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Help - Hsu Package vs. Atlantic Technology 4400

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
I need some help on my surround sound system. I posted a while ago looking at thoughts about Crystal Acoustics 7.1 THX home theater vs. AT 4400. I received a lot of feedback that pointed to other vendors entirely which I am grateful fore. I have a 2200 cubic feet room that the system will go in with one wall open to a kitchen and dining room; so total open space is greater. I'm trying to keep a budget around $3000 but can go a bit higher. I will use the system for more moving watching the music, but it will still be used for music.

So, I have been considering some of the Hsu packages, AT 4400 with a SVS or Hsu sub, and still considering the Crystal Acoustics 7.1. However, the Crystal Acoustics is barely in the running anymore due to the limited information / reviews and to be honest the center channel looks like it could possibly block part of my Pioneer plasma with the tweeter.

I've read great reviews for the AT 4400 and I'm thinking about adding a SVS SB12 NSB, SVS PB1000, SVS SB1000, Hsu VTF-3 MK 4, or the Hsu VTF-15H. However, I'm mostly considering the SVS subs here to keep cost at the right level. Any thoughts on which subs will provide the best "bang for the buck?" It looks like the SVS win in this area but I don't want to sacrifice too much quality sound for $$$.

I am considering a number of the Hsu pre-packages including the Ultra 15, Hybrid 15, Hybrid 3, and Hybrid 2. For the Hybrid 2 and 3, I could probably purchase 2 subs (one in package + 1). I know for sure I can swing the Hybrid 2 with an extra sub. i could possibly add the MBM-12 MK 2 Mid bass to all the packages at least the Hybrid 15, 3, 2, but likely could swing to add to the ultra 15. My understanding is the MBM-12 MK 2 is better with music; if this is the case, I'm not so worried about it as I'm more focused on movies, but if it improved the system significantly, I will consider it as an add on or future purchase.

My concern with the Hsu packages is I read a some comments that the audio specifically from the center was not as crisp and precise. I definitely appreciate the cost savings that the Hsu packages presents.

Based on these two choices, which would be the best option for sound quality? I will admit from a purely aesthetic appearance, I prefer the AT 4400 system. But I am also considering cost too as I have some other purchases such upgrading my BD player. Would there be a noticeable difference in sound quality between the two systems? Which would you purchase and why? If your choice is the 4400 which of the SVS subs would you chose and would most listeners notice a difference between the SB12 NSB and the PB1000 (if so where would you notice the difference)? With the Hsu packages, the only difference appears to be the sub. Would most listeners notice a difference between the hybrid 2 sub and the ultra 15 or hybrid 15? If there would be a difference, what would you hear it in?

I know this is a lot of questions. I'm truly a novice at sound. This is my first upgrade from a 12 year old Dolby Digital Pioneer HTIB. I expect it will be many years before I revisit the task after making a purchase. Again, thanks for all of your help and thoughts!
post #2 of 31
Can't speak for the ATs, but HT did give it a good review. The Hsus I know well. I have a vtf3mk3 and a pair of the HB-1s in rosenut for my LR. I loved the sub and encouraged my dad to get a hybrid3 pkg, which he did after researching and reading all the good reviews. I was so impressed with the speakers I bought a pair. His room is huge, 40x20x20 with log walls and ceiling's peaked in the middle running the length of the room (cathedral?). Though the vtf15 would probably be more suited for that room, the vtf3 had no problems at all. The HB-1s are great with movies and music extending down into low 50s in my room. They play clean and loud. I'd love to get an MBM12 one day for either my room and/or his. Not really needed but think it'd only make things better. My room is ~3000cuft and open via walkways to the kitchen and hallway and the vtf3 is fantastic and usually left in Max Extension mode. At 2200cuft you'd be fine with that unless you just want more headroom, which I can perfectly understand. I've thought about getting a vtf15 and putting the vtf3 in my dad's room, but don't have the money right now. The newer vtf3mk4 will even let you run it in sealed mode with other adjustments to fine tune it to your liking which is also nice. Highly recommend the Hsus. Good luck with your search. It's a daunting task but a fun one that usually pays off better than expected in the end when you've done your homework.
Edited by ambesolman - 3/10/13 at 4:03pm
post #3 of 31
With 2200 cubic feet of space opening into other areas, I would recommend going with one of the 12" ported HSU or SVS subs, the PB-12-NSD or VTF-3 MK4. Better to make sure you have enough sub for the space. The 12" sealed subs by SVS and the SVS PB-1000 will have less max output and might be challenged keeping up with the rest of the system when watching blu-ray at higher volumes, depending on how loud you listen to your system and room acoustic factors.

