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16 x 18's in a 1500ft^3 Space - Popalock's Sub Build - Page 4

post #91 of 577
3/15/13 at 9:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Curious bro, how does the SMS-1 graph compare to the OM graph? They look pretty similar?

I'll try to post up the two graphs combined when I get the chance tomorrow.
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post #92 of 577
3/15/13 at 9:40pm
What is the difference between seated ear height and the tweeter axis?
And I'm sure I've missed it, but which 18's are you using?
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post #93 of 577
3/16/13 at 6:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'm not sure which one, I can't remember but it's the same on Kevin (mrsmithers) has. It didn't have a box, he made one for it.

Sounds interesting... I'm going to have to rifle through his threads/posts to see if he documented his miniDSP box build.
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post #94 of 577
3/16/13 at 6:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

If that's how you're doing it, then we need to talk...I left you a message anyways rolleyes.giftongue.gif I'll be home in about 30

I owe you a call back bro. Been uber busy all weekend. Non-stop. I'll holler tomorrow.
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post #95 of 577
3/16/13 at 6:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Curious bro, how does the SMS-1 graph compare to the OM graph? They look pretty similar?

Here man. They don't look terribly different in my opinion Does look like a small loss below 7Hz or so:

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post #96 of 577
3/16/13 at 8:07pm
12 and 45hz look a bit different.
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post #97 of 577
3/17/13 at 1:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Here man. They don't look terribly different in my opinion Does look like a small loss below 7Hz or so:

I was actually wondering how the graph on the actual SMS-1 unit compared to an OM one.
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post #98 of 577
3/17/13 at 1:45am
Subscribed. Gunna be fun watching this one! Loved the vid of the hair trick. Reminded me of my old car audio days when I had a Toyota Tacoma with a walled off extended cab. Four Fosgate 15s and 4,000 watts gave me 156.7 db at 42 hz. Could do a nice hair trick from outside the truck. Once I got into home theater about 10 years ago I found out its waaay harder to get high SPLs in a dedicated theater than in a tiny vehicle. Good luck man!
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post #99 of 577
3/17/13 at 2:01am
Wow, I've been slacking on my AVS updates lately. Umm..SUBSCRIBED!

Looking great so far. The upcoming additions will only add to the ridiculousness. biggrin.gif

It's a shame you don't have many other placement options to work with. I'd be willing to bet you could clean up those nulls moving some of the subs around. I guess that would be meaningless considering you will be doubling the drivers anyway shortly. Don't get too tied up in EQ for now as it will change anyway. tongue.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 3/17/13 at 2:08am
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post #100 of 577
3/17/13 at 5:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

12 and 45hz look a bit different.

Yeah, no doubt. It is nice to have the tweakability of the SMS though. I would assume I could come close to replicating the raw response from the AVR with the SMS, whereas that obviously would not be the case the other way around... <--- If that makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

I was actually wondering how the graph on the actual SMS-1 unit compared to an OM one.

Ohhhh, gotcha. Yeah, I'm going to have to re-run a measurement with both mics hooked up. I was too busy playing with the OM and didn't take the time to hook up the SMS mic. Try to get one posted up for you later today.
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post #101 of 577
3/17/13 at 6:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

Subscribed. Gunna be fun watching this one! Loved the vid of the hair trick. Reminded me of my old car audio days when I had a Toyota Tacoma with a walled off extended cab. Four Fosgate 15s and 4,000 watts gave me 156.7 db at 42 hz. Could do a nice hair trick from outside the truck. Once I got into home theater about 10 years ago I found out its waaay harder to get high SPLs in a dedicated theater than in a tiny vehicle. Good luck man!

I added a few videos to Post # 8. Nothing close to a hair trick, but it was rocking my space pretty good...

IRENE!!!!
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post #102 of 577
3/17/13 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Ohhhh, gotcha. Yeah, I'm going to have to re-run a measurement with both mics hooked up. I was too busy playing with the OM and didn't take the time to hook up the SMS mic. Try to get one posted up for you later today.
Thanks mang! I'm curious to see if you get the same results that I did when I tried that same comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I added a few videos to Post # 8. Nothing close to a hair trick, but it was rocking my space pretty good...

