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Just how much better is 2 subwoofers? - Page 3

post #61 of 131
3/18/13 at 6:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

At $590 each those are hardly low cost subs. lol

Actually, if the specification is, a sub that goes to a "USEABLE" 20Hz, they are low cost subwoofers.

It's all about the specifications and if one is willing to accept a less demanding specification, then the price will drop accordingly. So yes, at $590.00, the LV12R is a low priced, usable 20Hz, subwoofer.

Do you have a cheaper recommendation that will produce a "usable" 20Hz?

What's a real world definition, besides +/- 3dB for a usable 20Hz? Would +/-5dB be a more realistic standard or maybe a +/- 6dB? Does one have to go all the way out to +/- 10dB; half as loud?

.........confused.gif

I like moving the goal posts.............as long as it favors my team. tongue.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/18/13 at 7:16am
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post #62 of 131
3/18/13 at 8:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

At $590 each those are hardly low cost subs. lol

I wouldn't consider it low cost either. I was only commenting on the 20Hz goal.

Also, the guy spent $630 on 6 budget subs. I don't think he'd have an issue spending $590 on a great sub.
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post #63 of 131
3/18/13 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

I read in a thread that if the subs are in different areas of the room it will only smooth things out but if they are very close side by side or stacked there should be a increase of about 3 dbls for each one
Not true. Energy doesn't magically appear or disappear based on how close the subs are to each other. It remains the same. What does differ is whether the outputs of the various subs are totally constructive or not. Where HT is concerned that's a minor concern compared to smoothing room modes. Placing your four subs together may look cool, but it does nothing to address room modes. Spreading them around the room may reveal that you already have plenty of capacity.
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post #64 of 131
3/18/13 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Actually, if the specification is, a sub that goes to a "USEABLE" 20Hz, they are low cost subwoofers.

It's all about the specifications and if one is willing to accept a less demanding specification, then the price will drop accordingly. So yes, at $590.00, the LV12R is a low priced, usable 20Hz, subwoofer.

Do you have a cheaper recommendation that will produce a "usable" 20Hz?

What's a real world definition, besides +/- 3dB for a usable 20Hz? Would +/-5dB be a more realistic standard or maybe a +/- 6dB? Does one have to go all the way out to +/- 10dB; half as loud?

.........confused.gif

I like moving the goal posts.............as long as it favors my team. tongue.gif

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If I wanted 20Hz output I wouldn't look for anything less than -3dB at 20Hz. And I'd be wary of a manufacturers word on this, I'd like it to be backed up by other people's claims. This would be the safest bet.

If you knew your room gain boosted 20Hz by a few dB, then maybe a -5dB/20Hz sub would suffice.
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post #65 of 131
3/18/13 at 8:28am
Overall I believe having multiple subs is great solution but it can make the setup tricky. It allows you to lower the workload for each individual sub to get the same effect and it allows you to place subs in various locations to handle room modes and help even out the sound throughout the room. You however now have to consider what delays the subs may need, the interaction between the various subs (possibly cancelling each other out) and of course finding room for them. wink.gif

My wife thought I was crazy going from a single high cost sub to 8 low cost DIY subs until the first time we played a movie. The house will give out before the subs will so I can enjoy strong and clean bass without worrying about pushing a sub to its limit. I have an odd shaped room so I did both; stacking subs (4 high) and multiple placement. It took a couple weeks of lugging the subs around and reviewing plots until I found what worked best.
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post #66 of 131
3/18/13 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smbsocal View Post

You however now have to consider what delays the subs may need, the interaction between the various subs (possibly cancelling each other out)
Actually, you don't. You can if you want to, but in the average size HT room the effect of time align between different subs can't be heard. As for placement, it's critical when you only have one, bu the more you have the less critical the placement is. Simple rule of thumb, place them as far away from each other as you can and you'll be good.
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post #67 of 131
3/18/13 at 10:33am
And having cooperating acoustics is much better than a room full of terrible acoustics.

