What Would You Like to See in Your Next AVR? - Page 4

This.

I think this would be a fair point if I were asking for a reference system to begin with, which I'm not. I'm basically asking for a lowend 5.1 receiver to receive the high end makeover - as it is 5.1 setups get skipped over. thankfully Dennon still provides some real punch to theirs.

I'll echo the Audessey XT32 support and nothing less.

Would love to also have the ability to have multiple side surrounds with the ability to clone outputs similar to an actual theater. For long theater rooms this would be huge.

A lot of people have more complicated needs than myself it sounds like.

I just want a receiver that is all digital on the input side. I honestly don't even need preamp outs for anything other than the subwoofer, if it simplifies things.

Needs to have at least 4 HDMI 1.4a inputs, and I'd love if it had DisplayPort as well. It would only need one output, whether DisplayPort or HDMI 1.4a.

DLNA support would be nice, but not necessary. Same for Bluetooth A2DP support. Nice to have, but I wouldn't mind it if it didn't.

Some form of room correction and setup system (preferably Audyssey).


And then the rest of the cost would go entirely towards the amp section, which would only have to be 7.1, not any of the crazy fancy stuff that I'm seeing these days.

Edit: Oh, and a 12V trigger for my subwoofer amp. The Marantz slimline stuff is actually almost what I want, if they just went a little further with the idea.

Probably not the best place to post this- but if any home theater or other home electronics manufacturer out there wants to know what matters to the average consumer or ideas on ways to appeal to that average consumer, I'd love to talk to them outside of this forum. I believe I'd be able to give them input from the perspective of the average buyer in that market. I've got 750 some odd friends on facebook. I'm in my mid 20's. I'm pretty well up to speed on technology compared to most people. My friends and family have a diverse range of jobs in manufacturing, construction, education, retail, utility work, etc. I've made 55,000+ one year and been unemployed, paying 12 grand for school the next. I'm a very social person. I've lived in everything from a modest home in the country to a cheap apartment in Madison. I've traveled internationally for pleasure and nationwide for work in the utility industry. I come from an average upper-middle class family, my dad owns a small local business in the construction field, we are very close to even my extended family.. most of whom are also in the middle to upper-middle class lifestyle with a diverse range of careers. Because I have a strong interest in technology and enjoy researching the latest and greatest- most of my friends and family come to me for advice on electronic purchases. My point in explaining all this is that I'm in touch with that middle-upper class market. I know what is important to them, what they look for, and what they will and won't pay money to get. I also have a pretty good idea what is available, although I have nowhere near the home theater knowledge of many on this forum. With a technical diploma in the construction field, and a diverse work experience, I have chosen to go back to school for a dual degree in Business Administration and Marketing. I'm getting close to graduation, and have learned a great deal there. I am not seeking employment at this time, only to share the perspective of the average upper-middle class consumer that has disposable income. With my education, I've learned a great deal on how businesses are ran, and how products are developed and marketed. I understand some of the challenges manufacturers face when trying to understand their market and I understand what makes consumers in that market make the purchasing decisions they do. With those understandings and a relatively good understanding and interest in home theater coupled with my experiences with what the average middle-upper class household is looking for, I think I can give a unique perspective to any manufacturer who cares to listen. I know how business and marketing works, I have a decent understanding of the technolgy, and I know what makes the market buy equipment. With people coming to me for advice, the first thing I do is determine what they want and what they say they are looking to spend. Then, I see what is out there and give them a few potential options. What I've found is that people will pay unreasonable sums of money if the product offers certain features they like. Look at the car industry- these people live modestly, but still need to work.. they are far from what most Americans would consider wealthy. My mother only uses her computer to check her e-mail, and spent hundreds more for one just to get a lit-up keyboard! Even when I told her we could buy an aftermarket one that would be better and still save money. My brother chose his Dish provider because he could get a Packers logo on his dish... he could have saved 20 bucks a month and had more channels with another company but didn't because they didn't have that option. Look at smartphones- people pay hundreds for them and double the monthly fee for a device used to make phone calls. In all of these cases, the main function of the device is not what drove them to buy it. Asking hard-core computer enthusiasts what they want in a product would not have led to the back-lit keyboard that got my mom's sale. In today's world, many of things are being purchased based on factors that have nothing to do with the product's main function. A lot of the decisions in today's world are technology based as well. I have an uncle who chose the truck he bought largely because the nav system was more user friendly and resembled what he had in a previous vehicle. I'm sure he could have learned the different nav system or gone aftermarket- but instead he spent 35 grand based on that one feature, with very little influence from other aspects of the vehicle. A bigger motor and better towing capability would not have helped sell him.. Just like a receiver that can play Dolby logic 9 files, has RF, is air-studio & THX certified, Qdeo, has 64 bit USB dac, and YPAO DSP isn't what will appeal to the average household. All that is important, but put it on a spec sheet for the audiophiles to look at. Instead, advertise in plain English how it will make their media viewing easier, and what it can do for them. Knowing these people, I know what those features are and what sort of things they will pay unreasonable prices for and still feel happy with their purchase.