Before getting the MBM-12, too, I would go for two of the 12" ported subs. Dual subs can create a smoother response throughout a wider listening area.

And in your size space, before getting the VTF-15H, I would try one of the 12" ported subs. You can always add a 2nd if you want more bass and get the benefit of the smoother response.
post #4 of 31
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input. I have read some great reviews for the Hsu system. The only less than stellar comments I have read are about the Hsu package was the center channel. What options are available to mount the speakers? I would prefer to stand-mount the speakers oppose to wall-mount.

Thanks for the input. So did you feel the VTF-3 goes low enough without porting? I do like to listen to music. My understanding is porting subs tend to impact the sound of music.
post #5 of 31
Thread Starter 
Thanks. Definitely appreciate the feedback. Would there be any advantage going with the VTF-15 or ULS-15 for my situation? Would it be overkill? I was looking at the Hsu packages that have both these subs... but it sounds like I might not see any benefit for the added cost.

Do you know if the Hsu speakers can be stand-mounted? I may have missed it on their site.

Again thanks for the feedback!
post #6 of 31
Unless you are a bass head who expects home audio to sound like a car stereo with a 400 watt 12" subwoofer, there's a good chance you could be very happy with one of those 12" ported subs in your space. Then if you still want more after you get it, get one more of the same sub. Dual subs have an SQ advantage over one slightly bigger sub.

Here's a review of the SVS PB12-NSD which rates it as good in spaces up to 5,000 cubic feet (rating at the end): http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/pb12-nsd
The VTF-3.4 will probably have a little more max output than the PB12-NSD. But the PB12 has amp protection circuitry that prevents it from being driven to distortion; it simply won't get any louder. It won't lose composure.

If you want the sealed sub sound, then I think it's better to get a sub designed as a sealed sub instead of a ported sub that can be plugged. However, something like the SVS PB12-NSD or the VTF-3.4 will sound very good for music (see the listening part of that review). This class of ported subs from SVS and HSU is probably not like anything you have heard before.

If you want the best sealed subs for music, you should also consider the Rythmik F15 or F15HP. Rythmik subs use a direct servo technology that helps to improve driver accuracy.

As far as stand mounting, almost any speaker can be put on a stand smile.gif
post #7 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

With 2200 cubic feet of space opening into other areas, I would recommend going with one of the 12" ported HSU or SVS subs, the PB-12-NSD or VTF-3 MK4. Better to make sure you have enough sub for the space. The 12" sealed subs by SVS and the SVS PB-1000 will have less max output and might be challenged keeping up with the rest of the system when watching blu-ray at higher volumes, depending on how loud you listen to your system and room acoustic factors.

Before getting the MBM-12, too, I would go for two of the 12" ported subs. Dual subs can create a smoother response throughout a wider listening area.

And in your size space, before getting the VTF-15H, I would try one of the 12" ported subs. You can always add a 2nd if you want more bass and get the benefit of the smoother response.

+1 to all that but the OP might also consider:
  • that the SB12-NSD is small and - at 35lbs - relatvely light, which I've found makes it quite easy to tuck behind a couch and/or set atop on an isolation platform. Audioholics rates it for up to 3000 cu/ft. My room is arguably around 2000 cu/ft and has openings to two three other rooms and I haven't maxxed it out, or even turned the gain up to 12 oclock.
  • the VTF-2 MK4 is rated by Hsu up to 4000 cu/ft and it's an animal. I didn't like the floor spikes on hardwood, but if you have carpet, it's worth considering. I'd also say that even in ported mode, it's just as musical as the SB12-NSD. Installed next to the couch like an end table, it hits HARD. I never turned the gain past 9 o'clock.

