap. (Cheap is a relative word here. And this isn't an attack towards you N8, just a bit curious.)

Distortion is directly related to how close you're getting to the driver's limits. (Right?) While a $500 driver may be able to handle 1000 watts with less distortion than a $250 driver, wouldn't two of the $250 drivers have improved distortion with the same 1000 watts? That should be the case. However, I fully understand that it's hard to run a driver at half potential.

Yes 2 Daytons would be about the same as the UXL or LMS for that matter. There is nothing wrong with them, Dayton makes good stuff but get the Dayton and the UXL or LMS side by side and you'll see exactly what I mean when I say "cheap" and thats a relative term, I'm comparing it to the build quality of the UXL etc. Again, i know that there is a big price difference and thats not the goal of the dayton, it's meant to be price < performance, where the UXL and LMS are
Performance < price. The dayton is perfectly fine at it's price point, thats not even a debate, I've build with 4 of them now they are good drivers and perform well at their price point.
2 drivers bettering 1 driver in distortion is not always the case at all. If you need 2 of the same drivers to equal 1 of another and need to run both your drivers at near max to equal the 1, you're gonna have twice the distortion, as you now have 2 drivers near they max vs 1. It only works when you have enough that they all are working at around 1/2 - 3/4 load. If you are giving them only 1000 watts, you'd still likely need more drivers to equal the 1 better one (all depending of course)

I personally like the brute force approach. Lots of very good drivers and tons of power, thats the ticket if you can afford it! biggrin.gif
post #35 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

My problem with the dayton's is that I am not going to make room for 8 of them or even 6 of them and am a little worried that 4 of them won't get the job done.

Seriously?
post #36 of 184
Brent, 4 dayton will get the job done lol
post #37 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Brent, 4 dayton will get the job done lol
Not if he's anything like all you nutz that hang around here! biggrin.gif
post #38 of 184
Yeah, I meant to imply that 2 Daytons running at half power would have similarly low distortion levels (possibly lower) than the UXL. But, I didn't take into account that it may require full power to get those Daytons to the output level of the UXL, ultimately negating any improvement in distortion. lol. Though it seems that two Daytons at around 3/4 power would provide the same output levels as the UXL, on paper anyways. I only have experience with the Dayton here.

No doubt the price increase goes towards build quality of the sub itself. It's easy to see that in pictures alone. Also the weight of each driver is a good indication of quality levels.

I'm thinking that this is a pretty high-brow topic in terms of home theater subs and bass. As most people seem to believe the Dayton and SI drivers to give better performance/SQ than the most well regarded ID subs. (Not on a price vs. performance basis, but strictly performance.) And we are here talking about drivers that are said to greatly outperform the Dayton and SI. Ha.

I agree that 4 Daytons would get the job done.
post #39 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Not if he's anything like all you nutz that hang around here! biggrin.gif

Just you wait, I'm gonna run both my G-horns (when they are done in a week or so), my 4 x 21's and my 6 x 18's all at once and actually rip a hole in the universe hahaha It's a good thing I have 9 amps in storage hahahaha

But seriously, I'm gonna kill us all........eek.gif
post #40 of 184
Thread Starter 
True about some of the nuts around here. hehe I could be one of them.
You guys think 4 will get the job done at about 600 watts per driver? This should give a fairly low distortion level since I will only be giving the driver 2/3 of its rated power level.
Or 4 at max power, max excursion and therefore max distortion?
post #41 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Just you wait, I'm gonna run both my G-horns (when they are done in a week or so), my 4 x 21's and my 6 x 18's all at once and actually rip a hole in the universe hahaha It's a good thing I have 9 amps in storage hahahaha

But seriously, I'm gonna kill us all........eek.gif

You'll be able to play the infamous "Black" note. 0Hz at 120db. lol
post #42 of 184
Thread Starter 
And now PE is out of stock on the dayton's until 4-10. Go figure. How do these manufactures make any money if they can't sell anything? Maybe its just a big plot to kill stock levels on everything else and force us to buy the $1000 LMS drivers?
post #43 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

True about some of the nuts around here. hehe I could be one of them.
You guys think 4 will get the job done at about 600 watts per driver? This should give a fairly low distortion level since I will only be giving the driver 2/3 of its rated power level.
Or 4 at max power, max excursion and therefore max distortion?

You'll be fine man, that will give you tons of output. Even at full power, they will still be fine.
post #44 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

You'll be able to play the infamous "Black" note. 0Hz at 120db. lol

Now you're talking!!! biggrin.gif
post #45 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

You'll be fine man, that will give you tons of output. Even at full power, they will still be fine.

I am after quality output. I have decent output now just not as tight and clean as I would like.
post #46 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

I am after quality output. I have decent output now just not as tight and clean as I would like.

