AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › What Would You Like to See in Your Next AVR?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

What Would You Like to See in Your Next AVR? - Page 9

post #241 of 331
3/20/13 at 12:30pm
If we can't have full 7.1 pre-outs trickle down to lower-end receivers, how about 3.1 pre-outs for LCR? Part of the reason I like an AVR as a pre-pro is that the internal amps are perfect for a set of easy-to-drive surrounds. Let me add better amplification for my front sound stage.

At least 2.1 preouts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by weez82 View Post

Dont know if anyone posted this but I would love to have a small form factor AVR. Something like 10" x 5' x 8' (w x h x d) or smaller. Just giving random dimensions as an example smile.gif. But I doubt it's even possible or if it is, there is just no market for it frown.gif

This, too. Smaller dimensions where possible. These don't have to be such honking beasts - especially those with Class D amps.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #242 of 331
3/20/13 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post


I don't think everything has power issues. But I don't believe people when they say their 35 watt amp isn't clipping. maybe they just hanve't heard an ABX test

Points out that a clipping indicator or better yet a set of peak power meters might be a valuable feature for an AVR.

Agreed. I'd pay an extra grand for an AVR with everything my Anthem box has, but a look more like this, with a small screen in place of the gaudily oversized logo:



Since these things are really just commodity parts, industrial design would be a good way to distinguish them. Marantz seems to get that, sort of, but the others all look pretty much the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

[to add the full quote rather than the cherry-pick, here's what was edited out: "Nope. Room correction and dynamic loudness compensation* are far more relevant and material to sound quality than power for this particular link in the chain."]

*for those of us who often enjoy music or other media at lower volume levels, at least

Agreed, that was my point. You were previously disagreeing with this earlier

Perhaps my earlier post was not clear. So let me clarify, assuming an AVR of say ≥50W/ch output.

For everyone, Room correction is far more relevant and material to sound quality than power for this particular link in the chain, regardless of one's preferred SPL.

For for those of us who often enjoy music or other media at lower volume levels, dynamic loudness compensation (such as Dolby Volume's modeler, Audyssey DynamicEQ, etc.) is also far more relevant and material to sound quality than power.
Reply
Reply
post #243 of 331
3/20/13 at 4:42pm
Less models! Good Lord, going on Denon or Onkyo's sites will give you a stroke. Should be entry level,mid, high, flagship. That's it.

Simplified model numbers. What's the difference between a Marantz 2235 and a 2270? 35 watts. TX-SRmv-1330xdp¥~a vs SR-2638:$7-72)? One HDMI input.

Honest WPC all channels driven.

Lose some legacy inputs. There is no reason to have 7 S-Video inputs on a modern unit. One or two? Sure.

Good radio tuners.

Lose the "smart" stuff. Toasters have Pandora/Spotify now. Less stuff to go wrong, so they can concentrate on audio/video quality.


Cue the old man yells at cloud Simpsons pic biggrin.gif
Reply
Reply
post #244 of 331
3/20/13 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krutsch View Post

Abandon all of the source stuff (i.e. Airplay, DLNA, Internet radio, SiriusXM) - cheap, easy to replace source components do this much better, anyway;

Abandon video processing/scaling of any kind - cheap, easy to replace source components do this much better, anyway;

Abandon HDMI CEC - it causes more problems than it solves;

As a corollary to the above, standardize a version of existing HDMI flow-control methods to eliminate jitter from source components via HDMI;

Add digital-to-analog processing for zone 2/3, for all inputs; so, like the above, we can finally be done with any cable type but HDMI;

Focus on: fast, reliable HDMI switching (especially for troublesome cable boxes), audio codec processing with room correction and a simple, elegant on-screen interface;

Everything you said!
Reply
Reply
post #245 of 331
3/20/13 at 8:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

This got me thinking

I'd like a built to order AVR withou all the features and outputs I don't want. Might be cheaper too.

Yeah, I don't think so. Go ahead and give it a shot via a Kickstarter campaign.. be sure and post the link smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #246 of 331
3/21/13 at 1:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Let's see what the gifted amateurs among us can do. Modularize the room correction system, and make it open source.

What do you mean by modularize, sorry?
Reply
Reply
post #247 of 331
3/21/13 at 1:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

I'd like a built to order AVR withou all the features and outputs I don't want. Might be cheaper too.