Edited by Resonate - 3/11/13 at 6:25am
post #8 of 31
Atlantic technology makes highly regarded stuff, their in-wall speakers have a great reputation. The Hsu speakers are good too. I don't find that the HC-1 is unclear at all, and I have three of them! The one guy I remember who did complain about the lack of clarity from his HC-1 had his mounted next to his ceiling, which is about the worst place you can place a speaker. But all horizontal speakers are design compromises, to understand why, read this. If you wanted to go with the Hsu package, you might just replace the HC-1 with an HB-1, it will save you some money, and if you are able to mount the HB-1 vertically it may have a better frequency response too. You can also use it sideways, but to do that you would want to rotate the horn tweeter 90 degrees, which is easy to do and only takes 5 minutes and a philips head screwdriver. Regardless of whichever speaker system you went with, I would go for the Hsu subs, they are a much higher bang for the buck when you look at it from a dollar per decibel perspective. A VTF3 would pound in that room, it would have multiple times the maximum output of any of the SVS subs you mentioned.
post #9 of 31
Thread Starter 
Any thoughts on which speakers are "better?" I've decided if I go with the Atlantic Technology 4400 series, I will purchase the SVS SB-12 NSD. For Hsu, it sounds like I should be looking at the Hybrid 3 package.

Thanks again for the input. I definitely appreciate all of your help.
post #10 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Atlantic technology makes highly regarded stuff, their in-wall speakers have a great reputation. The Hsu speakers are good too. I don't find that the HC-1 is unclear at all, and I have three of them! The one guy I remember who did complain about the lack of clarity from his HC-1 had his mounted next to his ceiling, which is about the worst place you can place a speaker. But all horizontal speakers are design compromises, to understand why, read this. If you wanted to go with the Hsu package, you might just replace the HC-1 with an HB-1, it will save you some money, and if you are able to mount the HB-1 vertically it may have a better frequency response too. You can also use it sideways, but to do that you would want to rotate the horn tweeter 90 degrees, which is easy to do and only takes 5 minutes and a philips head screwdriver. Regardless of whichever speaker system you went with, I would go for the Hsu subs, they are a much higher bang for the buck when you look at it from a dollar per decibel perspective. A VTF3 would pound in that room, it would have multiple times the maximum output of any of the SVS subs you mentioned.
+1 The HC-1 has no problem with clarity. I've never had to rewind to hear anything that was said during a movie or on TV at my dad's place. Probably most importantly, when I've watched things with him he's never had to either...and I have to repeat myself to him all the time!
post #11 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazyscotsman View Post

Any thoughts on which speakers are "better?" I've decided if I go with the Atlantic Technology 4400 series, I will purchase the SVS SB-12 NSD. For Hsu, it sounds like I should be looking at the Hybrid 3 package.

Thanks again for the input. I definitely appreciate all of your help.

The HB-1 MK2s sound great to me but I'm not familiar with the Atlantics. I glanced at this and the Atlantic fronts only go down to 80Hz vs the HB-1's 60Hz. 60Hz is preferable, crossover-wise. Also, sensitivity and power handling specs indicate the Hsus would have no problem getting louder (Atlantic 90db, 150w vs Hsu 92db, 250w). I dunno if you'll be shooting for 'reference level' in your room but I doubt the Atlantics would handle it, whereas the Hsus would. EDIT: Maybe. Depending on listener distance, the Hsus's max spl and your amp. See calculator here http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm
Edited by Resonate - 4/5/13 at 10:44am
post #12 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

...and the Atlantic fronts only go down to 80Hz vs the HB-1's 60Hz. 60Hz is preferable, crossover-wise.

Why is 60Hz preferable? You do realize that, out of these speakers, the less volume the speaker is capable of if they go down that low.

Triad speakers do not go below 80Hz in their line and nobody would say that they are not as good as speakers that go a little lower.
post #13 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

... I dunno if you'll be shooting for 'reference level' in your room but I doubt the Atlantics would handle it, whereas the Hsus would.