Compared to what?
post #47 of 184
Thread Starter 
Not sure if you want me to compare output or quality. Either way I would compare the output or quality to the SVS PB-13 Ultra that I just sent back. Output was maybe slightly higher with the 18's and sounded better in the mid to upper bass region where the SVS absolutely dominated the 18's in the lower region for tightness and quality at slightly higher volume levels. The 18's sound pretty good all the way around if I don't get too carried away but at my HT listening levels which aren't ridiculous, there is a lot more distortion than I would like. Basically I know I can get cleaner tighter bass because I can hear its there at lower volume levels and have heard it out of other subs that I have had. So based on what I am hearing from you guys my best chance of getting the sound quality i want with these drivers would be to run 4 of them at lower power levels? Thanks for your help.
post #48 of 184
"I have decent output now just not as tight and clean as I would like."

check the room. modes?

then check the enclosure. q?

check the eq and integration with other speakers.

driver is last on the list.
post #49 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

Not sure if you want me to compare output or quality. Either way I would compare the output or quality to the SVS PB-13 Ultra that I just sent back. Output was maybe slightly higher with the 18's and sounded better in the mid to upper bass region where the SVS absolutely dominated the 18's in the lower region for tightness and quality at slightly higher volume levels. The 18's sound pretty good all the way around if I don't get too carried away but at my HT listening levels which aren't ridiculous, there is a lot more distortion than I would like. Basically I know I can get cleaner tighter bass because I can hear its there at lower volume levels and have heard it out of other subs that I have had. So based on what I am hearing from you guys my best chance of getting the sound quality i want with these drivers would be to run 4 of them at lower power levels? Thanks for your help.

To be honest, this sounds a bit strange. What enclosure are you using? It sounds to me like you may not be using the driver correctly.
post #50 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

To be honest, this sounds a bit strange. What enclosure are you using? It sounds to me like you may not be using the driver correctly.

Agreed, the Dayton drivers sound just like a Submersive to my ears (at low, medium, and high volumes) which sounds fantastic. Very slight difference, just a bit more "weight" to the sound but in a positive way, not a bloated boomy kind of sound at all. The issue must be with something other than the driver.
post #51 of 184
Thread Starter 
I have the drivers in separate 5 cu/ft boxes and by the time the bracing and driver is loaded I should be around 4.5 cu/ft. I have a peak of 6-8 db gain in the room around 40 hz that I have flattened out with the BFD by taking a cut per filter suggestions in REW with only 2 filters. I am flat to 20hz and transition nicely on the other end where my cross over is set to 80hz. I also added a highpass shelf filter dropping 6.5db at 20hz to protect the driver so that I was able to run a little more power in the mid range without bottoming it on the low end. I have ran either way and sound quality is not effected. I used the identical component and similar eq setup with the SVS so other than the inuke amp all other components are equal.

If I am looking at data-bass correctly for the dayton drivers as far and THD is concerned, am I not running them it to the point where I am easily exceeding 10% thd down low at least at the power levels I am running? Like I said at lower volumes I don't seem to notice the issue.

I am a pretty critical listener and am starting to think that I may be expecting too much out of this setup and may have to try something else for a first hand experience.

Thanks for everyone's help. I look forward to more replies.
post #52 of 184
Perhaps you really are just a bass head. Your room is smaller than mine, and a single Dayton 18 with 1100wrms(max) from a Crown XLS1000 practically tears my apartment apart. I have a non structural wall that actually flexes(slightly, but still cool) with ULF scenes.

The fact that you said your drivers actually bottom out with 1000w is a bit weird too. As I'm sure these drivers should take about 1500w or more before truly bottoming out. Have you tried running the subs with no eq period? Removing the BFD completely?
post #53 of 184
do you have audyssey or something that is boosting the snot out of the bottom end?

what svs are you comparing to?
post #54 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

You'll be able to play the infamous "Black" note. 0Hz at 120db. lol

Only 120dB?

Pfft.


tongue.gif
post #55 of 184
I may very well have a space where I'll need another pair of these down the road, but I certainly don't in my current ~3500 cubes.



This is AVS DIY so I've learned to keep my mouth shut when it comes to what I believe to be absurd cost, time, and space expenditures to gain 3 dbs but your apparent "dilemma" got my goat, sorry.

First, the Dayton's are not some Mickey Mouse drivers. Yep, they're not an UXL or Ultra, but what is on this sphere we call earth...never mind at 1/2 or 1/4 the price?

Second, I haven't closely examined your space or listening habits/expectations, but I suppose I'd bet that neither will (likely) exceed what 4 of these can- very cleanly- produce. I have my quad being pushed by a very healthy Crown xti 4002 and have yet to hear a bad noise out of any of them at ~130db levels. Believe it.

I know some in these parts want lower (sub 10hz) and louder (130+ dbs)- and some want output they'll never even USE (I've yet to hear what overkill sounds like, but I've heard it's great for sleeping at night- ummm ok) good for them...us mere mortals will suffer I suppose, for a weekends worth of work and $1500, I know I can live with my choice.

Good luck.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 3/12/13 at 7:01pm
post #56 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Perhaps you really are just a bass head. Your room is smaller than mine, and a single Dayton 18 with 1100wrms(max) from a Crown XLS1000 practically tears my apartment apart. I have a non structural wall that actually flexes(slightly, but still cool) with ULF scenes.