I hate terrible acoustics but terrible acoustics love me. They must.........I've attracted so many of them. tongue.gif
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post #68 of 131
3/18/13 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Not true. Energy doesn't magically appear or disappear based on how close the subs are to each other. It remains the same. What does differ is whether the outputs of the various subs are totally constructive or not. Where HT is concerned that's a minor concern compared to smoothing room modes. Placing your four subs together may look cool, but it does nothing to address room modes. Spreading them around the room may reveal that you already have plenty of capacity.
I have ben playing around with my subs one verses four, bass test on youtube. with four subs running it is much louder than one sub. low bass heavy music is really powerful much more than with one sub like a car. I can yell and hardly hear myself but what I hear is really wierd sounding like my voice is matching the bass waves like my voice is going through some electronic effect unit. one sub does not do this. Test tones I wonder about will the nails come loose in the walls. I know hearing lose.I only do this for short time periods for kicks during decent hours and no my wife will not stay in the room.with two more subs arriving later today I think. Should be somewhat better with six.for music not Ht I think this bass set up will kick the ass of any single subs out there especially as these only costing $104 each although the first one I bought was $299 four years ago.The only sad thing is they will not go to 20hz.I dont say these things out of ego I say because you say the only plus to having them side by side is for looks. Think of you are standing on the bank of a small pond and you drop a 20 pound rock and it makes waves. add five more friends all holding 20 pound rocks and everyone drops them side by side in the pond at the same time I think you will get a stronger wave.This would be added energy not magical energy. Now have have all six people holding rocks on different sides of the pond.The wave from everyone has only made more waves more evenly across the pond but not larger stronger waves just more areas of the pond have waves.
Edited by Thomas 1966 - 3/18/13 at 12:54pm
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post #69 of 131
3/18/13 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Actually, you don't. You can if you want to, but in the average size HT room the effect of time align between different subs can't be heard. As for placement, it's critical when you only have one, bu the more you have the less critical the placement is. Simple rule of thumb, place them as far away from each other as you can and you'll be good.
or as close as you can for renforced waves. I think if I had the room to stack subs in rows like blocks( two high three long) it would act as one large virtual speaker
Edited by Thomas 1966 - 3/18/13 at 11:19am
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post #70 of 131
3/18/13 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

I say because you say the only plus to having them side by side is for looks. Think of you are standing on the bank of a small pond and you drop a 20 pound rock and it makes waves. add five more friends all holding 20 pound rocks and everyone drops them side by side in the pond at the same time I think you will get a stronger wave.This would be added energy not magical energy. Now have have all six people holding rocks on different sides of the pond.The wave from everyone has only made more waves more evenly across the pond but not larger stronger waves just more areas of the pond have waves.
It's been noted from time to time in various places that I have a fair to middling understanding of how subs and sound waves work. rolleyes.gif
In small rooms, less than 2 wavelengths in dimension, room modes are what dominate response. Stacking subs will make it louder, but it won't make the in room response any flatter. Spreading the subs will do both. A wall of subs can also address room modes, but most users will find a wall of subs a tad on the impractical side.
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post #71 of 131
3/18/13 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's been noted from time to time in various places that I have a fair to middling understanding of how subs and sound waves work. rolleyes.gif
In small rooms, less than 2 wavelengths in dimension, room modes are what dominate response. Stacking subs will make it louder, but it won't make the in room response any flatter. Spreading the subs will do both. A wall of subs can also address room modes, but most users will find a wall of subs a tad on the impractical side.
thanks for your response as the first one stated only for looks and talked about magic. yes I have a big peak at 30hz and 50hz maybe try moving things around someday see if it helps thanks I would try three walls each with two subs but dont have anyplace to put them kinda stuck this way for now
Edited by Thomas 1966 - 3/18/13 at 2:45pm
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post #72 of 131
3/18/13 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

thanks for your response as the first one stated only for looks and talked about magic.
That wasn't directed at you, but as to the general notion that subs must be clustered to achieve mutual coupling gains. That's simply not true. What you will get if the subs are clustered is a linear dB increase across the sub bandwidth, whereas if they're not clustered you'll get varying increases depending on the distance relationships between the subs, boundaries and the listening position. It's those varying increases that smooth room response, as peaks and nulls are spread about when subs are spread about.
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post #73 of 131
3/18/13 at 11:48pm
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472I think a few years from now when budget allows I will do DIY two subs using dayton rss460ho-4 18 inch to replace all the 12 inch subs using a ep4000 for power.
but first I want to build the full size statements. so I will have to keep the subs I have for along time. but would the dayton be the most bang for the buck says they have a f3 of 19.6hz
Edited by Thomas 1966 - 3/19/13 at 12:51am
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post #74 of 131
3/19/13 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