tl;dr? if any home theater manufacturers want to know what the average middle-upper class household wants and some ideas to help brainstorm future products to appeal to them, broaden your market, and get their disposable income onto your income statement, please let me know. I'd be happy to share that perspective. This forum will surely provide you with what technical specs audiophiles are looking for, but the average person has other features that are important to them, whether they realize it or not that could make or break their decision to purchase your product. I have a wide variety of experience with these people, understand their though process when buying new technologies, understand how business and marketing work, and think I could offer a unique perspective with some ideas on how capture these customers and their wallets. I'd love to share more of my thoughts with anyone caring to listen.

The average buyer is told what to by by either someone they trust or a salesman. All said in about 200 lines less than your post.

The "average" person is buying crappy HTIB setups, not AVRs individually like we're talking about here.

And what's with this "upgrading" thing? I have a stereo receiver from the '80s. Even with the 5.1 stuff, I see no reason to obsolete it in a few years. It will probably trickle down when I eventually get 11.4 and such, but for the forseeable future, it's staying around.

Modularizing stuff like FM would just add cost, not subtract. Stuff like that is super cheap to put in, so why not just bundle it all? It would just drive the cost up for everyone. Wifi, content streaming, bluetooth, that sort of things makes sense through dongles, but actual cards to do I/O makes no sense. The concept of making an AVR a home theater control system is interesting, but this could already be done, and other manufactures already make their own devices that do it. Many ethernet-connected devices, like Roku, Oppo, and TiVo, all support control for Crestron over IP, and anyone else could tap into the same protocols.



Most people need analog. The Wii, VCRs, and older consoles all need it. In my case, I don't need it, because I switch all my video through my DVDO EDGE, but if you're not using a standalone video processor, then you need the AVR to do it, and upscaling is a great feature, as it reduced the amount of input switching you have to do, and the number of cables running everywhere.

I'd agree no network switch, it's stupid... unless it can take one Ethernet jack, and then switch it out over HDMI with Ethernet or HDBaseT, which would really cut the cable clutter down. Especially HDBaseT, where you can run CAT-5 for everything, with Ethernet included. Of course it would require devices on the other end to support it too.

