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Just how much better is 2 subwoofers? - Page 2

post #31 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

well those $104 subs will not be as tempting for me now, addiction cured Thanks

Starting with the Klipsch, RW-12d and working your way up the ladder, consider some of the better quality stuff for Home Theater.

If your budget can accommodate, at this price point, the Rythmik, LV12R seems to be the reigning champ.
post #32 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Starting with the Klipsch, RW-12d and working your way up the ladder, consider some of the better quality stuff for Home Theater.

If your budget can accommodate, at this price point, the Rythmik, LV12R seems to be the reigning champ.
thanks checked it out I do need a real sub shipping cost to Hawaii are a factor. I bought a router and circle jig plus clamps. I think I will go DIY on a real sub as building a sub should be more easy than my Statements cc I just built But I will save this link of yours
post #33 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Yes, co-located subs have a synergistic boost but that's limited in the sense of a 3dB boost and as more subs are added, the benefit of the co-location boost decreases.

This is slightly incorrect. Doubling the number of identical drivers while keeping total power and enclosure volume per driver the same gives a 3db boost. Doubling total power gives a 3db boost. So when adding a second colocated identical sub, you are doubling the number of drivers and doubling power per driver for a total of 6db increase. Now, when going from 2 to 3 subs, you are not doubling drivers or power, so you do not get a 6db increase, it's closer to 3.5db. You would need to go from 2 to 4 subs for a 6db increase. Then from 4 to 8 subs for 6db, and so on.

Here is a quick summary from this page:
Quote:
When two subwoofers are positioned close to one another mutual coupling is the fortunate by-product. This is due to the long wavelengths, associated with low frequencies, causing constructive superimposition. For mutual coupling the subwoofers must be place within ½ a wavelength of one another (85 Hz upper crossover frequency ½ wavelength is approx. 2 m). For example, two subwoofers give a 6 dB increase in acoustical output at the listening position - see table below.

Total number of subwoofers - SPL increase compared to a single subwoofer
1 - 0.0 dB
2 - 6.0 dB
3 - 9.5 dB
4 - 12.0 dB

If the subs are not colocated, the gain from adding more subs is completely location and room dependent. You may get more than 6db at certain frequencies, no gain or even lose total output. Below are FR measurements of 1,2,3 and 4 subs explained here:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=80



-Mike
post #34 of 143
cool so running 6 subs I should get a 18db increase over one sub. That makes it worth while then at least for the music. Thanks for the info
post #35 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

cool so running 6 subs I should get a 18db increase over one sub. That makes it worth while then at least for the music. Thanks for the info

If you're a drum and bass kinda guy, you should be right up there between Heaven and Nirvana. tongue.gif
post #36 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

cool so running 6 subs I should get a 18db increase over one sub. That makes it worth while then at least for the music. Thanks for the info
You might get an 18 dB increase in "headroom" as explained by Mike above. However, if you calibrate the subwoofer system properly, you won't get *any more output* at any given MVC setting than you would with one sub. You'll just be able to play the system louder. But that only works if your speakers can keep up. IOW, if you have 18 dB of unused headroom in your speaker system, adding 18 dB of headroom in your subwoofer system will allow you to use that 18 dB of speaker headroom. If you don't have 18 dB of headroom in your speaker system, the 18 dB of subwoofer headroom will be wasted, (unless you run your subs 18 dB hot, which would be basically un-listenable.)

The primary reason to get more subs is to place them throughout the room for smoothing of the response across more listening positions. However, Welti, in his paper entitled Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations showed that there is virtually no benefit to additional subs beyond 4. From their conclusions:
Quote:
Using very large numbers of subwoofers would result in
cancellation of room modes. For practical numbers of
subwoofers, there appears to be no obvious correlation.
When you consider the additional expense of using more
subwoofers, there is certainly no justification for using more
than four. To the contrary, it was observed that the LF
factor actually went down for larger numbers of subwoofers.

One subwoofer at each wall midpoint is the best in terms of
Std, Max-ave and Max-min but does not support low
frequencies particularly well. Two subwoofers, at opposing
wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the
midpoints and gives a much better LF factor. One
subwoofer in each corner also has good low frequency
support, but does not perform quite as well as one
subwoofer at each wall midpoint, in terms of Std, Max-ave
and Max-min. If cost and aesthetics are considered,
subwoofers at 2 wall midpoints is preferred.