The fact that you said your drivers actually bottom out with 1000w is a bit weird too. As I'm sure these drivers should take about 1500w or more before truly bottoming out. Have you tried running the subs with no eq period? Removing the BFD completely?

I wish I could say I got the response you did, I do have things shaking pretty good and pictures on the walls rattling but nothing to serious to me anyways. Definitely a big improvement over the pair of 10" commercial subs I used to run. I have a buddy with a pair of tempest 15's and an ep2500. I will have him come back over again and see what he thinks again now that everything is setup. I should go listen to his setup again too.

The amp I am using is quite a bit more powerful than the crown you are using. The inuke 6000 specs from behringer are 3000w per channel at 4 ohms and has been actually measured to provide 1800 watts at 4ohms per channel. So even though I have the amp turned down it may very well be getting 1500 actual watts per driver. I don't have a way to measure to be sure but can run the amp at just over half gain and still bottom. Now to limit that issue I run the amp gain at max and use a lot less gain from the receiver. Either method gave me the same sound results.

I has been a while since I ran without the BFD. I have ran multiple times with BFD in bypass mode. I will try a direction connection to my receiver just to see if any gains.
post #57 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

do you have audyssey or something that is boosting the snot out of the bottom end?

what svs are you comparing to?

I am not using any auto tuning below my cross over of 80hz and have verified that by resetting receiver to factory settings an then remeasuring. Same results. I really think I am putting too much juice to it. Both drivers bottom at almost the exact same time so at least they are consistent.
post #58 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I may very well have a space where I'll need another pair of these down the road, but I certainly don't in my current ~3500 cubes.



This is AVS DIY so I've learned to keep my mouth shut when it comes to what I believe to be absurd cost, time, and space expenditures to gain 3 dbs but your apparent "dilemma" got my goat, sorry.

First, the Dayton's are not some Mickey Mouse drivers. Yep, they're not an UXL or Ultra, but what is on this sphere we call earth...never mind at 1/2 or 1/4 the price?

Second, I haven't closely examined your space or listening habits/expectations, but I suppose I'd bet that neither will (likely) exceed what 4 of these can- very cleanly- produce. I have my quad being pushed by a very healthy Crown xti 4002 and have yet to hear a bad noise out of any of them at ~130db levels. Believe it.

I know some in these parts want lower (sub 10hz) and louder (130+ dbs)- and some want output they'll never even USE (I've yet to hear what overkill sounds like, but I've heard it's great for sleeping at night- ummm ok) good for them...us mere mortals will suffer I suppose, for a weekends worth of work and $1500, I know I can live with my choice.

Good luck.

James

Thanks for the input. Your setup looks great. I agree that 4 drivers should be enough I just want to be sure. How many cubes and what size are those boxes?
post #59 of 184
Brent, do you have an omnimic and if not can you post room pictures? If you have already posted this info sorry, I haven't followed the whole thread.
post #60 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I may very well have a space where I'll need another pair of these down the road, but I certainly don't in my current ~3500 cubes.



This is AVS DIY so I've learned to keep my mouth shut when it comes to what I believe to be absurd cost, time, and space expenditures to gain 3 dbs but your apparent "dilemma" got my goat, sorry.

First, the Dayton's are not some Mickey Mouse drivers. Yep, they're not an UXL or Ultra, but what is on this sphere we call earth...never mind at 1/2 or 1/4 the price?

Second, I haven't closely examined your space or listening habits/expectations, but I suppose I'd bet that neither will (likely) exceed what 4 of these can- very cleanly- produce. I have my quad being pushed by a very healthy Crown xti 4002 and have yet to hear a bad noise out of any of them at ~130db levels. Believe it.

I know some in these parts want lower (sub 10hz) and louder (130+ dbs)- and some want output they'll never even USE (I've yet to hear what overkill sounds like, but I've heard it's great for sleeping at night- ummm ok) good for them...us mere mortals will suffer I suppose, for a weekends worth of work and $1500, I know I can live with my choice.

Good luck.

James

Haha, James you crack me up!! biggrin.gif You used to say the same thing when you had a single Captivator and then you switched to 4 18"s!!!

I think you also have the virus (although maybe a weaker strain) that has spread to many here but at least you have the good sense to fight it!! smile.gif

I'm kidding, but I do think in my room there are more advantages to going sub crazy than just output. I am loving how the bass sounds in my room with 4 sub locations. I couldn't localize the bass before from my seated position but now it sounds so much smoother and like the bass is everywhere. It's especially cool if I'm doing a workout and wandering around the room in between sets. Before the bass would sound different as I moved and would get much louder if I got close to one of the subs. Now the bass sounds the same everywhere I move in the room and I can walk right up to a sub and I can't tell the bass is coming from it.

BTW, I am NOT saying that you need 4 locations in your room, my room benefits from it but yours may not. Also I am jealous of your inert cabinets my singles are anything but.

I've told you before, but I love how your DIY dual opposed subs look, great job man. I know first hand how dual opposed Dayton's sound, so I know you are happy with their sound. Basically you have more than 2 Submersives with sound quality that is just as good - nice. smile.gif Such a perfect fit up front too.
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