I have ben playing around with my subs one verses four, bass test on youtube. with four subs running it is much louder than one sub. low bass heavy music is really powerful much more than with one sub like a car. I can yell and hardly hear myself but what I hear is really wierd sounding like my voice is matching the bass waves like my voice is going through some electronic effect unit. one sub does not do this. Test tones I wonder about will the nails come loose in the walls. I know hearing lose.I only do this for short time periods for kicks during decent hours and no my wife will not stay in the room.with two more subs arriving later today I think. Should be somewhat better with six.for music not Ht I think this bass set up will kick the ass of any single subs out there especially as these only costing $104 each although the first one I bought was $299 four years ago.The only sad thing is they will not go to 20hz.I dont say these things out of ego I say because you say the only plus to having them side by side is for looks. Think of you are standing on the bank of a small pond and you drop a 20 pound rock and it makes waves. add five more friends all holding 20 pound rocks and everyone drops them side by side in the pond at the same time I think you will get a stronger wave.This would be added energy not magical energy. Now have have all six people holding rocks on different sides of the pond.The wave from everyone has only made more waves more evenly across the pond but not larger stronger waves just more areas of the pond have waves.

I haven't read the whole thread - but when you are adding the additional subs in, are you calibrating the gain (either on the subs or your AVR) so that the combined subs output is the same as the single sub (75db)? If not, this is why you are feeling "more power" from the multiple subs. All you are doing is increasing the sub channel's total output so of course it will feel more powerful. rolleyes.gif
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post #75 of 131
3/19/13 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I haven't read the whole thread - but when you are adding the additional subs in, are you calibrating the gain (either on the subs or your AVR) so that the combined subs output is the same as the single sub (75db)? If not, this is why you are feeling "more power" from the multiple subs. All you are doing is increasing the sub channel's total output so of course it will feel more powerful. rolleyes.gif
I was replying to a response of more subs all together side by side is just for looks and not much else just trying to say I know the increase was not in my head as I have no meter.new subs just arrived as i am writting this have to paint my roof first but later today can hook up the new ones. cant wait! Yes of course it will be louder I am not complaining at all was just statting facts of how more is louder and I love it for music could be better for HT as no number of these subs will make for great HT. will move on to having just dayton 18 inch subs some year but for now it is just ok
At least I learned allot from this.
Edited by Thomas 1966 - 3/19/13 at 1:07pm
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post #76 of 131
3/19/13 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A bit of understanding about Home Theater and the LFE channel and subwoofers, it's all about headroom or potential to reproduce the LFE mixed sound track. Much of what a subwoofer does is coast along, barely reproducing any sound and then "BAM!" the mixing tech calls on the LFE channel to reproduce a +20 dB sound effect and then nothing again.

"Wow! Did you feel that? Made me jump. How about you?" That sort of thing.

Music, such as your example is "low key" and pretty much continuous as opposed to the bass track of a movie that's an "EFFECTS" channel. The point, to understand the purpose of subwoofers and movie sound tracks, one needs to understand that it's all about headroom and the ability of the subwoofer to provide when the call goes out......give me twenty plus dB and give it to me "NOW!" "BAM, BOOM, BANG!".... and then back to sleep again.

As suggested by Thomas 1966 above, the Klipsch, RW-12d meets these standards. To what extent? It's all about the Benjamins and a person's personal expectations as the more one spends, the more they get of what the sound mixer expects out of theater based subwoofer systems but a "PAIR" of RW-12d's is an excellent starting point to see what's what and do a personal evaluation of do you want more or is this good enough. And yes, there is a point of excess and the esoteric but that's a different conversation. Realize in my comment that the comment is not a condemnation, just a statement based on my opinion.

