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What Would You Like to See in Your Next AVR? - Page 8

post #211 of 354
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Originally Posted by 802Diamond View Post

You would have me out of the game:
Different needs from different consumers, this wasn't meant to be some sort of full exclusion exercise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 802Diamond View Post

-HDMI pass through is irrelevant for me. I can't listen to the sound of my television (any television for that matter.) Anyway, if I have a nice amp and nice speakers (which i have) why on earth would I want to listen to the sound of a television?
The thought here is that you could access basic content for casual watching without having to power on an energy-hungry AVR and full-on surround setup to watch something like Netflix streaming off your Roku XDS with just display stereo sound. I know that I would use such a facility. Right now I accomplish this by using the component + L/R analogue audio out of my Roku XDS direct to my display and have a different activity setup for it on my Harmony 880 "Watch Basic Streaming" so it only turns on the Pioneer plasma and sets the input to the component video.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 802Diamond View Post

- It's just a specification, And a meaningless one for that matter is that so difficult to grasp...?
The point is that there is no way to do an apples-to-apples comparison between manufacturers when their methodology for measurement of rated watts/channel varies so widely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 802Diamond View Post

- And everytime you want to change sth you have to get up, while it's so easy to do with the RC?
I would think that the front-panel controls would be supplementary to any OSD configuration options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 802Diamond View Post

- Bluetooth Out seems nice, but I don't want to loose my jack for that and even want less to pay for it.
Bluetooth OUT streaming would make adding additional wireless zones VERY simple, assuming the range was possible. So having Bluetooth OUT could be multi-purpose by allowing multiple wireless headphone feeds, or to supply a signal to a wireless Bluetooth receiver. I'd envision the Bluetooth as being assignable to a number of different roles and sources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 802Diamond View Post

- I need a the very minimum at least three, but I skip an AVR if it only had three. Call me old fashioned.
I'm still hanging on my my mid-90's Laserdisc player with composite out for the 2 times a year I feel like breaking out a 12 inch shiny, and I still have a Malata region-free DVD player with component video. Beyond that everything is either HDMI, an analogue stereo pair or Toslink.
post #212 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

The trend I hate is 9.1/11.1 as instead of producing a quality set of amps they cram them with mediocre amps and yes I am fully aware I could buy separates but the main idea of a receiver I should not have to and remember not that long ago Denon,Onkyo and Pioneer were all producing AVR's in test reviews giving them credit for robust amps to drive all but the most demanding speakers.
Sometimes I think mfg's lose sight of things the majority of clients appreciate good 5.1/71 layout with quality room correction but they are not willing to turn their den or living room into a department store demo with speakers and separate amps stacked everywhere the small percentage that have dedicated theater rooms are fortunate and few on the grande scale of things and I hope they can keep the industry alive but for the rest of us they need to pay attention to our needs you know the people that actually buy in large quantities. A great example just look at the response of the mid level AVR's in the forum they outnumber by view and response.

+++1 -- The aesthetic of my environment is right now a 'hidden' 5.1 system that is pleasing even when the AVR is off. No way would I mess with that for slightly better immersion.
post #213 of 354
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

For this particular link in the chain, power has the biggest bearing on SQ than anything else within the "AVR". Why do you keep referring to room acoustics?

Nope. Room correction and dynamic loudness compensation* are far more relevant and material to sound quality than power for this particular link in the chain. Sure, one probably doesn't want a 10W/ch AVR. But 50W/ch or so and up, not much difference in actual use.

*for those of us who often enjoy music or other media at lower volume levels, at least
post #214 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Yes I failed to school the children on this. That is why you need headroom/reserve power. You're preaching to the choir

Looks like we got a lost ball in the tall weeds here...