IRENE!!!!
I was laying in bed with the wifey while I played your clip. Soon as the first "Irene" gets shouted out my wife yells, "Mutha-F'n IRENE!!! lol

I've trained her well. biggrin.gif
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post #103 of 577
3/17/13 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I added a few videos to Post # 8. Nothing close to a hair trick, but it was rocking my space pretty good...

IRENE!!!!

Awesome man! Color me jealous!! Can't wait to get going on some DIY 18's.
Edited by Reddig - 3/17/13 at 2:44pm
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post #104 of 577
3/17/13 at 4:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

I have the 10x10 and read some of that sampling rate stuff you brought up (was over my head). But, why go with the 4x10 plug in instead of the 10x10? Also why worry about the xlr/Phoenix connectors when can use RCA? Just curious as to what I'm doing wrong if you're opting for things different than how I'm using it. I do have my LCRS hooked up to it instead of the Stewart EQs that came with my screen. The sampling could affect the higher frequencies of them though, correct? I can't hear above 14k-15k (am redownloading dog whistle now to confirm as my daughter could hear way higher than me but don't recall exactly where I stopped hearing but was low for sure) or so I don't think but like I said didn't really understand what y'all were talking about anyway.

Note, my 10x10 came with faulty power supply plug. Not surprising since about everything I've bought in past two years has had issues.

14.8k is where I stop being able to hear according to iPhone app

Sucks about your power supply man. Did you just pick one up a upgraded one from PE, or did miniDSP hook you up with a replacement?

In my particular case I will only be using 4 channels of amplification for subs in (essentially) two seperate locations. With that said, since the 4x10 plugin claims a higher samplung rate, I figure I would give that a try for now and "when" it comes time for expansion all I will have to fo is buy the 10x10 plugin since I already have the hardware... Thus approach seems like it makes sense to me.

If none of your LCR require bi/tri amplification and you are currently using only a single output for your subs, I would assume you could purchase the 4x10 plugin for $10 just to see if the higher sampling rate helps with the noise level in any regard. Not my intent to make you question your purchase as I'm confident the path you've taken is great and any potential "improvements" would most likely be minimal.

Alas, I'm not a miniDSP expert, so take my input with a grain of salt.

BTW, I'm planning on using the phoenix/xlr adapters because I already have a lot more xlr cables at my disposal. Also, the balanced approach will yeild a higher voltage.
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post #105 of 577
3/17/13 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Sucks about your power supply man. Did you just pick one up a upgraded one from PE, or did miniDSP hook you up with a replacement?

In my particular case I will only be using 4 channels of amplification for subs in (essentially) two seperate locations. With that said, since the 4x10 plugin claims a higher samplung rate, I figure I would give that a try for now and "when" it comes time for expansion all I will have to fo is buy the 10x10 plugin since I already have the hardware... Thus approach seems like it makes sense to me.

If none of your LCR require bi/tri amplification and you are currently using only a single output for your subs, I would assume you could purchase the 4x10 plugin for $10 just to see if the higher sampling rate helps with the noise level in any regard. Not my intent to make you question your purchase as I'm confident the path you've taken is great and any potential "improvements" would most likely be minimal.

Alas, I'm not a miniDSP expert, so take my input with a grain of salt.

BTW, I'm planning on using the phoenix/xlr adapters because I already have a lot more xlr cables at my disposal. Also, the balanced approach will yeild a higher voltage.

Thanks man! I'm ignorant to most of the mini's capabilities/functions so gotta ask questions to learn. That user manual isn't much.



Few questions.

1. Will running RCA out from avr/pre amp to mini Phoenix inputs help or hurt? They used example of iPod in manual and that's all I could find so dont know optimal connection.

2. How will using the Phoenix/xlr to our amps affect the amp (in my case fp10k) with 8v from the mini? That's a huge difference from factory default setting of 2v for RCA.

All in all if use Phoenix out to xlr in on the amp that will allow more headroom to raise the EQ 12 more dbs, correct?

Thanks again papalock.