I'd like this as well, almost like buying a car. But its not going to happen and if it did it certainly is not going to be cheaper. How could any A/V manufacturer produce a built to order AVR for less than they could a mass produced one? The huge costs of building a custom AVR would far out weigh any savings of the features and the outputs being omitted. A good example would be the firmware that would be needed for every built to order AVR. Say if you wanted an AVR from Denon without Audyssey or video processing. I would believe that built to order AVR would have to have a custom designed FW. That alone would be a huge cost and not something that any manufacturer would want to get involved with IMO.

Bill
Reply
Reply
post #248 of 331
3/21/13 at 6:47am
Dump the tuner
Dump the internet junk
Make it just surround sound
Out with CEC or what the manufacture calls it
2 HDMI outs, 4 to 7 inputs
Keep optical inputs and digital coax
No component or composite input or output
Don't call it a receiver
How about Audio Video Processor or AVP for short
What it does it does well.
Reply
Reply
post #249 of 331
3/21/13 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I'd like this as well, almost like buying a car....
..... A good example would be the firmware that would be needed for every built to order AVR.

Just like the auto industry you could do "option groups". That would allow for some customization without killing the economies of scale. A single firmware program would work. It would just use flags to avoid inactive option activities.
Reply
Reply
post #250 of 331
3/21/13 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil17108 View Post

Dump the tuner
Dump the internet junk
Make it just surround sound
Out with CEC or what the manufacture calls it
2 HDMI outs, 4 to 7 inputs
Keep optical inputs and digital coax
No component or composite input or output
Don't call it a receiver
How about Audio Video Processor or AVP for short
What it does it does well.

Nice ideas..
But it totally misses the larger mass market..
The brands build for the larger target audiences...
Basically a component AV processor/pre-amp..
But we didn't see any mention for retail price expectation...confused.gif
$299, $499, $999, $1999....

Without some confidence of the end-price and $ payback to cover R&D/tooling, the CE brands will not likely proceed..

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
Reply
Reply
post #251 of 331
3/21/13 at 11:02am
I wish we could get a receiver like the 5803 Denon with HDMI switching and the best room correction available yes I know it would be expensive but I bet I am not the only one that thing was a true dreadnaught class AVR and minus all but one or two of the legacy inputs.
Reply
Reply
post #252 of 331
3/21/13 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Quote:
Let's see what the gifted amateurs among us can do. Modularize the room correction system, and make it open source.

What do you mean by modularize, sorry?
I mean organize in a way that the room correction parts of the software interact with the rest in only a few well-defined ways. Your AVR is a module, because it interacts with your TV, speakers, and program sources through a small number of physical connections which carry only certain sorts of signals. Similarly in software systems, parts of program code can be segregated off so they are relatively independent of the rest. Here, the purpose to making room correction modular would be to make it possible to expose this part of the software to public view while keeping most of it a proprietary secret. Then, outside programmers could modify or substitute the room correction code using their own ideas and attempt to find improvements that others could use. It would become a community effort.
Reply
Reply
post #253 of 331
3/21/13 at 1:52pm

DATASAT at an affordable price less than $5000

Reply
Reply
post #254 of 331
3/21/13 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

I mean organize in a way that the room correction parts of the software interact with the rest in only a few well-defined ways. Your AVR is a module, because it interacts with your TV, speakers, and program sources through a small number of physical connections which carry only certain sorts of signals. Similarly in software systems, parts of program code can be segregated off so they are relatively independent of the rest. Here, the purpose to making room correction modular would be to make it possible to expose this part of the software to public view while keeping most of it a proprietary secret. Then, outside programmers could modify or substitute the room correction code using their own ideas and attempt to find improvements that others could use. It would become a community effort.

I see what you mean..
Reply
Reply
post #255 of 331
3/21/13 at 3:27pm
I would like 4 dedicated sub outs and manual equalization for all four. I won't be buying another receiver until that becomes reality. I'm very happy with my Yamaha RX-A2010 though.
Reply
Reply
post #256 of 331
3/21/13 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah_1014 View Post

I would like 4 dedicated sub outs and manual equalization for all four. I won't be buying another receiver until that becomes reality. I'm very happy with my Yamaha RX-A2010 though.