Again, you have no proof that this comment means absolutely anything. More guessing coming from you than anything of substantial use.
post #14 of 31
The Atlantic Tech 4400 system is THX Select certified and by the THX website, will reach THX reference level in a room up to 2000 cubic feet, so they should be able to be great in your size room.
post #15 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

that the SB12-NSD is small and - at 35lbs - relatvely light, which I've found makes it quite easy to tuck behind a couch and/or set atop on an isolation platform. Audioholics rates it for up to 3000 cu/ft. My room is arguably around 2000 cu/ft and has openings to two other rooms and I haven't maxxed it out, or even turned the gain up to 12 oclock.

I am certain that the Audioholics' ratings assume sealed rooms. There are too many factors involved for your experience that could be different for the OP to serve as proof that the SB12 will have enough output for his space. And what does your gain setting tell anyone? Gain sensitivity on the amp varies from sub to sub, and 12 o'clock might be near maxed out depending on what the receiver sub output level is.
post #16 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

The HB-1 MK2s sound great to me but I'm not familiar with the Atlantics. I glanced at this and the Atlantic fronts only go down to 80Hz vs the HB-1's 60Hz. 60Hz is preferable, crossover-wise. Also, sensitivity and power handling specs indicate the Hsus would have no problem getting louder (Atlantic 90db, 150w vs Hsu 92db, 250w). I dunno if you'll be shooting for 'reference level' in your room but I doubt the Atlantics would handle it, whereas the Hsus would.

The Hsu's sensitivity is rated for half space, they don't quite do 92 dB anechoicly, probably closer to 3 dB down from there. That being said, I would guess the Hsu's horn-loaded aluminum dome tweeter is a bit more powerful than the AT's silk dome. Neither speaker would be appropriate for chasing after THX Reference level in anything other than a small room.
post #17 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifor View Post

Why is 60Hz preferable? You do realize that, out of these speakers, the less volume the speaker is capable of if they go down that low.

There are several factors involved in the extension/output trade-off, in this case it doesn't mean the Hsu's can't get louder because they can go lower. 60 hz is good for a front stage, because that can allow you to cross over your sub lower if localization becomes an issue.
post #18 of 31
Both speaker systems are capable and comparable for output capabilites but their design should dictate which would be a better fit for your situation. How a speaker interacts in your room is important as you hear more of the room than you do the direct sound. With these two designs I can tell you from experience the AT4400 measures very well and has a good off axis response up to about 60 degrees. I haven't measured the HSU but being a horn design I can tell you it will not measure nearly as well off axis and neither will the design of its center channel. Depending on the application and how the room is treated one type of design might be preferred over the other.

Horns in general are more difficult to place to achieve good imaging and soundstage and often have a smaller sweet spot. In general if I were to recommend blind without seeing or measuring the room I'd go with the one that has the better off axis response which I'm sure is the AT4400 between these two choices. I'd also recommend 2 subs over 1 even if the 2 subs are less powerful. It is about getting more consistent bass for all your listeners. If you are only worried about one money seat then you can get by with one sub but seat to seat variances are pretty big with one sub and no amount of EQ can correct for how soundwaves interact in your room.
post #19 of 31
the HSU's will come close to reference level, depending on distance to the listening position... .

There is no problem with the HC1's clarity. I have the equivalent of the hybrid 3, 5.1 system, but with the last generation , mk3 sub x 2. The speakers are all excellent, IMO. My room is 12.3 ' x 14.3 ' x 7 ' 10 " , but open via stairwell to the entire 2nd floor... anyway, the speakers' performance depends more on your listening distance, and the subs (lower frequencies) performance depends more on the entire cubic volume of the (entire) listening space... subs don't care about ' the listening area inside a larger room'... you have to look at the total space. So I think either speaker system could potentially work... I've never heard the AT's, but I'll agree the HSU's sound great.