Oh, and I didn't even contact them about the faulty power supply cord as I had a couple around the house to choose from. They don't even supply one with the non boxed units so figure they are as cheap as the ones I had laying around.
Edited by audiovideoholic - 3/17/13 at 9:44pm
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post #106 of 577
3/18/13 at 1:05am
Thread Starter 
Hey man,

Sorry it took me a few hours to get back to you. I see that you asked this over on the miniDSP thread, so I'll let them take care of it. Those guys know A LOT more than I do. biggrin.gif
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post #107 of 577
3/18/13 at 1:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Hey man,

Sorry it took me a few hours to get back to you. I see that you asked this over on the miniDSP thread, so I'll let them take care of it. Those guys know A LOT more than I do. biggrin.gif

Lol. I asked on every thread that thought would get an answer. Even on mini forum. Seems like you know just as much if not more than most on the mini thread as they still haven't answered a question about the difference in peak EQ adjustments versus sub EQ adjustments settings from over a week ago. Just figured you might know and our setups are similar. I'm not afraid to acknowledge when I'm ignorant to something so seek those I feel have answers or better understanding than I. I'm getting ready to send my avr to service center so will be without theater for week or two and just want to get cables while I'm down so that when it gets back I may be done tinkering other than my humming clone which is tolerable.

Sorry for the OT questions but when I saw how much thought and researching you've done figured I'd ask you.
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post #108 of 577
3/18/13 at 3:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Lol. I asked on every thread that thought would get an answer. Even on mini forum. Seems like you know just as much if not more than most on the mini thread as they still haven't answered a question about the difference in peak EQ adjustments versus sub EQ adjustments settings from over a week ago. Just figured you might know and our setups are similar. I'm not afraid to acknowledge when I'm ignorant to something so seek those I feel have answers or better understanding than I. I'm getting ready to send my avr to service center so will be without theater for week or two and just want to get cables while I'm down so that when it gets back I may be done tinkering other than my humming clone which is tolerable.

Sorry for the OT questions but when I saw how much thought and researching you've done figured I'd ask you.

Well, in that case... I'll go ahead and post up the response I was working on. I don't think this is off topic at all as I am still learning as well!

My response to your original questions are embedded below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Thanks man! I'm ignorant to most of the mini's capabilities/functions so gotta ask questions to learn. That user manual isn't much.


Few questions.

1. Will running RCA out from avr/pre amp to mini Phoenix inputs help or hurt? They used example of iPod in manual and that's all I could find so dont know optimal connection.

Should help. My AVR does not have balanced outputs, so I will using RCA out to Phoenix in. I actually already own a RCA to XLR adapter, so I will just purchase a XLR to Phoenix and be set.

2. How will using the Phoenix/xlr to our amps affect the amp (in my case fp10k) with 8v from the mini? That's a huge difference from factory default setting of 2v for RCA.

The 10x10HD indicates "up to" 8V, so if your AVR out supplies 2V (or whatever) expect your signal to be amplified by 2x to 4V by going balanced. From what I have researched, balanced should elimimate any potential noise issues.

All in all if use Phoenix out to xlr in on the amp that will allow more headroom to raise the EQ 12 more dbs, correct?

Great question. This is getting slightly to my experience limits, but I've always been programmed (going back to my car audio days) that a higher voltage signal (within reason) is better than a lower voltage signal. This (to me) would indicate that you would make more efficient use of the high SNR of the 10x10HD, thus allowing you to raise your EQ without introducing unwanted noise.

Thanks again papalock.

Oh, and I didn't even contact them about the faulty power supply cord as I had a couple around the house to choose from. They don't even supply one with the non boxed units so figure they are as cheap as the ones I had laying around.

Trust me man. I'm right there with you. I'd invite anyone to confirm my responses above.

Here is a quick video I found helpful.
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post #109 of 577
3/18/13 at 8:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

If none of your LCR require bi/tri amplification and you are currently using only a single output for your subs, I would assume you could purchase the 4x10 plugin for $10 just to see if the higher sampling rate helps with the noise level in any regard.

This is technically wrong.

The 4x10 is designed for two (2) Unbalanced/Balanced and two (2) Digital inputs. Based on my comment above, I was assuming the 4x10 plugin could accomodate 4 RCA inputs. That said, in your particular case I wouldn't even bother trying the 4x10 plugin with the 10x10.

I just officially dropped coin for the 10x10HD and the 10x10 plugin. Doneski.

Ok, with that said. How are you liking the remote functionality of the 10x10HD? Is it overall pretty convenient?
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post #110 of 577
3/18/13 at 1:55pm
Sub'd.