Not much of a fan of Yamaha anymore. Ive got a Yamaha, YPAO is terrible. Just measures the distance of speakers from a seating position, and mucks around with the volume. Not much dedicated to the sub. Is yours pretty much the same?
Reply
Reply
post #257 of 331
3/21/13 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I'd like this as well, almost like buying a car. But its not going to happen and if it did it certainly is not going to be cheaper. How could any A/V manufacturer produce a built to order AVR for less than they could a mass produced one? The huge costs of building a custom AVR would far out weigh any savings of the features and the outputs being omitted. A good example would be the firmware that would be needed for every built to order AVR. Say if you wanted an AVR from Denon without Audyssey or video processing. I would believe that built to order AVR would have to have a custom designed FW. That alone would be a huge cost and not something that any manufacturer would want to get involved with IMO.

Bill

Exactly. And the same is true for the "modular" idea.

I think this thread shows how mature the AVR market is.
Reply
Reply
post #258 of 331
3/21/13 at 6:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I'd like this as well, almost like buying a car. But its not going to happen and if it did it certainly is not going to be cheaper. How could any A/V manufacturer produce a built to order AVR for less than they could a mass produced one? The huge costs of building a custom AVR would far out weigh any savings of the features and the outputs being omitted. A good example would be the firmware that would be needed for every built to order AVR. Say if you wanted an AVR from Denon without Audyssey or video processing. I would believe that built to order AVR would have to have a custom designed FW. That alone would be a huge cost and not something that any manufacturer would want to get involved with IMO.

Bill

Not hard to do...
Why not have the Firmware features, modes available on a menu system, with the component connected to the internet. All of the target features and modes are already loaded into the AV component's memory but require an encrypted key to unlock and activate each one..
Each feature, mode would appear on a master menu with each having a check box and cost, if their box was the checked in the user's select menu system then after the user is done he submits his choices while the software has a URL to PayPal for payment. Once the account is settled, the AV component while connected to the internet would have its selected, respective features and/or modes activated..

For example..
The user may want Audyssey volume instead or Dolby Volume, or Audyssey XT32 or Trinnov, or Audyssey DX or DTS NEO-X or Dolby Pro Logic IIZ..
And the user only needs to pay for the features and modes he desires. Another option could be to have trial periods of say 30 days, if not confirmed and paid for by the end of the 30 days the feature or mode would be deactivated..

This could work just like tracks, apps or movies on iTunes..

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
Reply
Reply
post #259 of 331
3/21/13 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Not hard to do...
Why not have the Firmware features, modes available on a menu system, with the component connected to the internet. All of the target features and modes are already loaded into the AV component's memory but require an encrypted key to unlock and activate each one..
Each feature, mode would appear on a master menu with each having a check box and cost, if their box was the checked in the user's select menu system then after the user is done he submits his choices while the software has a URL to PayPal for payment. Once the account is settled, the AV component while connected to the internet would have its selected, respective features and/or modes activated..

For example..
The user may want Audyssey volume instead or Dolby Volume, or Audyssey XT32 or Trinnov, or Audyssey DX or DTS NEO-X or Dolby Pro Logic IIZ..
And the user only needs to pay for the features and modes he desires. Another option could be to have trial periods of say 30 days, if not confirmed and paid for by the end of the 30 days the feature or mode would be deactivated..

This could work just like tracks, apps or movies on iTunes..

Just my $0.02... 👍😉

It could work but I doubt it will happen. "Not hard to do......" I would have to respectflly disagree with you on that thought wink.gif. You description sounds as if one was making choices from different packages on cable or DirecTV. It would be great but again I doubt it will happen.

If it did the cost for a "built to order" AVR would be quite steep IMO. I would think AVR manufacturers would not want to give their prespective customers that much choice. A good example is that D&M did not include XT32 in the 3313, SR7007 or the AV7007. It appeared that D&M wanted those that wanted XT32 to spend the big bucks and go for the 4520 or the AV8801. If one has the choice of XT32 with no other options selected that will not make the AVR manufacturer that much of a profit. If an AVR has the capability for options that fees have to be paid wouldn't the manufacturer have to pay those fees even if the end user did not select them? I would be very interested to see a "built to order" AVR/processor with the option of Audyssey or Trinnov. I can just imagine the size of the memory needed just for those two options. Another thought is if one has issues with their internet connection in the middle of "building" their AVR eek.gif. One other factor that comes to mind is the build quality of the AVR itself. If you go for the stripped down model will you get the same build quality of one that loads up the option box (or vice versa)?