Sir: you're creating a contention that doesn't exist. I and others here are not ignorant to what you're espousing, we're just disagreeing as to its general relevancy. MOST $1000+ AVRs (and many for less, still) deliver plenty of power for MOST applications and loudspeakers- yes even in 5/7/9 channel arrays. There are of course exceptions to this rule: large rooms, LOUD playback levels, inefficient loudspeakers or any combination of the aforementioned. If this is the case for you, purchase (an) external amplifier(s)...even though most won't provide you with much more than another 3-4dbs of output or (sigh) "headroom".

Pretty straightforward, really.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 3/19/13 at 10:24am
post #215 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Nope. Room correction and dynamic loudness compensation* are far more relevant and material to sound quality than power for this particular link in the chain. Sure, one probably doesn't want a 10W/ch AVR. But 50W/ch or so and up, not much difference in actual use.

*for those of us who often enjoy music or other media at lower volume levels, at least

Just chiming in to agree. Room correction makes a major difference, read enough high-end AVR reviews and gain enough personal experience working with them and it's clear they benefit from room correction. Also agreed on the issue of power; almost all of the power in a system should be in the subwoofers, bass requires lots of juice. The rest of the audio spectrum does not need megawatts to reproduce with authority, at least not in a home setting. 7.1 channels with 100+ watts/channel of honest power gets it done 95% of the time, as long as the subs can keep up.

I guess four independently controlled, balanced XLR subwoofer outputs would be my #1 most requested feature, if I could only have one. I'd be into a 7.4 receiver that took bass very seriously.
Edited by imagic - 3/19/13 at 10:32am
post #216 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post


I don't think everything has power issues. But I don't believe people when they say their 35 watt amp isn't clipping. maybe they just hanve't heard an ABX test

Points out that a clipping indicator or better yet a set of peak power meters might be a valuable feature for an AVR.
post #217 of 354
I have the ability to VERY accurately measure how much current my gear is pulling out of the wall and it never ceases to amaze me how relatively insignificant the power draws are- even with ~100db playback levels.

The 130+db bass crowd would be seeing very different figures though, to be sure.


James
post #218 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

... The definition of a "receiver" continues to evolve within this hobby and the fact that some want less under the (completely unproven) assumption that sound quality improves as features get stripped- or worse, the "I don't need them so no one else does" crowd is not going change that evolution. And again, crucially, those stripped devices already exist, so they're not without options.
...

+1 Couldn't have phrased it any better... More specs (and connections) doesn't necessarily hurt....
post #219 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I have the ability to VERY accurately measure how much current my gear is pulling out of the wall and it never ceases to amaze me how relatively insignificant the power draws are- even with ~100db playback levels.

The 130+db bass crowd would be seeing very different figures though, to be sure.

Kill-a-watt devices are pretty cheap (< $30) readily available (my local big box home improvement store) and do that job admirably:

http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1363722378&sr=1-1&keywords=kill+a+watt

post #220 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrehdd View Post

Which Bluetooth? The newest version supported by Apple or the older version that is more standard? Sounds like one would be happy to simply upgrade Bluetooth by removing the old and popping in the new standard rather than having to start all over again to get that feature. Bluetooth 4 is the way of the future yet AVR is basically behind.

That's something that might make sense to be upgradable via a USB dongle. Still no application that makes sense for high bandwidth cards...
post #221 of 354
Definitely, better room correction features. YPAO is useless, especially when compared to Audessey.
post #222 of 354
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Points out that a clipping indicator or better yet a set of peak power meters might be a valuable feature for an AVR.
+1
post #223 of 354
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Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Definitely, better room correction features
Let's see what the gifted amateurs among us can do. Modularize the room correction system, and make it open source.
post #224 of 354
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


*for those of us who often enjoy music or other media at lower volume levels, at least

Agreed, that was my point. You were previously disagreeing with this earlier
post #225 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

100+ watts/channel of honest power gets it done 95% of the time, as long as the subs can keep up.