For the purpose of music, the RW-12d will do you just fine with lot's of headroom for when you decide to rock out but as to Home Theater and the LFE channel, now the question morphs as the demands on headroom, in my opinion, are much different for Home Theater vs the demands of even the most demanding music sound tracks unless one is trying to fill a concert hall and then it's not the demand of the music but the demand based on the larger venue.
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Thanks Bman, and Thomas66 further upstream.

You did a really nice job Bman with your description, it really helped to solidify my understanding. What I want is some good musical low end, a fullness with lower brass instruments, and some punchiness to drums. DVD movies with explosions with dynamic head room is low on my list of priorities.

Newegg is tempting me. I think when you click on something long enough, they send you a discount Promo Code. That Klipsch is now $289 delivered to my door.
+++

More advice sought, based on Bmans's points:

What if I got the Klipsch RW-12D or $289 for explosions, then get a second sub, maybe that 10" Parts Express for about $130 which would give me the tightness in the music I am looking for?

My AV receiver is a 7.2 Onkno TX-NR717. I never thought about it before, but with two sub outputs, can I do LFE and stereo at the same time? I know the outputs are there, I'm just not sure how it works with my setup.

My brain says don't deliberately mis-match two subs, but what do you guys think?
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post #77 of 131
3/19/13 at 6:30pm
Duplicate post
Edited by wvu80 - 3/19/13 at 8:02pm
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post #78 of 131
3/19/13 at 6:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

So in light of what you said, and keeping with the flavor of this thread...

---snip---

I want the musical support of a sub 80%, with explosions in DVD's 20%, less important. What do you think of the idea of an RW-12d for explosions, and something like the Parts Express 10" 100 watt sub for $120 for low end sound and some drum punch in my music?

The idea of deliberately mis-matching subs sounds insane, but wait! I have an Onkyo TX-NR717 AV receiver, which promises 7 point TWO. Can I run the LFE output for one sub, and stereo outputs for music to the other?

What do you guys think?

Just an understanding, there is no 80% music and 20% movie based sound track as there's only the accurate reproduction of frequencies.

Mixing subs is much like running through muddy water where one can't see what's below the top of the water. It's a crap shoot. Is the puddle shallow, deep, mixed, large, small; what's under that water? When one starts mixing subs, they better know what they're doing or they'll open up a can of bad sonic mojo and make themselves sonically sick.

Based on your above, it reads as if you're wanting to use the smaller sub to enhance speaker output and the RW-12d for LFE output. If I understand you correctly, you'll need three subs; two to complement the stereo output of the mains and a more qualified sub for the LFE channel. Yes, that would work but at the same time, quite likely, mess you up due to sound wave cancellation as the mixed sound waves will interact in an orgy of interacting sound waves, bouncing around the room.

Due to this, my recommendation would be to start by purchasing and integrating "ONE" RW-12d into your music reproduction system. Learn more about the interaction of reflected sound waves (cancellation and reinforcement), the subwoofer's parametric settings, the parametric settings found in your AVR's main menu (crossover, levels, distances, bass management) and then after mastering these settings, consider buying a second or third subwoofer. Go slow. Stating the obvious, this subwoofer based hobby is a long journey, not a quick trip and hopefully you'll approach this hobby from this perspective.

As encouragement, it reads as if you're ready so buy that RW-12d tonight, get it delivered and installed in your system and go from there.....you know you want to. tongue.gif
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post #79 of 131
3/19/13 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Bman's post #30:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463175/just-how-much-better-is-2-subwoofers/30#post_23088124

Thanks Bman, nice auditory description. That really helps. So in light of what you said, and keeping with the flavor of this thread...

Newegg is really temping me by sending me a Code for $10 off for the Klipsch RW-12d, now $289 delivered. I guess that's what happens when you click on a product a thousand times without buying.