Bill
Edited by Bill Mac - 3/21/13 at 7:10pm
Reply
Reply
post #260 of 331
3/21/13 at 7:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

It could work but I doubt it will happen. "Not hard to do......" I would have to respectflly disagree with you on that thought wink.gif. You description sounds like if one was making choices from different packages on cable or DirecTV. It would be great but again I doubt it will happen.

If it did the cost for a "built to order" AVR would be quite steep IMO. I would think AVR manufacturers would not want to give their prespective customers that much choice. A good example is that D&M did not include XT32 in the 3313, SR7007 or the AV7007. It appeared that D&M wanted those that wanted XT32 to spend the big bucks and go for the 4520 or the AV8801. If one has the choice of XT32 with no other options selected that will not make the AVR manufacturer that much of a profit. If an AVR has the capability for options that fees have to be paid wouldn't the manufacturer have to pay those fees even if the end user did not select them? I would be very interested to see a "built to order" AVR/processor with the option of Audyssey or Trinnov. I can just imagine the size of the memory needed just for those two options smile.gif.

Bill

Today..
Processors and memory are getting cheaper and cheaper..
What many users are unaware of is the expensive royalty $ structure within an AVR or AVP with HD processing capabilities....
Dolby, DTS, Audyssey, Video guys all get healthy royalties... And for low qty models the royalties $ schedule gets even steeper..
Also if the buyer doesn't care about that feature or mode... Why should he have to pay for it..rolleyes.gif
Kinda like the premium cable or sat TV channels, if one want 1st run movies he hits the on-demand button and pays the $.. If not he does nada..

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
Reply
Reply
post #261 of 331
3/21/13 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Nice ideas..
But it totally misses the larger mass market..
The brands build for the larger target audiences...
Basically a component AV processor/pre-amp..
But we didn't see any mention for retail price expectation...confused.gif
$299, $499, $999, $1999....

Without some confidence of the end-price and $ payback to cover R&D/tooling, the CE brands will not likely proceed..

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
More power more money starting at $300
How often do home theater fans really use a tuner
I think the mass market wants video and video sound more then say the 4 seasons or hard rock.
Think I'll go watch TV.
Reply
Reply
post #262 of 331
3/21/13 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Today..
Processors and memory are getting cheaper and cheaper..
What many users are unaware of is the expensive royalty $ structure within an AVR or AVP with HD processing capabilities....
Dolby, DTS, Audyssey, Video guys all get healthy royalties... And for low qty models the royalties $ schedule gets even steeper..
Also if the buyer doesn't care about that feature or mode... Why should he have to pay for it..rolleyes.gif
Kinda like the premium cable or sat TV channels, if one want 1st run movies he hits the on-demand button and pays the $.. If not he does nada..

Just my $0.02... 👍😉

But what you are suggesting is not as simple as choosing premium cable or sat channels wink.gif. You make a valid point as to why "built to order" AVR/prepros would likely never happen. That is your thoughts of lower quanity models having steeper royalty fees.

Bill
Reply
Reply
post #263 of 331
3/21/13 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

But what you are suggesting is not as simple as choosing premium cable or sat channels wink.gif. You make a valid point as to why "built to order" AVR/prepros would likely never happen. That is your thoughts of lower quanity models having steeper royalty fees.

Bill

Quantities have a direct impact on royalty $ per unit..
At least for Dolby, DTS, Audyssey the lower unit quantities, pay a higher $ royalty. I know this subject well as we have negotiated royalty contracts for certain audio brands directly with Dolby, DTS and Audyssey.

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
Reply
Reply
post #264 of 331
3/21/13 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Not much of a fan of Yamaha anymore. Ive got a Yamaha, YPAO is terrible. Just measures the distance of speakers from a seating position, and mucks around with the volume. Not much dedicated to the sub. Is yours pretty much the same?

Sorry you feel that way. I have nothing but good things to say about my Yamaha. Crystal clear dynamic sound with punchy bass. I love the parametric equalizer, despite its limitations of only 4 bands, but I hope they improve with that with future models.