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

But, hey, knock yourself out! smile.gif

Craig
post #37 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You might get an 18 dB increase in "headroom" as explained by Mike above. However, if you calibrate the subwoofer system properly, you won't get *any more output* at any given MVC setting than you would with one sub. You'll just be able to play the system louder. But that only works if your speakers can keep up. IOW, if you have 18 dB of unused headroom in your speaker system, adding 18 dB of headroom in your subwoofer system will allow you to use that 18 dB of speaker headroom. If you don't have 18 dB of headroom in your speaker system, the 18 dB of subwoofer headroom will be wasted, (unless you run your subs 18 dB hot, which would be basically un-listenable.)

The primary reason to get more subs is to place them throughout the room for smoothing of the response across more listening positions. However, Welti, in his paper entitled Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations showed that there is virtually no benefit to additional subs beyond 4. From their conclusions:
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

But, hey, knock yourself out! smile.gif

Craig
yes would be to much and wasted for watching news etc. for bass heavy music and some movies it will not be wasted and sounds great like kill bill vol. 1 love the sound of that movie
post #38 of 143
No idea why anybody would like the dynamics of that movie. tongue.gif

Kill Bill 1 - GOGO fight scene
post #39 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

No idea why anybody would like the dynamics of that movie. tongue.gif

Kill Bill 1 - GOGO fight scene
I watched this on the computer and it sounded not so good.
When I listen on my system my statements center channel speaker the clanking of the chain is so clear and crisp and with the bass up high the bass sounds good without making everything else sound bad.
the sound of the chain through the air swirling. it just all sounds so clean and clear without the bass sounding too overpowering. with the four subs i have the bass is scary making you jump maybe I am missing out on this in allot of other movies because my subs dont go low enough. I just love the sound of this movie. The action the music it sounds great on my system I watch parts of it like every two days plus it is one of my favorite movies. I should have the two new subs here tuesday cant wait to watch again tuesday with six subs.I only run the subs at 50% gain on the sub sounds cleaner to me but maybe thats just in my head. Maybe when I build a good sub to add to the mix I will have more to listen to on my system. I want to build a sub for only 25hz and below as that is where my subs start to drop off.
post #40 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

the sound of the chain through the air swirling. it just all sounds so clean and clear without the bass sounding too overpowering. with the four subs i have the bass is scary making you jump maybe I am missing out on this in allot of other movies because my subs dont go low enough. I just love the sound of this movie. The action the music it sounds great on my system I watch parts of it like every two days plus it is one of my favorite movies. I should have the two new subs here tuesday cant wait to watch again tuesday with six subs.I only run the subs at 50% gain on the sub sounds cleaner to me but maybe thats just in my head. Maybe when I build a good sub to add to the mix I will have more to listen to on my system. I want to build a sub for only 25hz and below as that is where my subs start to drop off.

The problem I see with your above multiple sub setup and wanting to get a single sub for the <25Hz is the amount of potential sub you have in the other four to six subs. What that means is, you'll need a killer sub to keep things strong when the other subs go sub 25Hz.

Think of the Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote when poor ole Wile E runs out of running room. It just don't work. tongue.gif

No matter how much you want it to. tongue.gif

So as to not put a negative spin on my comments, you've already put together and are adding on to an already screaming good bass system. I don't want you to go out and pickup a single sub in the <20Hz range and then be disappointed because it can't keep up with the rest of your "SIX" subwoofers. eek.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/15/13 at 4:00pm
post #41 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The problem I see with your above multiple sub setup and wanting to get a single sub for the <25Hz is the amount of potential sub you have in the other four to six subs. What that means is, you'll need a killer sub to keep things strong when the other subs go sub 25Hz.

Think of the Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote when poor ole Wile E runs out of running room. It just don't work. tongue.gif

No matter how much you want it to. tongue.gif

So as to not put a negative spin on my comments, you've already put together and are adding on to an already screaming good bass system. I don't want you to go out and pickup a single sub in the <20Hz range and then be disappointed because it can't keep up with the rest of your "SIX" subwoofers. eek.gif

-
I have enjoyed this talk. It will work because I will build the sub -sub myself someday I have too go slow with the wife factor.
I have not started reading yet but I will go hang in the DIY for a while doing research I will build a large folded horn or something and have it crossed over at around 25hz so it can focus just on low low bass for clean low bass. A killer sub for sure
post #42 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

A killer sub for sure

............biggrin.gif
post #43 of 143
Hi, this is my first post, so please allow me to jump in, as I am following the discussion and it speaks exactly to my needs.

I just made the plunge into 5.1, so I built matched center and main speakers, Madisound Zaph MTM designs. I added a couple of old small Mid/Tweeter surrounds I had laying around which I upgraded with new drivers for about hundred bucks, which now has a decent tweeter and cheap mid woofer. An Onkyo tx-nr717 is my first new receiver in 15 years. I am AGONIZING over this sub stuff!