You must be doing something right....I just played your bass demo YouTube videos from my desktop PC and all three of my dogs immediately bolted out of the room - and that was reproduced bass!!!
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post #111 of 577
3/18/13 at 2:08pm
Popa,

Congrats for the build, looking really good!!!!
lf I ever pass by can I stop so you can rock the place and blow my ears open? biggrin.gif

thanks
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post #112 of 577
3/18/13 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

This is technically wrong.

The 4x10 is designed for two (2) Unbalanced/Balanced and two (2) Digital inputs. Based on my comment above, I was assuming the 4x10 plugin could accomodate 4 RCA inputs. That said, in your particular case I wouldn't even bother trying the 4x10 plugin with the 10x10.

I just officially dropped coin for the 10x10HD and the 10x10 plugin. Doneski.

Ok, with that said. How are you liking the remote functionality of the 10x10HD? Is it overall pretty convenient?

Thanks again!

Well, guess its official now. It will be there shortly!

Yeah I am running the subs on two outputs since avr has two outputs so couldn't use the 4x10 anyway unless took the LCRs out of the chain. Using two outputs is very noticable compared to using just one. It definitely gives the clones enough power that way. I'm just using it for the left enclosure that has 4 subs and the same for the right one, same as yours. I'm thinking a long time down the road it may be better to run the 4 outer most subs on one channel and the 4 most inner subs on another since that would get the most out of distance settings. Somebody has a thread on the similar situation.

I haven't even messed with the remote capabilities at all. I have the whole addition wired with grafik eyes and setup for irule but haven't came close to messing with it all. Still need to buy the gateways but all the remote wires are in place for any and everything. I just leave it turned on most of the time and only have one setting configured.
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post #113 of 577
3/18/13 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

lf I ever pass by can I stop so you can rock the place and blow my ears open? biggrin.gif

You won't need to stop by for an audition; you'll be able to feel that much bass from the airplane as you're flying overhead... tongue.gif
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post #114 of 577
3/18/13 at 5:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Sub'd.

You must be doing something right....I just played your bass demo YouTube videos from my desktop PC and all three of my dogs immediately bolted out of the room - and that was reproduced bass!!!

No way? I've never really even thought about the sound of the audio when I make those videos. I always try to do it just for the visual because I assume the audio will unquestionably sound like complete crap! What kind of computer speakers do you have man? haha...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Popa,

Congrats for the build, looking really good!!!!
lf I ever pass by can I stop so you can rock the place and blow my ears open? biggrin.gif

thanks

You, my good sir, are welcome ANYTIME! Seriously, if you or anyone else is in the DC area, just give me a holler.
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post #115 of 577
3/19/13 at 3:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Thanks again!

Well, guess its official now. It will be there shortly!

Yeah I am running the subs on two outputs since avr has two outputs so couldn't use the 4x10 anyway unless took the LCRs out of the chain. Using two outputs is very noticable compared to using just one. It definitely gives the clones enough power that way. I'm just using it for the left enclosure that has 4 subs and the same for the right one, same as yours. I'm thinking a long time down the road it may be better to run the 4 outer most subs on one channel and the 4 most inner subs on another since that would get the most out of distance settings. Somebody has a thread on the similar situation.

By power, do you mean signal? A notable difference huh? That's interesting... My AVR (Pio Elite SC-57) has two sub outputs, but I haven't found it useful as it simply replicates the same signal of the other output. Might have to give it a shot if I end up having signal issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

I haven't even messed with the remote capabilities at all. I have the whole addition wired with grafik eyes and setup for irule but haven't came close to messing with it all. Still need to buy the gateways but all the remote wires are in place for any and everything. I just leave it turned on most of the time and only have one setting configured.

Man, sounds like you are all wired up and ready to go! I find myself needing constant control of my bass. Nice to be able to press a button to change a present depending on whatever mood I'm in or if the wife starts to complain (doesn't happen often---yet).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

You won't need to stop by for an audition; you'll be able to feel that much bass from the airplane as you're flying overhead... tongue.gif

lol.... I wish. I'm betting 16 subs won't even crack my foundation like some of the other AVS members have done running single/dual subs.

biggrin.gif
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post #116 of 577
3/19/13 at 4:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post


Yeah I am running the subs on two outputs since avr has two outputs so couldn't use the 4x10 anyway unless took the LCRs out of the chain. Using two outputs is very noticable compared to using just one. It definitely gives the clones enough power that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

By power, do you mean signal? A notable difference huh? That's interesting... My AVR (Pio Elite SC-57) has two sub outputs, but I haven't found it useful as it simply replicates the same signal of the other output. Might have to give it a shot if I end up having signal issues.