Sub(s)... no such thing as too much, more capable = more headroom, less stress. You can always turn them down... you can't always turn them up more... if they're at their limits eek.gif

The HB1's are capable below 60 hz. That is their +/- 2 db measurement. They do go lower, with authority, in my experience.... I took a pair on vacation once... different story... rolleyes.gif

this is all IMO, of course, and YMMV
Joseph
post #20 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifor View Post

The Atlantic Tech 4400 system is THX Select certified and by the THX website, will reach THX reference level in a room up to 2000 cubic feet, so they should be able to be great in your size room.

I did not know about the THX certification for the Atlantics; I read here that the Hsu's need about 134 watts apiece to reach reference at 12' and assumed that both speakers' sensitivity was rated the same way. EDIT: nope nevermind anyway it's a theoretical 267w apiece for the HB-1 Mk2, which is 17w beyond it's 250w rating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifor View Post

Why is 60Hz preferable?

It is my understanding that given the crossover slope for an 80Hz subwoofer crossover point set in the receiver, it is desirable for a speaker to play lower than 80Hz (i.e. 60Hz) and a subwoofer to play above 80Hz (i.e. 100Hz) to allow a seamless 'crossfade' transition between speaker and subwoofer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I am certain that the Audioholics' ratings assume sealed rooms. There are too many factors involved for your experience that could be different for the OP to serve as proof that the SB12 will have enough output for his space. And what does your gain setting tell anyone? Gain sensitivity on the amp varies from sub to sub, and 12 o'clock might be near maxed out depending on what the receiver sub output level is.

All good points^ Fwiw here is my room and on those two subs I mentioned, my input level has been 0.0dB from a Marantz receiver. I recommend that the OP check out the 'Placement' section in this Hsu Subwoofer Owner's Guide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Neither speaker would be appropriate for chasing after THX Reference level in anything other than a small room.

Good to know.
Edited by Resonate - 3/19/13 at 3:09pm
post #21 of 31
Thread Starter 
Thanks again everyone for your feedback. It gives me a lot to think over, but I must admit.... I'm probably just as equally unsure which way to go. I definitely would like to hit THX reference even if I rarely listen at that setting.. it would be good know it can and for the times that I choose to do so. But it sounds in my environment neither systems (Hsu or AT 4400) will meet this desire.

Any suggestions on a package that would get me to a THX reference level for around $2500 to $3000?
post #22 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazyscotsman View Post

Thanks again everyone for your feedback. It gives me a lot to think over, but I must admit.... I'm probably just as equally unsure which way to go. I definitely would like to hit THX reference even if I rarely listen at that setting.. it would be good know it can and for the times that I choose to do so. But it sounds in my environment neither systems (Hsu or AT 4400) will meet this desire.

Any suggestions on a package that would get me to a THX reference level for around $2500 to $3000?
You should look at this list of speakers that'll play at reference level. Hsu is on it...
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387083/list-of-reference-level-high-sensitivity-spl-speakers
post #23 of 31
I wouldn't call that a conclusive list nor would I call it accurate. It ranks the HSU above a Triad Gold LCR or Genelec 1038. Sorry, not even in the same league. These are not real measurements and extrapolated from manufacturer specs. Who knows how the manufacturers rated these specs. Some are real and some are marketing. Manufacturers don't all measure sensitivity the same and power handling the same. Just go to the computer section and see something like this.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16836131026

350 watts, yeah right! Rated PMPO Peak Momentary performance output or Peak Music Power Output. This means they can handle 350 watts for some very short period of time. Probably a millisecond or less. I'm sure if you gave them 350 real watts for even a second they would go up in smoke. I'm not saying HSU or AT is not accurate but there are some definite discrepancies in that list.

If you go by HSU specs and account for some room gain it MIGHT reach reference at 12ft with 250 watts but there would be no headroom. You want something to reach a given level effortlessly and not pushing the limits of the speakers. In your room go for speakers that are going to sound good and have decent output. Remember reference is very loud and it sounds like you will not use it very often. I'd get something that will perform in my environment for what I use the majority of the time. A Chevy Suburban and Corvette will both go 100mph but which do you want to be in going that speed? Now if I could own both that's a different story:) In the HT world the Corvette is a dedicated room.
post #24 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazyscotsman View Post

Thanks again everyone for your feedback. It gives me a lot to think over, but I must admit.... I'm probably just as equally unsure which way to go. I definitely would like to hit THX reference even if I rarely listen at that setting.. it would be good know it can and for the times that I choose to do so. But it sounds in my environment neither systems (Hsu or AT 4400) will meet this desire.