I want the musical support of a sub 80%, with explosions in DVD's 20%, less important. What do you think of the idea of an RW-12d for explosions, and something like the Parts Express 10" 100 watt sub for $120 for low end sound and some drum punch in my music?

The idea of deliberately mis-matching subs sounds insane, but wait! I have an Onkyo TX-NR717 AV receiver, which promises 7 point TWO. Can I run the LFE output for one sub, and stereo outputs for music to the other?

What do you guys think?
most avr the point two is just a internal Y splitter. do what beeman says and just get the one rw-12d and see what you think maybe two subs if thats not good enough than step up to something better. I took this multisub thing to six subs today a little louder but not deeper. a couple dayton 18 inch would sound better and go deeper than my six 12 inch jbl subs I think. If you are at all handy with wood you could build two passive dayton 18 inch subs and buy a ep4000 to power them you would have very loud low bass for under $1,000 and not ever need to upgrade again unless you are a bass head like me. That is another option. I agree that mixing subs is a crap shoot. if you find the rw-12d does not dig deep enough dont buy allot of them and think it will help any for going lower just louder
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post #80 of 131
3/19/13 at 7:39pm
Nice comments, Mr. Thomas. Your point about buying something decent and never having to upgrade again has some merit. That's why I'm over analyzing this sub thing, because whatever I get, I will have to live with it for years.

So you think I should build a couple of 18's, eh? Did I mention I'm married, and I'd like to keep it that way? cool.gif
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post #81 of 131
3/19/13 at 7:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Just an understanding, there is no 80% music and 20% movie based sound track as there's only the accurate reproduction of frequencies.

Got it. I wasn't clear, but I meant my priorities are 80/20 biased towards having a good musical experience.

Mixing subs is much like running through muddy water where one can't see what's below the top of the water. It's a crap shoot. Is the puddle shallow, deep, mixed, large, small; what's under that water? When one starts mixing subs, they better know what they're doing or they'll open up a can of bad sonic mojo and make themselves sonically sick.

Makes sense. You articulated my guess, but I didn't really know what would happen.

Based on your above, it reads as if you're wanting to use the smaller sub to enhance speaker output and the RW-12d for LFE output. If I understand you correctly, you'll need three subs; two to complement the stereo output of the mains and a more qualified sub for the LFE channel. Yes, that would work but at the same time, quite likely, mess you up due to sound wave cancellation as the mixed sound waves will interact in an orgy of interacting sound waves, bouncing around the room.

Due to this, my recommendation would be to start by purchasing and integrating "ONE" RW-12d into your music reproduction system. Learn more about the interaction of reflected sound waves (cancellation and reinforcement), the subwoofer's parametric settings, the parametric settings found in your AVR's main menu (crossover, levels, distances, bass management) and then after mastering these settings, consider buying a second or third subwoofer. Go slow. Stating the obvious, this subwoofer based hobby is a long journey, not a quick trip and hopefully you'll approach this hobby from this perspective.

As encouragement, it reads as if you're ready so buy that RW-12d tonight, get it delivered and installed in your system and go from there.....you know you want to. tongue.gif[/quote

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!
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post #82 of 131
3/20/13 at 12:55am
smile.gif
Edited by Thomas 1966 - 3/20/13 at 1:41am
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post #83 of 131
3/20/13 at 1:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Nice comments, Mr. Thomas. Your point about buying something decent and never having to upgrade again has some merit. That's why I'm over analyzing this sub thing, because whatever I get, I will have to live with it for years.

So you think I should build a couple of 18's, eh? Did I mention I'm married, and I'd like to keep it that way? cool.gif
should ask your wife what she wants then
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post #84 of 131
3/20/13 at 4:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Got it. I wasn't clear, but I meant my priorities are 80/20 biased towards having a good musical experience.