So you agree with me then. If 100 watts only gets it done 95% of the time then what will 35-50 watts do. My point taken
Edited by snyderkv - 3/20/13 at 12:06am
post #226 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

There are of course exceptions to this rule: large rooms, LOUD playback levels, inefficient loudspeakers or any combination of the aforementioned.
James

Apparently not straight forward as this is all I was trying to say yet people wanted to argue against it. Now you're all coming around
post #227 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Apparently not straight forward as this is all I was trying to say yet people wanted to argue against it. Now you're all coming around
Not all. I think you are not taking into account all the "if"s in your reading. If you want twice the loudness you need a lot more power -- true enough -- but what if you don't want twice the loudness. Then you don't. I read the Alan Lofft article you referred to earlier, and I see that he argues you need a lot of power to get the same effect as standing right beside a concert grand piano or in the midst of rock band. I guess that's true, but that is very loud. Do you really want that? I don't. The basic point that others are trying to convince you of is that once you have enough power to play music as loud as you want, further increases of power give you no improvement. It's a simple point: more power doesn't necessarily improve sound quality.
post #228 of 354
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

The basic point that others are trying to convince you of is that once you have enough power to play music as loud as you want, .

Agreed, you said, "once you have enough power", then everything else comes later. I agree and I did mention that I was a minority that needed amps with true "measured" power to handle my specific setup.

Not arguing
post #229 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Quote:
BUT! power would be the most important thing to figure out first don't you think. I don't buy a race car without knowing how much power it's making first. Once that's taken care of, sure, configure your Audyssey at that point. But it's secondary to me until I settle on something with enough power to handle my preferred listening level, speakers, source etc otherwise Audyssey won't do you any good

This is just common sense for anyone knowledgable in AVR/amps. Many in this thread including myself have said that if ones amp is not underpowered and is not clipping then amp power is a non issue. But you just keep posting the same thing just worded differently.

Quote:
I don't think everything has power issues. But I don't believe people when they say their 35 watt amp isn't clipping. maybe they just hanve't heard an ABX test.

I guess then you have trust issues wink.gif. How could you possibly know that when someone has a 35 wpc amp that it is clipping? Do you know what size room, the sensitivity of the speakers and the listening volume tastes of all 35 wpc amp owners? That is just a silly statement to make smile.gif

You are wrong when you say you are "Not arguing". As you will not let this go even though others have acknowledged that an under powered amp that is clipping does effect SQ. You seem to have this belief that you are schooling those in this thread with information that is just basic common knowledge. Maybe it is you that will finally "come around" wink.gif.

Bill
post #230 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Not all. I think you are not taking into account all the "if"s in your reading. If you want twice the loudness you need a lot more power -- true enough -- but what if you don't want twice the loudness. Then you don't. I read the Alan Lofft article you referred to earlier, and I see that he argues you need a lot of power to get the same effect as standing right beside a concert grand piano or in the midst of rock band. I guess that's true, but that is very loud. Do you really want that? I don't. The basic point that others are trying to convince you of is that once you have enough power to play music as loud as you want, further increases of power give you no improvement. It's a simple point: more power doesn't necessarily improve sound quality.

If you don't want the loudness or if you do want the loudness there is a volume control on all AVR's. Wanting more power is no different than wanting more features. I doubt that the majority really need or want all the features that are being crammed into AVR's today.
Once you have enough features further additions will not be beneficial. Another simple point: More features are useless for those who do not use them.
post #231 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Let's see what the gifted amateurs among us can do. Modularize the room correction system, and make it open source.

That's why I suggested support for VST effects and ASIO. Audyssey fans could run ARC-2 and have editable results. I would require an entire embedded PC to run, but probably just an Ultrabook's worth.
post #232 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

So you agree with me then. If 100 watts only gets it done 95% of the time then what will 35-50 watts do. My point taken

I'd say 100 watts gets it "done" 98% of the time and 50 watts, 96%.

Again, if you're in the 2-4% purchase an amplifier for those other 3-4 dbs you cannot live without.