AVH,

I just wanted to mention:

Most PEQ units have a max voltage spec because if you add significant boost to the signal the output voltage increases. So, I don't know if Mini means 2V max or what? In any case, the input sensitivity of the clone amps changes with the rear panel gain limit dip switch settings. If yours is set to the default (38dB), the range is limited to around o.5 to 1.2V driving a 4 ohm load. You might want to set the gain limit to a lower setting and use the FP gain control to dial in.

Pop,

What can I say? 16x18" in 1500 cubes... eek.gif That's a single 18" sub for every 94 cubes, which is approximately the volume of a standard 6' x 2' closet. 'Nuff said.

I posted in Carp's thread about my theory for room gain. I've tossed PVG out on it's ear and focussed on actual data. Thanks for posting yours. I added yours and Carp's to the short list for anyone interested:



As Josh and I have noticed over the years (and commented on), many larger rooms show a dip in the 10-15 Hz area and some rooms show a resonance peak from large frame boundaries (vs a room on slab), but the general Room Gain Profiles are (+/-) 2dB, starting in the 30s Hz. Data like this that I've collected over the years is what led me to designing 9 preset curves to mate sealed subs with rooms from a global standpoint rather than some infinitely different room dimension PVG theory.

The rooms are every size from your 1500 cubes to not's 6000 cubes.

Anyway, job well done and thanks for the input in this thread.
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post #117 of 577
3/19/13 at 4:27am
Bosso,

Very interesting graph. Have you checked your PM's here and elsewhere?

JSS
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post #118 of 577
3/19/13 at 6:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Pop,

What can I say? 16x18" in 1500 cubes... eek.gif That's a single 18" sub for every 94 cubes, which is approximately the volume of a standard 6' x 2' closet. 'Nuff said.

As Josh and I have noticed over the years (and commented on), many larger rooms show a dip in the 10-15 Hz area and some rooms show a resonance peak from large frame boundaries (vs a room on slab), but the general Room Gain Profiles are (+/-) 2dB, starting in the 30s Hz. Data like this that I've collected over the years is what led me to designing 9 preset curves to mate sealed subs with rooms from a global standpoint rather than some infinitely different room dimension PVG theory.

The rooms are every size from your 1500 cubes to not's 6000 cubes.

Anyway, job well done and thanks for the input in this thread.

Thanks boss. I read your comments on Carps thread. Very interesting! I'm looking forward to learning more about PVG and delving more and more into the scientific trenches of the hobby in the future.

Cool graph, looks like I am reaping the benefits of PVG for sure. Man, wish I wasn't color blind...

Quick question. Is this graph based on the measurements that I provided with my 8 subs up and running? Would you predict this curve would change once I have all subs integrated?

Also, if you note on Post #2, I've provided a sketch of my basement for reference. Don't want any undue props as my 1,500ft^3 space opens up to a hallway which flows into the rest of the basement. Seems like this may have an effect on the PVG curve you plotted for my space as well...

Thoughts?
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post #119 of 577
3/19/13 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Bosso,

Very interesting graph. Have you checked your PM's here and elsewhere?

JSS

Sorry, Doc, no I haven't. I pinged you via e-mail. LMK if you got it?
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post #120 of 577
3/19/13 at 7:44am
bosso,

pressure vessel gain is real and the theory is pretty good at describing the world, so to that extent it is also a useful theory.

linkwitz explains it here: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/enclosure-spl.gif

most real rooms are not perfectly rigid, so the gain tends to be a little less than the full 12db/oct.

depending on the nine options in your device, it may be good enough for most folks.

i thought 'not was crossing his subs at 10hz. did that change?

also, i noticed that you are using volume. "The rooms are every size from your 1500 cubes to not's 6000 cubes."

what you want to use is the 1/2 the long diagonal.
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