I do understand. Uninitiated folks don't realize, one can't anthropomorphize frequency (sound) reproduction into a fractional based listening standard. A sub is an on-or-off appliance. In other words, it's either up to the task demanded of it (reproduction of frequencies at an amplification standard of +/-3dB) or it's not. And then there's this whole room based acoustical thing (echos) that is a natural based evil doer (exists sans humanity) out to ruin everybody's listening pleasure. A gremlin if you will and more important than the subwoofer choice itself, is the need to tame a room's acoustics (correcting for conflicting sound wave interaction; modes) so the listening experience won't be attenuated (nulls) due to poorly integrating one's subwoofer choice into a room's acoustics.

In the end, it's all about the Benjamins and how much effort one is willing to put into learning about subwoofers and a subwoofer's tie-in (conflict) with a room's acoustics. Sans taking the time to indulge what I suggest, one is blindly making a subwoofer choice with no hope for quality music reproduction. As an example, any live venue (performing arts center; indoor or out) has to have it's acoustics tuned so as to not destroy that what humans make with their musical instruments or any sound reproduction will be ruined for all those going to the venue to enjoy live reproduction of sound; music.

Quote:
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!

My apologies for trespassing.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/20/13 at 4:59am
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post #85 of 131
3/20/13 at 5:01am
Quote:
Got it. I wasn't clear, but I meant my priorities are 80/20 biased towards having a good musical experience.
Some subs are better for music than they are for movies, and vice-versa:
- My older, BASH-powered SVS PB12-NSD was great for movies, but it never sounded that great with music. I would not have recommended it to someone looking for a sub primarily for music use.
- The Emotiva X-Ref 12 was reputed to be an excellent sub for music. But it had limited extension (it rolled of sharply below 30Hz, IIRC), so it was generally not recommended to people who were looking for a sub primarily for HT use.

I have no doubt that subs still exist which are better for one task than they are for the other. Budget may determine whether a person ends up with a "compromise" sub or one that is adept at both types of tasks.
Edited by eljaycanuck - 3/20/13 at 5:32am
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post #86 of 131
3/20/13 at 5:33am
Properly dialed into a room's acoustics, a properly functioning subwoofer system will reproduce music and a movie based sound track equally well.

When one locks themselves down to a choice of either a RW-12d or a $120.00, 10" subwoofer, then what they have done is limit themselves to the inherent capabilities of those two subs. Whether one chooses music or movie based sound track reproduction, the choice of subwoofer has nothing to do with how well they will perform with either task. Depending on how well a subwoofer system is integrated into a room's acoustics, assuming proper integration efforts (+/-3dB within the scope of crossover settings), the sub's limiting nature and a person's sonic bias is the deciding factor regarding how well a subwoofer system will reproduce given content, not the choice of reproduced content itself.

It's all about the Benjamins and one's willingness to tackle a room's acoustical issues. The point, if one cares about these issues, they'll increase their budget and intellectual effort accordingly and if they don't, they won't; black-n-white thinking. For ease of integration efforts, three subs is better than two subs and without room measuring capabilities, all hope for quality sonic integration is for not; wishing, hoping and guessing.

The short version; reality is a harsh mistress.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/20/13 at 5:41am
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post #87 of 131
3/20/13 at 5:46am
Quote:
When one locks themselves down to a choice of either an RW-12d or a $120.00, 10" subwoofer, then what they have done is limit themselves to the inherent capabilities of those two subs. ... Depending on how well a subwoofer system is integrated into a room's acoustics, the sub's limiting nature ... is the deciding factor regarding how well a subwoofer system will reproduce given content ...
Exactly. If a sub's "inherent capabilities" and "limiting nature" mean it will do better with HT content than with music, then one should not recommend that sub for someone interested in a sub that will do better with music. And vice-versa.

However, if a sub's "inherent capabilities" and "limiting nature" mean it will do (very) well with both HT and music content, then the issue is moot.

Another example: The SB-1000 was recently reviewed by Jim Wilson. It is apparently a pretty capable little sub. But it has its limitations.
- For someone looking for a sub that does music well, and which offers decent HT performance - let's say 80/20 (music/HT) - that might be a good sub to recommend.
- For someone looking for an HT sub with strong sub-20Hz extension and tons of output, and which offers reasonable music performance - let's say, 90/10 (HT/music) - that would not be a good sub to recommend.