This is humorous to me.

James
post #233 of 354
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That's why I suggested support for VST effects and ASIO. Audyssey fans could run ARC-2 and have editable results. I would require an entire embedded PC to run, but probably just an Ultrabook's worth.

That would actually be pretty sweet.
post #234 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Apparently not straight forward as this is all I was trying to say yet people wanted to argue against it. Now you're all coming around

LMAO. Whatever helps you sleep at night.


James
post #235 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

So you agree with me then. If 100 watts only gets it done 95% of the time then what will 35-50 watts do. My point taken

I'd say 100 watts gets it "done" 98% of the time and 50 watts, 96%.

Again, if you're in the 2-4% purchase an amplifier for those other 3-4 dbs you cannot live without.

I find it ironic that virtually all AVRs and virtually all of the booster amps that people buy to "make them sound better" fall into a range of powers that is +/- 3 dB of 100 watts, more specifically 50 watts to 200 watts.

For grins, stand in front of your AVR with your remote where you can listen reasonably well and read its volume display (in dB) as you adjust the volume over a +/- 3dB range and ask yourself what you are willing to pay for the difference.

I find it interesting that virtually every power amp for pro audio has clipping indicator(s) , While I know of no AVRs that have them. With pro amps it is not uncommon to run amps into clipping. The clipping indicator is a good marketing tool. When it is on too much the system sounds like crap and it is time for a more powerful and probably more expensive power amp. Apparently that is actually quite rare with AVRs as no manufacturer sees clipping indicators as a good marketing tool for them.
post #236 of 354
I would love to see normal and stable 2-4 Ohm speaker impedance support, thus much improved power supplies!
post #237 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I find it ironic that virtually all AVRs and virtually all of the booster amps that people buy to "make them sound better" fall into a range of powers that is +/- 3 dB of 100 watts, more specifically 50 watts to 200 watts.

For grins, stand in front of your AVR with your remote where you can listen reasonably well and read its volume display (in dB) as you adjust the volume over a +/- 3dB range and ask yourself what you are willing to pay for the difference.

I find it interesting that virtually every power amp for pro audio has clipping indicator(s) , While I know of no AVRs that have them. With pro amps it is not uncommon to run amps into clipping. The clipping indicator is a good marketing tool. When it is on too much the system sounds like crap and it is time for a more powerful and probably more expensive power amp. Apparently that is actually quite rare with AVRs as no manufacturer sees clipping indicators as a good marketing tool for them.
Exactly because then they would actually have to produce AVR's with their advertised wattage note a few actually do but most of the time its their flagship which envolves buying things you don't want or need in order to get the things you do.
post #238 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by techblogpool View Post

I would love to see normal and stable 2-4 Ohm speaker impedance support, thus much improved power supplies!
The future approaches. My Pioneer sc1522 AVR spec says it drives 4 ohms, 1kHz, 1% thd, 1-2 channels driven, at 210 W.
post #239 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by crussader View Post

No amps. Just pre-outs.

I agree with this with the following wish. Dual 9.2 pre-outs for separate multi-room applications or elaborate Audessy setups. And a low power (25w/channel)...yet extremely stable & clean 7.1 internal amp to handle nothing but headphones. No speaker connectors on the rear...but multi headphone jacks...1 on front...others on the rear to handle any type male headset pin...from XBox 360, to PC, to normal stereo. And place them in close proximity to USB 3.0 connectors for HTPC use. 6 HDMI inputs and at least 3 HDMI outputs for a wide array of devices and multi room & display apps. And final...in-path Darbee video processor HDMI outputs directly to displays.
post #240 of 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Exactly because then they would actually have to produce AVR's with their advertised wattage note a few actually do but most of the time its their flagship which envolves buying things you don't want or need in order to get the things you do.

This got me thinking

I'd like a built to order AVR withou all the features and outputs I don't want. Might be cheaper too.
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