I'll tell you this with the Yamaha I was able to get my entire seating position not just my "main listening position" but my entire seating area pretty flat from 30-90hz +/- 1db. Took a lot of hard work and subwoofer placement plus equalization to do that. I guarantee no auto calibration software (without manual calibration)would have been able to do that in my nasty room that I have. I had a horrible dip between 41-48hz of -12db, 51-58 was about -5db and from 70-90 of -5db and that was on my right side of my coach. On the left side lets just say all those frequencies were peaking. I'll admit YPAO is not the greatest calibration for subwoofers, but I doubt you'll find any calibration software that is capable of calibrating a flat frequency response in my room based on the data I provided you.rolleyes.gif

Do you know how engulfing your system sounds when you have every listening position pretty equal? I'm not sure how your system is setup but I've been thriving for a flat response from all listening position for quite some time and I've been able to achieve it with much trial and error. biggrin.gif

My subwoofers aren't the greatest either Velodyne VDR-12 they drop off pretty quickly after 30hz, so that's why I was only capable of getting my system flat down to 30hz, hopefully by the end of the year I'll be adding two Rhytmik FV15HP.
Edited by ah_1014 - 3/21/13 at 8:53pm
Reply
Reply
post #265 of 331
3/21/13 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah_1014 View Post

Sorry you feel that way. I have nothing but good things to say about my Yamaha. Crystal clear dynamic sound with punchy bass. I love the parametric equalizer, despite its limitations of only 4 bands, but I hope they improve with that with future models.

I'll tell you this with the Yamaha I was able to get my entire seating position not just my "main listening position" but my entire seating area pretty flat from 90-30hz +/- 1db. Took a lot of hard work and subwoofer placement plus equalization to do that. I guarantee no auto calibration software (without manual calibration)would have been able to do that in my nasty room that I have. I had a horrible dip between 41-48hz of -12db, 51-58 was about -5db and from 70-90 of -5db and that was on my right side of my coach. On the left side lets just say all those frequencies were peaking. I'll admit YPAO is not the greatest calibration for subwoofers, but I doubt you'll find any calibration software that is capable of calibrating a flat frequency response in my room based on the data I provided you.rolleyes.gif

Do you know how engulfing your system sounds when you have every listening position pretty equal? I'm not sure how your system is setup but I've been thriving for a flat response from all listening position for quite some time and I've been able to achieve it with much trial and error. biggrin.gif

My subwoofers aren't the greatest either Velodyne VDR-12 they drop off pretty quickly after 30hz, so that's why I was only capable of getting my system flat down to 30hz, hopefully by the end of the year I'll be adding two Rhytmik FV15HP.

I think you meant to say.. 30Hz-90Hz...

Juts my $0.02... 👍😉
Reply
Reply
post #266 of 331
3/21/13 at 8:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

I think you meant to say.. 30Hz-90Hz...

Juts my $0.02... 👍😉

Haha, yeah I'm sure we all know what I meant. Is there that much a difference between what I wrote? I could have phrased it 90Hz down to 30Hz. Or is it best to start from the lower frequencies up?
Reply
Reply
post #267 of 331
3/21/13 at 8:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah_1014 View Post

Haha, yeah I'm sure we all know what I meant. Is there that much a difference between what I wrote? I could have phrased it 90Hz down to 30Hz. Or is it best to start from the lower frequencies up?

Not really..
Typical audio frequency measurements run from the lowest > the highest..
When I first read your post I though you left out a k for 30..
Thinking you meant 90Hz to 30kHz.. eek.gif
Then wondering what type of loudspeakers you were measuring..
No biggee just an observation..

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
Reply
Reply
post #268 of 331
3/21/13 at 9:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Not really..
Typical audio frequency measurements run from the lowest > the highest..
When I first read your post I though you left out a k for 30..
Thinking you meant 90Hz to 30kHz.. eek.gif
Then wondering what type of loudspeakers you were measuring..
No biggee just an observation..

Just my $0.02... 👍😉

I appreciate your observation. Didn't think I would've confused anyone with the measurements. I edit my post so I wouldn't confuse others.
I know the audio spectrum is measured from hertz and up, but wasn't really thinking about that when I made my post.
Reply
Reply
post #269 of 331
3/21/13 at 9:47pm
Wireless surround channels....
Reply
Reply
post #270 of 331
3/22/13 at 8:20am
smart AVR that can use a head phone with stereo mics on it for set up where you sit. just joking......
but smart enough to determine if all speakers are in phase with each other.......
now I use the WOW disc for that.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › What Would You Like to See in Your Next AVR?