No amount of "acoustic integration" will make the SB-1000 satisfy the second set of requirements.
Edited by eljaycanuck - 3/20/13 at 5:55am
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post #88 of 131
3/20/13 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Exactly. If a sub's "inherent capabilities" and "limiting nature" mean it will do better with HT content than with music, then one should not recommend that sub for someone interested in a sub that will do better with music. And vice-versa.
If a sub's "inherent capabilities" and "limiting nature" mean it will do better with HT content than with music it's defective. Accurate reproduction is accurate reproduction, no matter what the source. The only difference between a sub that's better suited to music than HT is that it doesn't go as low. A sub that does go lower than the needs of music require should not work any less well with music content than one that doesn't go as low. If it does it's flawed.
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post #89 of 131
3/20/13 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Thanks Bman, and Thomas66 further upstream.

You did a really nice job Bman with your description, it really helped to solidify my understanding. What I want is some good musical low end, a fullness with lower brass instruments, and some punchiness to drums. DVD movies with explosions with dynamic head room is low on my list of priorities.

Newegg is tempting me. I think when you click on something long enough, they send you a discount Promo Code. That Klipsch is now $289 delivered to my door.
+++

More advice sought, based on Bmans's points:

What if I got the Klipsch RW-12D or $289 for explosions, then get a second sub, maybe that 10" Parts Express for about $130 which would give me the tightness in the music I am looking for?

My AV receiver is a 7.2 Onkno TX-NR717. I never thought about it before, but with two sub outputs, can I do LFE and stereo at the same time? I know the outputs are there, I'm just not sure how it works with my setup.

My brain says don't deliberately mis-match two subs, but what do you guys think?
You're misunderstanding the dual subwoofer outputs. Just because you have 2 subwoofer outputs doesn't mean you can do "stereo" subs, or even run different outputs to the two subwoofer pre-outs. Your manual says:
Quote:
You can connect the powered subwoofer with two
SUBWOOFER PRE OUT
jacks respectively.
The same signal is output from each jack
http://filedepot.onkyousa.com/Files/own_manuals/TX-NR717_English.pdf?CFID=2454328&CFTOKEN=37093083&jsessionid=f0305697ed33d92f7bc1695b57bb05211665
Page 14.

Therefore, you can connect both outputs to one subwoofer, (don't bother), or you can connect two subs which both receive the exact same signal. Those 2 subs are intended to be used together and the EQ filters are applied based on both subs running at the same time. There is no version of Audyssey that allows different EQ filter sets for the Sub1 and the Sub2 outputs. (There are some versions of Audyssey that allow different level and distance settings for Sub1 and Sub2, but the same EQ filter set is applied to both outputs.)

If you want to use 2 subs, your best bet is to get 2 identical subs. Place one in the front and one in the rear and run Audyssey. Then get some measurement gear and start really dialing them in. That will give you the best chance of integrating them in the room properly for the best musical and Home Theater experience.

Craig.
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post #90 of 131
3/20/13 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Exactly. If a sub's "inherent capabilities" and "limiting nature" mean it will do better with HT content than with music, then one should not recommend that sub for someone interested in a sub that will do better with music. And vice-versa.

A subwoofer is limited by their capabilities and will reproduce music and movie based sound tracks equally well. If properly integrated to the +/-3dB FR graph standard (based on personal research and viewing a boatload of graphs, I've been led to believe that this standard can be extended or loosened to +/-5dB), the choice of content has no bearing on how well a chosen sub reproduces sound. Note the repetition of my comment regarding the need to "properly" integrate one's choice into their personal space; the listening room's acoustics? If one just grabs and places "ANY" sub in a room blindly, then there's no standard in which to base any comments. No standards of consistency, then their can't be a rational conversation.

If one wants better sound reproduction, two things, they're going have to pay more and they're going have to learn about their room's acoustics so as to be able to properly integrate their choice of subwoofers into their room's acoustics. And if one doesn't want to do either, then they will be permanently locked into the inherent limitations of their current subwoofer choice until willing to change their ways.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/20/13 at 6:06am
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