From my experiences that is not the case. I have a lot of friends and family that ask for my opinion when buying electronics specifically. There are also non-related products that I ask for other friends/family s' opinion on. Specifically to home theater- I agree that there probably are currently a good percentage that do little more if any outside research besides talking to a salesman...but there is no reason you can't change that. Just about all the advertising I see for televisions, receivers, speakers, media centers, and other home theater equipment either on Home theater websites, in home theater magazines, or at the home theater store. Most of those are only seen by home theater enthusiasts, audiophiles and videophiles... while it would obviously make sense to advertise home theater equipment in places home theater enthusiasts are likely to see it, you aren't reaching a huge portion of the market. People usually don't know they need a product until they are told they do. Hell, I used to not be so interested in electronics myself and was certainly late in the game to smartphones. I knew people had them, I had an idea what they did, but didn't see a need for them until a friend got one and started showing me some of the cool things it could do. As an avid fisherman, he showed me a very useful GPS/mapping app. He showed me he could check his email and facebook and how easy he could watch his videos, edit pictures, access his music, search the internet and everything else that appealed to me. I didn't read mobile-tech magazines or visit their website, I knew they were out there, I had even seen them at the phone store- but I didn't know I wanted one until someone told me I did. From my experiences, especially with receivers is that there are a whole lot of people who don't have one and have no idea what they are missing. By continuing to build products and market to home theater enthusiasts, those people are going to continue to not know what they are missing. Give them something they need, then market it to them. You are sort of missing my point when you say "The average buyer is told what to by by either someone they trust or a salesman.". The "average buyer" is already buying and should not be your target market. You've got them already hooked. You need to find "the average easily influenced person who has disposable income that does not have a receiver, doesn't currently have plans to buy one and doesn't yet know why he needs one", essentially, the potential customer. Market it for that guy. You're already selling to home theater enthusiasts, you need to find new customers. Make a product that can appeal to them, and tell them they need it. Advertise in places that non-enthusiasts with money will see it. I have a lot of ideas, obviously, and although I don't have all the answers- I do know the problem- There are too many people out there that have not been told why they need a receiver and there are too many receivers out there that are not being marketed to those people. Look at McDonalds marketing-

If Mcdonalds only advertised their burgers in their store, they would never sell a burger. People don't know they need a big mac until they see it on a billboard while driving home-
In the same sense, people don't know they need a receiver unless they are told so.

also:

If Mcdonalds produced high quality, organic hamburgers and marketed their burgers to Beef experts- they wouldn't sell many burgers. Instead they look at everyone that could possibly afford their burgers, make a product that will appeal to the most people and market it to those people.. even in places that have nothing to do with burgers. They offer countless burger options and toppings, accessories to appeal to the burger buyer like fries and a shake, and even cater their product to different people- maybe a tofu burger in one region and a shrimp burger in another. Then they advertise on everything from the tv at home to the billboard on the way home from work. Everyone becomes a potential customer, not just the beef experts. Yeah, they might lose a few of those high-quality organic burger lovers in the process, but they more then make up for it with the number of people in the new market.
In the same sense, receiver manufacturers make great products that appeal to home enthusiasts. But they really are not selling receivers to enough people. They need to look at all the people that can afford their product and make a product that best suits those people. Then they need to advertise in places that people will actually see it so the people can be told that they need it. Yeah they may lose the praise of a few hard-core home theater enthusiasts and audiophiles by having some features that aren't true to its roots- but they'll more then make up for it by the number of new customers.

Sorry for the long posts, just expressing my views in case anyone wants to hear someone else's perspective.

That sounds like a media server. Yet another source.

My point was if this was asked for say a year ago your request would have been XT instead of x32.
So XT is now bad for a $400 AVR?

Support for VST effect plugins (i.e. an ASIO host, built-in), four independent subwoofer outputs, and all channels have balanced XLR preamp outputs.
Edited by imagic - 3/14/13 at 5:44pm

I understood that part. The part you are missing is that new avr's (take 2012 lineup for instance) came out and the 5.1 system got a lower end audyssey implementation than ones with more speakers. So in even simpler terms, let there be 5.1 systems that get whatever is considered the 'reference' version at the time they release the current year's lineup.


note: i also want them to offer the better amps as well in 5.1
Edited by mo949 - 3/14/13 at 5:15pm

I hear you.
That is purely a marketing move by the OEMs.

Wait for the new line of Onkyos to come out and the fire sale of x32 818's will begin soon after.
You might pick one up for $500.

+1 on the underlined part

Fully assignable amps with independent:
On/off
Volume
Source

Pair them up for stereo or not. Use 5,6,7 channels for HT, and use the rest any way you need. That would make for some versatile sound equipment.