I have researched this sub info to death, upgraded my knowledge base, and I am still completely unsure. I know what I like in music and what I like to hear when listening to equipment, which are two different things. I like to think I have some knowledge, but I lack wisdom. I have another limitation; a wife who HATES things that make sound that take up space in the living room.

I was also looking at the Klipsch RW-12D for $300. Just when I think I have decided on a single 12" sub with 250 watt power supply, I change my mind and think I need a couple of smaller 10" subs such as the Dayton Audio Sub 1000 10" sub with 100 watt power amp at around $125 each with shipping.

My usual philosophy is that for the same price, one quality thing is better than two less quality things, but because of the nature of the beast, subs seem to be different. I read further upstream that two cheap subs might have benefits over a single sub, so I am officially still undecided. I could afford something in the $500 range, but I'd like to jump in slowly at around $300 or so and evaluate for myself.

Please feel free to guide and advise me. All opinions are welcomed, and even if we disagree, I don't take things personal, and I always post with a smile on my face. cool.gif
Edited by wvu80 - 3/15/13 at 8:25pm
post #44 of 143
This is my opinion, but I'm starting to feel like the RW-12D is kind of like the entry level into 'real' subs. By that I mean it's one of the few budget woofers that can dig deep and have decent output for the price. If your budget is 500 though, you can probably go better and get something that plays below 20hz. I figured I wasn't going to miss that in my living room so the RW-12D is what I currently have. My next woofer will probably be a DIY dayton 18 sealed, but that's an entirely different matter. wink.gif
post #45 of 143
I know this isn't the best source material, but see what you think about this:
I can hear the tuba notes on my sub-less setup but it doesn't sound like what a tuba is supposed to sound like. We need a little more "oomph" in the "oom pa- pa."
post #46 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycholis View Post

This is my opinion, but I'm starting to feel like the RW-12D is kind of like the entry level into 'real' subs. By that I mean it's one of the few budget woofers that can dig deep and have decent output for the price. If your budget is 500 though, you can probably go better and get something that plays below 20hz. I figured I wasn't going to miss that in my living room so the RW-12D is what I currently have. My next woofer will probably be a DIY dayton 18 sealed, but that's an entirely different matter. wink.gif
seems that way least of the best. I think my jbl es250pbk are the best of the least better than bic f-12 and polk 505 just people are scared of them so many bad reviews amps going out. maybe i am just lucky time will tell had no amp problems yet with the four I have and with getting two more next week If I dont have any amp problems in the next few years I would think that they are not that bad or maybe people running them too hot for too long
post #47 of 143
Thread Starter 
Well I got both the BIC F12 and Klip RW12 running. I have to say they make one hell of a pair. I'm getting deeper, fuller, struggle free bass on all movies. What's great is I can even dail them down so I don't get base noise until the scene REALLY dictates it (80hz or less).

I have tested the Klip solo and the BIC in the opposite corner just adds to the overall punch in the gut feeling. Will be keeping both subs.
post #48 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrowyn View Post

Well I got both the BIC F12 and Klip RW12 running. I have to say they make one hell of a pair. I'm getting deeper, fuller, struggle free bass on all movies. What's great is I can even dail them down so I don't get base noise until the scene REALLY dictates it (80hz or less).

I have tested the Klip solo and the BIC in the opposite corner just adds to the overall punch in the gut feeling. Will be keeping both subs.

Did you run Audyssey after hooking up both subs?
post #49 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post


Please feel free to guide and advise me. All opinions are welcomed, and even if we disagree, I don't take things personal, and I always post with a smile on my face. cool.gif

Your always better off going with dual subs rather than one big expensive subwoofer.
Two subs will smooth out the bass response and address the room modes (standing waves).
post #50 of 143
Thread Starter 
No just when I switched to the Klip. But I kinda like it this way. I'm gonna keep it for awhile before I run calibration again. That way I'll notice whatever changes there will be.
post #51 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

I think my four subs look kinda good together but when i cram two more in there next week it will begin look not so good and kinda ghetto ish lol

Yours looks good...mine looked tacky.

post #52 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Hi, this is my first post, so please allow me to jump in, as I am following the discussion and it speaks exactly to my needs.

I just made the plunge into 5.1, so I built matched center and main speakers, Madisound Zaph MTM designs. I added a couple of old small Mid/Tweeter surrounds I had laying around which I upgraded with new drivers for about hundred bucks, which now has a decent tweeter and cheap mid woofer. An Onkyo tx-nr717 is my first new receiver in 15 years. I am AGONIZING over this sub stuff!