I don't get the point of trying to reach reference. Mine doesn't, and it gets plenty loud. A lot of people here on AVS have systems that don't reach reference, and they seem pretty happy with it. I'd shoot for the best SQ you can get and forget reference as a target.

But if you do pursue it listen to what BobL said. Just because manufacturer specs indicate speakers might go that loud, doesn't mean they will or that they will sound good at that volume. And definitely it makes since to have the dedicated room with room treatments and do it right.

Also, getting a sub to play at reference in your space may eat up a good bit of your budget.
post #25 of 31
+1 on all points
post #26 of 31
I have several AT speakers and I'm quite happy with them. Not to say that HSU is bad by any means but I would think that the AT's could out outperform them handily. Any of the subs you're looking at will perform well. But if you want some really powerful bass, then I would get the largest ported sub your budget can afford. Your room not being a sealed room will lose a lot of bass energy to the other rooms.
post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazyscotsman View Post

Thanks again everyone for your feedback. It gives me a lot to think over, but I must admit.... I'm probably just as equally unsure which way to go. I definitely would like to hit THX reference even if I rarely listen at that setting.. it would be good know it can and for the times that I choose to do so. But it sounds in my environment neither systems (Hsu or AT 4400) will meet this desire.

Any suggestions on a package that would get me to a THX reference level for around $2500 to $3000?

You will have to raise your budget considerable if you want something that will hit true THX Reference levels. THX Ref subs alone would cost 2.5 to 3k. Double your budget, than you can get some JTR 228ht Noesis, that will do THX reference without breaking a sweat, and a pair of Rythmik FV15HP subs. I think these Pi four speakers might be up to the task as well. Like was mentioned above, the Hsu's might, depending on how close you are sitting to them, but you would have to give them the upper end of their power handling, and they probably wouldn't be able to do it very cleanly. The Hsu's can hold their composure at loud levels though, so they might make for decent, inexpensive surround speakers for a reference system.
post #28 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

You will have to raise your budget considerable if you want something that will hit true THX Reference levels. THX Ref subs alone would cost 2.5 to 3k. Double your budget, than you can get some JTR 228ht Noesis, that will do THX reference without breaking a sweat, and a pair of Rythmik FV15HP subs. I think these Pi four speakers might be up to the task as well.

fascinating.

I found some context for the HB-1 Mk2's inclusion in Eyleron's reference level speaker list:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Hsu HB-1

Yeah, a couple ways to look at this speaker. You won't achieve reference level easily. But you can, with 106% of its rated peak watts (500). Or, you can look at the 1/8 peak watts db column, which I think people have said indicates where compression starts (did they mean 1/8th db, or 1/8th peak watts?). It'll hit 98.7 db.
Still, useful to see, whether that means it's still a good buy (eg because you know you want to be at -10 db), or because you cross it off your list. Regardless, this speaker will certainly experience less compression than many speakers bandied about the forum!

and a corroborating account from Andrew Robinson's review:
Quote:
With a subwoofer in the chain, the HB-1 MK2 can easily play into the high 90dB range without breaking a sweat.
post #29 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonate View Post

fascinating.

I found some context for the HB-1 Mk2's inclusion in Eyleron's reference level speaker list:
and a corroborating account from Andrew Robinson's review:

Don't forget reference level is hitting 105dB at the MLP! I used to have the Hsus and thought they sounded pretty good! Actually thinking about getting them again and using them for surrounds.
post #30 of 31
Don't forget, for every 3 dB's you have to double the power so if the little speaker hits 92 with one watt, then you'll need 105 watts for reference level at one meter. Then I think you lose 5 dB's for every meter you're away from the speaker. So if you do the math, it's going to be really hard to hit reference at your LP.

I think my numbers are right but I was too lazy to look it all up. Anybody else feel free to correct m lazy math.
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