Thread quiz: Test your knowledge of the posts so far.

Whose "Return" key is busted?

Ease of use without planned obsolescence might be attractive to the mass market. Keep it simple for the millions of simpletons like me. I might be wrong, but it's my zero cent's worth. RebelwoaCloo.

If I could just get that integra of yours in a nice tiny package!

When I asked my another fellow enthusiast the question above, he answered a modular AVR. You basically purchase features, components based on what you need. I thought that was fantastic. But I think we can all agree that a type of AVR with modular components is not going to fall into the entry-level or mid range. i didn't want to limit this thread to price. I was simply curious to see what enthusiasts are looking for in an AVR today, and was there something missing that they would like to see in their future AV receiver. [/quote]

Here's a modular DAC... http://www.msbtech.com/products/analogDac.php?Page=../index

Alas it is only 2 channel and just a little expensive for my taste.

+1
Basically a TX-8050 with HDMI and FM radio left out. Give it some nice looks (and better amp - I don't know how the onkyo sounds), and I'll be all over it.

For a high end AVR, I still like the modular concept. However, I think these are unsuccessful for several reasons. If you look at the computer world,
"modularity" is the operative word. I used both S-100 and VME bus computers. For the VME Bus machines, the entire computer was modular, only the
bus remained. Need to upgrade the CPU, exchange that board with a better/faster CPU board. Need some other feature, add the board.

It is similar in todays PC. Need better graphics, dump your graphics card with the latest greatest from AMD or NVidia. Need improved sound and/or offload
audio processing, get the latest card from Soundblaster (or whom ever). Need a faster processor, swap motherboards. Need more power for all those new cards, put in a new power supply. (Yes, I know audio/video would be different.)

Looking at the backside of NAD T787, it looks like att the "expansion" slots are full. What can you add?? Also, it is likely the bus protocol is propiertary to NAD. Which means you have to depend on a single manufacturer.

In PC's you can find cards from multiple manufactures for just about anything. Yes, the modular cards would be a small marker. However, a small manufacturer
may be able to build and sell speciality cards for a NAD T787. What about a phono input card? What about something else? Yes, the cards would be
expensive but pays your money, takes your choice.

If you are referring to me, I apologize if my posts went a little too long for a public forum which requested input. My mistake, I did not realize you were required to read my posts. Thanks for your contributions to the discussion as well.

I think a full CMS with at least a 10 point grayscale and color gamut control should be added. Why should someone have to pay $1000 or more to buy a separate component (DVDO Duo or Lumagen) to do this.
As a plus it should be able to comunicate with Calman and Chromapure for auto calibraions.

Trinnov speaker correction software. There's nothing quite like it on the market. It really has to be heard to be believed. It's good enough that I'm willing to tolerate an otherwise buggy and primitive Sherwood receiver to have access to this software (only other option is a >$10,000 pre-pro).

Well, if no one reads one posts, then why post it in the first place. I did read the whole thread, but did not have the energy to read your two (must say extensive) posts. I read them diagonally and from what I saw, you have some points; shame that no one reads it completely, wouldn't you agree...?

In a receiver, what is the build cost of the amp section relative to the total cost?

I ask because there is a demand (as reflected in this thread) for pre outs. I assume that most want this so they can use the receiver as a processor for outboard amps. So why couldn't the big receiver manufacturers (Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc) make their pre-out equipped receivers with the amp section optional? Use the same assembly line, but for a certain percentage of units, just pass them through without adding the amp components. Then reflect the cost savings in the price. You could effectively produce pre/pro units without any additional R&D investments, or loss of economies of scale. The auto makers use this strategy with great success.

Are the amp components so cheap that it wouldn't make a significant difference in the build cost?

1) Dirac or Trinnov room correction with customizable curve
2) Decent DAC section
3) Balanced pre-outs
4) no amps
[5) no analog inputs]
[6) no video processing]

Not to go out of date so quickly, cheaper prices an better internals.