I have researched this sub info to death, upgraded my knowledge base, and I am still completely unsure. I know what I like in music and what I like to hear when listening to equipment, which are two different things. I like to think I have some knowledge, but I lack wisdom. I have another limitation; a wife who HATES things that make sound that take up space in the living room.

I was also looking at the Klipsch RW-12D for $300. Just when I think I have decided on a single 12" sub with 250 watt power supply, I change my mind and think I need a couple of smaller 10" subs such as the Dayton Audio Sub 1000 10" sub with 100 watt power amp at around $125 each with shipping.

My usual philosophy is that for the same price, one quality thing is better than two less quality things, but because of the nature of the beast, subs seem to be different. I read further upstream that two cheap subs might have benefits over a single sub, so I am officially still undecided. I could afford something in the $500 range, but I'd like to jump in slowly at around $300 or so and evaluate for myself.

Please feel free to guide and advise me. All opinions are welcomed, and even if we disagree, I don't take things personal, and I always post with a smile on my face. cool.gif
If it was me I would buy two rw-12d subs or one now and one later I would not get anything smaller or cheaper. I have allot of cheaper subs the rw-12d is a step up from mine I would have been more happy going that route I think but mine where so cheap seemed the most bang for the buck
post #53 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by slammin86 View Post

Yours looks good...mine looked tacky.

large subs look good but off balance is all.
I will have to stack my two newest ones on the side like you did but I think I will not like the looks,but should sound better with a sub higher I think
for the best sound I think I should have two rows of three side by side but no room for that.
post #54 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Please feel free to guide and advise me. All opinions are welcomed, and even if we disagree, I don't take things personal, and I always post with a smile on my face. cool.gif

A bit of understanding about Home Theater and the LFE channel and subwoofers, it's all about headroom or potential to reproduce the LFE mixed sound track. Much of what a subwoofer does is coast along, barely reproducing any sound and then "BAM!" the mixing tech calls on the LFE channel to reproduce a +20 dB sound effect and then nothing again.

"Wow! Did you feel that? Made me jump. How about you?" That sort of thing.

Music, such as your example is "low key" and pretty much continuous as opposed to the bass track of a movie that's an "EFFECTS" channel. The point, to understand the purpose of subwoofers and movie sound tracks, one needs to understand that it's all about headroom and the ability of the subwoofer to provide when the call goes out......give me twenty plus dB and give it to me "NOW!" "BAM, BOOM, BANG!".... and then back to sleep again.

As suggested by Thomas 1966 above, the Klipsch, RW-12d meets these standards. To what extent? It's all about the Benjamins and a person's personal expectations as the more one spends, the more they get of what the sound mixer expects out of theater based subwoofer systems but a "PAIR" of RW-12d's is an excellent starting point to see what's what and do a personal evaluation of do you want more or is this good enough. And yes, there is a point of excess and the esoteric but that's a different conversation. Realize in my comment that the comment is not a condemnation, just a statement based on my opinion.

For the purpose of music, the RW-12d will do you just fine with lot's of headroom for when you decide to rock out but as to Home Theater and the LFE channel, now the question morphs as the demands on headroom, in my opinion, are much different for Home Theater vs the demands of even the most demanding music sound tracks unless one is trying to fill a concert hall and then it's not the demand of the music but the demand based on the larger venue.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/16/13 at 11:53am
post #55 of 143
If you want a sub for movies, get one that is usalbel down to around 20 Hz.
post #56 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

If you want a sub for movies, get one that is usalbel down to around 20 Hz.
what is a low cost sub that goes to 20hz you would suggest?
post #57 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

what is a low cost sub that goes to 20hz you would suggest?

Allow me to encourage.

Would you be better served selling all the subs you do have and buying two or three better grade subs like the RW-12d with the proceeds of the sale?

I haven't forgotten that you have subs on order. tongue.gif

Sometimes people get locked into a mindset and loose sight of the ball. In this case, in my opinion, you'd be better served by selling all your subs and picking up a pair of subs like a Rythmik, LV12R.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/18/13 at 5:04am
post #58 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

what is a low cost sub that goes to 20hz you would suggest?

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-629&FTR=sub-1200

http://www.bicamerica.com/showpage.php?brand=1&type=8&spkrID=86
post #59 of 143

Neither of those subs would be usable down to 20Hz. You may be able to hear the Bic slightly at 20Hz with your volume near reference, but most likely not during normal listening.

I agree with Beeman, with the Rythmik LV12R.
post #60 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I agree with Beeman, with the Rythmik LV12R.

At $590 each those are hardly low cost subs. lol
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